Possible Crackpot: Did Aerys foresee Jon's birth?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

"We all believe" - are you implying there's a single person that wouldn't agree that the 3 huge fire breathing magical beasts highlighted in the books wouldn't be a potential weapon against the undead cold-bringing magical beasts highlighted ion the books that've proven to be best handled by either fire or fire-forged weapons(valyrian steel/obsidian)? I think its a rather safe assumption and if that manages to offend someone then idk where to even begin. R'hllor Bless

We have no indication that dragons are effective against Others. Wights, sure. Others, no. And if dragons can hurt Others, it equally follows that Others can hurt dragons. I highly doubt he's going to make anything that clear-cut and easy, nor am I at all convinced that dragons are "good" and Others are "bad."

In other words, speak for yourself. And stay on topic, which seems to be difficult for you.

[J. Stargaryen]

Awesome catch on Aerion. Can be read literally or figuratively! Viserys also "thought" he was a dragon; when Jorah sneered at that, the obvious connotation was that Viserys was an unworthy individual.

Aegon III is a trickier case because he's called Dragonbane and yet seems to have actually been a good king, just perhaps not "exemplary."

Right, but he's not being called a dragon the same way the others are but a bane of dragons, so I think that's consistent. And, considering the events that led to his ascension, I'd say that's fair. Lots and lots of dragons, literal and figurative, died. ::hands you a tissue:: :P

[butterbumps!]

Would there be a broader significance this idea? I guess I'm asking what this would lead to-- a further Jon Targaryen clue, in that he's the prophesied dragon rising from the ashes?

The thing about dragon dreams is that they always come true, though, right? Are you thinking this occurred at the ToJ, or portends an event yet to come?

I'm just wondering given that dragon dreams always come true, yet this did not come to pass (and how specific do these have to be? I mean, Dunk and the field were identified in that one dream, which is pretty specific. Does that mean that KL literally must burn so that a Targ can rise from those ashes or does an alternate location work?) if this confirms that Aerys did not have a prophetic dream.

[XSarellaX]

According to this theory, would Aerys have had just this dream abbout a dragon being born about the same time as the sack, or could he have had more dreams?

Someone mentioned that his paranoia could have been fueled by dreams... Maybe he had visions of direwolfs, stags and lions bringing down house Targaryen and his attemps to prevent it were actually the reason it happened.

You know... like Cercei.

Of course, neither of them needed prophecies to become despicable people, but they helped.

[kiasyd]

"We all believe" - are you implying there's a single person that wouldn't agree that the 3 huge fire breathing magical beasts highlighted in the books wouldn't be a potential weapon against the undead cold-bringing magical beasts highlighted ion the books that've proven to be best handled by either fire or fire-forged weapons(valyrian steel/obsidian)? I think its a rather safe assumption and if that manages to offend someone then idk where to even begin. R'hllor Bless

"Potential", yes. However, I do expect GRRM to subvevert somehow this ideia, since the dragons being the deus-ex-machina solution to the others-problem is somewhat too obvious.

Did you have a chance to read "The Princess and The Queen"?

To me, the dragons are portrayed as a major pestilence. Who (besides a power-crazed Targaryen) in his/her sane mind would want such creatures around?

[oursisthefury69]

i was merely responding to somebody i didn't think that was off topic. I Also definitely don't buy that dragons are neccessarily good and others evil, and i guess we don't have proof magical fire can actually kill the others, but i believe the valyrian "spells" used to forge their superior weapons very well might have just been the use of dragonfire,(which would be better than normal forging fire) given that people don't seem to know how to forge it while dragons and valyria are gone. But truly they def could take out the wights, which assumedly is the bulk of their army, and i think it ll just be a matter of being able to tame the dragons to do what they need to do with them, wether its via a jon or bran warg or dany discovering the old ways of dragon taming

[butterbumps!]

Did you have a chance to read "The Princess and The Queen"?

To me, the dragons are portrayed as a major pestilence. Who (besides a power-crazed Targaryen) in his/her sane mind would want such creatures around?

short rant that seems appropriate for an Apple Martini thread:

oh god. I have to confess I didn't bother finishing that story yet. Moreso than the dragons, the Targs struck me as a "major pestilence" (I got to the blessed "dragonseed" discussion closed it in disgust. Smallfolk

enjoy the blessing of being raped by the Targ gods, ffs. that was enough of that for me), and I thought it would be for the best if I didn't add any additional fuel to my already low tolerance for the Targs.

[J. Stargaryen]

Would there be a broader significance this idea? I guess I'm asking what this would lead to-- a further Jon Targaryen clue, in that he's the prophesied dragon rising from the ashes?

The thing about dragon dreams is that they always come true, though, right? Are you thinking this occurred at the ToJ, or portends an event yet to come?

I'm just wondering given that dragon dreams always come true, yet this did not come to pass (and how specific do these have to be? I mean, Dunk and the field were identified in that one dream, which is pretty specific. Does that mean that KL literally must burn so that a Targ can rise from those ashes or does an alternate location work?) if this confirms that Aerys did not have a prophetic dream.

It might be as simple as Aerys believing that a dragon would rise from the destruction of KL and the RK, which both happened figuratively. Certainly there was a lot of murder and carnage. Or, as you allude to, it could be that Jon will become a dragon later in the story, after KL burns. In either case, I think the point was that Aerys might have had prophetic inspiration for his wildfire plot.

As I said up thread, there is some implied symbolism in destroying the RK and KL, as it is the literal house (re: residence) of House Targaryen. So, Aerys could have seen a dragon rising from the fiery ruin of the Targaryen's house, without understanding that his house was a metaphor for his House.

