Suppose the Vale knows Alaynne is Sansa...

[juanml82]

I agree, but it seem to me that he is over confident in his current situation. He is discounting the Vale Lords, and pretty much Sansa. He feels so confident in his current situation that he asks KL for tapestries? I think the Vale is smarter than he gives them credit for being and he may be a little overconfident.

I think he asked the tapestries to show the Iron Throne that he is confident. Which isn't the same as actually feeling confident.

I think the Royces know, and maybe Lady Waynwood as well. That doesn't necessarily spell good news for Sansa, though. Whoever presents her to King's Landing can get the Iron Throne's backing, even if is only paper, to unseat LF and become Lord Protector until Robert Arryn becomes of age.

[Phonzadellika]

Didn't Lady Waynwood refer to Sansa as "gently born and faced many troubles" or something to that effect? No noble would refer to a bastard as 'gently born'.

In fact, I wonder why Sansa in her POV doesn't get concerned that people are catching on to her act. I'd like to think that Sansa is a smart girl but that sort of stuff really makes me think that she isn't.

So, it's likely that the Vale knows. They probably won't do anything for now. Royce wanted to side with Stark in W5K, he's not going to hand over Ned's daughter to KL for execution. They're probably biding their time to find an elegant way to get rid of Littlefinger and plan on having Sansa marry Robert.

[Petyr Patter]

LF's plan to marry her to Harry and use the Vale's strength to retake the North is obviously not going to happen, because it was laid out in detail on-page and in this series, you can either see a plan hatched or see it come to successful fruition, but never both. The only question is how it's not going to happen. Will the Vale lords put an end to LF before he can do it? Will Sansa kill him to save Sweetrobin? Was the plan actually a lie, meant to string Sansa along while LF secretly plans to eventually have her for himself? All are equally possible I think, or more than one could even be true. TWOW will settle the matter.

I suspect Littlefinger actually plans on killing Sansa. The more I think about it, the more certain I become. I go into detail in the thread I linked to a few posts up, but consider the following bullet points.

1. Sansa knows Littlefinger is complicit in regicide, ordered the murder of Dontos Hollard, directly murdered Lysa Tully Arryn, and undoubtedly some other crimes I am forgetting.

Littlefinger is also guilty of betraying Eddard, and turned Sansa's friend Jeyne Poole to a whore. That same friend is now posing as Sansa's younger sister. Should Sansa actually return to Winterfell, they will surely meet. This would leave Littlefinger with some explaining to do.

With all this in mind, why give a person who knows you a murderous backstabber the combined positions of Lady Paramount of the North and Lady of the Lord Paramount of the Vale?

What does Baelish actually get if Sansa marries Harold Hardyng and reclaims the North? A friend in high places? As stated above, Sansa would almost surely turn into an enemy given enough time.

That line he told Sansa? For the love a bore your mother, I will help you? It was the same line he fed Eddard Stark. We know how that ended.

All this adds up to is a soon to be dead Sansa. I can only guess what he wants out of Sansa in the meantime, but she doesn't live through it.

Or, rather, Baelish doesn't plan on her living through it.

[Sansa_Stark]

It feels as though there's a whole lot of games going around Sansa and she seems to be unaware.

Pretty typical really.

[Ice Turtle]

• What does Baelish actually get if Sansa marries Harold Hardyng and reclaims the North? A friend in high places? As stated above, Sansa would almost surely turn into an enemy given enough time.

He just need a way to control her. If you control the king you control the kingdom. He was doing this with Lysa for many long years. Granted Lysa was in love with him but LF is already using two very effective strategies to keep Sansa behaving:

1, he is isolating her from all potential friends and allies posing himself as her only friend and protector, making her dependable on him, at the end of AFFC Sansa wishes he was in the Eyrie with her when he is away

2,good old blackmail. He has already made her an accomplice in at least three of his crimes and I think that he means to go further and make her partially responsible for Sweetrobin§s murder. It§s also possible that he plans to be the real father of Harry's children. Would you dare to go against the person who knows this about you?

[sarah.jenice]

I agree that the plan is not going to happen. Sansa will be Littlefinger's downfall. His obsession with her has already made him sloppy in telling her too much.

[Sansa_Stark]

I can't help but feel LF is "telling her too much" on purpose.

That's just me.

[complexphoenix]

I suspect Littlefinger actually plans on killing Sansa. The more I think about it, the more certain I become. I go into detail in the thread I linked to a few posts up, but consider the following bullet points.

1. Sansa knows Littlefinger is complicit in regicide, ordered the murder of Dontos Hollard, directly murdered Lysa Tully Arryn, and undoubtedly some other crimes I am forgetting.

Littlefinger is also guilty of betraying Eddard, and turned Sansa's friend Jeyne Poole to a whore. That same friend is now posing as Sansa's younger sister. Should Sansa actually return to Winterfell, they will surely meet. This would leave Littlefinger with some explaining to do.

With all this in mind, why give a person who knows you a murderous backstabber the combined positions of Lady Paramount of the North and Lady of the Lord Paramount of the Vale?

What does Baelish actually get if Sansa marries Harold Hardyng and reclaims the North? A friend in high places? As stated above, Sansa would almost surely turn into an enemy given enough time.

That line he told Sansa? For the love a bore your mother, I will help you? It was the same line he fed Eddard Stark. We know how that ended.

All this adds up to is a soon to be dead Sansa. I can only guess what he wants out of Sansa in the meantime, but she doesn't live through it.

Or, rather, Baelish doesn't plan on her living through it.

If you want me to buy this, you need to spell out why he hasn't killed her already, and when exactly he'll consider her to have outlived her usefulness.

[Slayer of Lies]

That anyone knows Sansa’s identity could end up being a moot point, depending on how quickly LF delivers on his “promise” to Sansa:

“So those are your gifts from me, my sweet Sansa... Harry, the Eyrie, and Winterfell."

As LF indicates earlier in the same chapter…

I had hoped to have four or five quiet years to plant some seeds and allow some fruits to ripen, but... it is a good thing that I thrive on chaos.

So what is the new timeline for her reveal, in LF’s mind? It does seem Sansa is to “win Harry over” prior to their marriage, under the stated premise that it will give Tyrion enough time to die, thereby annulling their marriage. But how much time does LF really need to buy, and - if exposed - might he simply “fess up” to his plans of uniting the Vale to Winterfell, since he claims to thrive on chaos?

To complicate matters, there’s also Shadrich, who may attempt to kidnap Sansa from under LF’s nose before anyone gets a chance to speak up, or before LF can act on his plans. And - if Morgarth is the Elder Brother - he may have a secret agenda of his own as well.

Generally, I agree with the notion that LF spelling out his plans means they won’t come to pass as stated, which could happen in any number of different ways – a covert plot by the Lords Declarant to “rescue” Sansa from LF’s clutches, or a kidnapping before LF’s plans hatch being a couple options.

Long term, I believe that Sansa seems likely be LF’s downfall, but I’m not currently sure how to reconcile my suspicion of the potential derailment of LF’s short term plans against Sansa’s rising to power per LF’s “script,” then later outsmarting him FTW.

[Petyr Patter]

If you want me to buy this, you need to spell out why he hasn't killed her already, and when exactly he'll consider her to have outlived her usefulness.

The quick answer is he'll kill her the exact same moment in time he killed Lysa Tully, the moment he thinks she will no longer do exactly as he tells her.

I have a suggested a longer scheme: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/99141-bad-news-baelish-or-purple-wedding-20/ .

I wouldn't swear by it, though. That's the thing with Littlefinger, he is always improvising new schemes. Yet, he also manages to bury the trail back to him. Even something like the murder of Joffrey, he is believed to be in the Vale when it went down, and the people who know the truth have a lot more to lose then him... except for Sansa.

So, I don't know what Littlefinger is plotting.

Yet, ultimately killing Sansa is one of the few things that reconcile his typically "keep your hands clean" approach versus the fact he is telling her his secrets.

[King Pellinore]

How do we know LF won't die in his sleep one night. One sweet night in a sweet sleep.

[Pod The Impaler]

Definitely. Bronze Yohn, for instance, seems highly likely to know who Alayne really is, and the conversation she has with Myranda comes off like one big test, especially when Myranda name-drops Jon out of nowhere. Like it's deliberate to see how Alayne reacts.

Even if Bronze Yohn did not send out Myranda to do that name-drop, he may hear about "Alayne" blurting out "Jon Snow" when told, and then it clicks.

I think Bronze Yohn is suspicious, and that suspicion may gnaw at him until he gets it.

However, if he thought it was Sansa Stark, what might he do? Ironically, Sansa seems safer in the Vale than she would be pretty much anywhere else. Bronze Yohn would wonder if Lord Baelish has already turned against the Iron Throne, and in the usual dishonourable fashion, is feigning loyalty.

[Slayer of Lies]

Bronze Yohn would wonder if Lord Baelish has already turned against the Iron Throne, and in the usual dishonourable fashion, is feigning loyalty.

That's a great (albeit simple) point.

I continually forget that LF is effectively harboring a fugitive, and that the Lords Declarant would likely attempt to blackmail LF by threatening to tell the throne.

How would delivering that threat go for them? Probably poorly, but ignorance and/or fear of failure would probably not be enough to stop them from trying.

Something going wrong in KL - anything from Cersei being removed from power to an attack on the city - would be just what LF needs to kick start his scheme, and deflate any power the LD might try to lord over him through blackmail.

[King Pellinore]

LF's power, currently, comes from Cersei. I don't think anybody named Tyrell would weep for him or Sansa.

[Bloodraven's Eye]

i would think his plan is marry her to harry have harry killed and then marry her himself to solidify his power same as he did with jon arryn and lysa