If Dany were to die, the name Targaryen might well die with her. However, another dragon could rise in place of House Targaryen. A dragon named Stark.

[oursisthefury69]

I def agree with u @kiasyd that that would be way too obvious and seemingly easy, as well as the dragons not being some sort of ultimate force of good. However when making the initial dragon comment i was implying that somebody may've intended for dany to receive the eggs to do good with them, wether it was illyrio who straight up hands them to her, Or someone much more mysterious like quaithe(There was a thread recently discussing the potential presence of quaithe in danys first got dreams) and that thread compounded with the idea that quaithe seems to be able to see the future to certain degrees made me think the dragons were given to her purposefully to be used for that purpose; whether or not they actually will be

[oursisthefury69]

just like a dream caused the targs to leave valyria saving their whole family and eventually westeros(granted there was many deaths because of them) danys dream helped her feel the need to hatch the eggs, which will further aid in the same mission the targaryen line has set out on (knowingly or not) since leaving valyria 400 years ago

[kiasyd]

short rant that seems appropriate for an Apple Martini thread:

oh god. I have to confess I didn't bother finishing that story yet. Moreso than the dragons, the Targs struck me as a "major pestilence" (I got to the blessed "dragonseed" discussion closed it in disgust. Smallfolk

enjoy the blessing of being raped by the Targ gods, ffs. that was enough of that for me), and I thought it would be for the best if I didn't add any additional fuel to my already low tolerance for the Targs.

Well said!

[Crimsonsmile]

"for all intents and purposes"

I'll keep that in mind from now on, however Aerys foreseeing Jon's birth? Now I think that's a bit of an overreach, if it's as you say then why would the Mad King attempt to burn his own city? We all know he's bat shit crazy and paranoid and that his descendants will be greater than him. The two kings could refer to any number of people The Mad King, Rhaegar, Robert, Viserys etc. So the likely hood of Aerys foreseeing Jon's Birth is unlikely because he believed he was the dragon. Sure he could have had dragon dreams or maybe he didn't, cause remember he was crazy afterall.

[butterbumps!]

It might be as simple as Aerys believing that a dragon would rise from the destruction of KL and the RK, which both happened figuratively. Certainly there was a lot of murder and carnage. Or, as you allude to, it could be that Jon will become a dragon later in the story, after KL burns. In either case, I think the point was that Aerys might have had prophetic inspiration for his wildfire plot.

As I said up thread, there is some implied symbolism in destroying the RK and KL, as it is the literal house (re: residence) of House Targaryen. So, Aerys could have seen a dragon rising from the fiery ruin of the Targaryen's house, without understanding that his house was a metaphor for his House.

If Dany were to die, the name Targaryen might well die with her. However, another dragon could rise in place of House Targaryen. A dragon named Stark.

Well, I get the symbolism-- that's there, no question. The problem I see is that if we're to attribute this particular Aerys delusion to a dragon dream, the issue is that it didn't work like a dragon dream-- those dreams always come true and seem significantly more timely to the occurrence of the dream than something to take place 18 years later, and from what we know, Aerys wanted KL to burn specifically.

If we're going to take this as a true dragon dream, the one it comes closest to (based on how dragon dreams work) is Aegon. As in the full city wasn't burned, but at least sacked, and "Aegon" was spirited away-- he's the "dragon" that allegedly "flew" out of the destruction of the city. (I hasten to add I do not believe the boy currently known as Aegon is actually Aerys' grandson, but I think it's the closest to what the vision would have supposed foretold).

Though this is still a slant translation, Dany would also apply; she was conceived the night Aerys literally stood over cooked meat, ash and charred bone (he raped Rhaella right after burning those Stark men). She was spirited away the next morning (dragon "flies" from KL) to be born on Dragonstone, but the conception, timing (depending on when the dream might have taken place), location and flight pertains to her as well.

I'm inclined to believe that Aerys "spice up my boner with wildfire" Targaryen didn't need an additional motivation like this to desire to raze KL-- I mean, this is the guy who's sexually attracted to fire. I know that's already a given and the point here is to look for something additional, but in order for this to pertain to Jon as more than symbolic (which I do agree exists), I think it requires twisting the rules of dragon dreams.

[J. Stargaryen]

I'll keep that in mind from now on, however Aerys foreseeing Jon's birth? Now I think that's a bit of an overreach, if it's as you say then why would the Mad King attempt to burn his own city? We all know he's bat shit crazy and paranoid and that his descendants will be greater than him. The two kings could refer to any number of people The Mad King, Rhaegar, Robert, Viserys etc. So the likely hood of Aerys foreseeing Jon's Birth is unlikely because he believed he was the dragon. Sure he could have had dragon dreams or maybe he didn't, cause remember he was crazy afterall.

No one is saying that Aerys foresaw Jon's birth in a literal way. But rather that he was foresaw the birth of a dragon. The argument here, then, is that dragon is Jon.

[Darth Visenya]

It's been coming into focus that Aerys had his reasons. The maesters had something coming for him and his. His family was potentially about to knock him off. The Starks were uppety. He heard the footsteps. Killing two kings of the north in that gruesome display in the throneroom was I think another attempt to nudge the dragon awake, even before the main city-burning try.

They're always trying to wake actual dragons, and all they ever get is a Targ comes of age. In a magical world, that streak can't hold up forever. Someone's eventually gonna wake as a dragon.

This post makes the most sense.

Aerys did have his reasons but I still think his plans to burn Kings Landing was still purely to spite Robert, not that there is anything wrong with that.

Also if I was the daughter of Darth Vader or Rhaegar Targaryen I would rather not know either, talk about embarassing dads!!.

[J. Stargaryen]

Well, I get the symbolism-- that's there, no question. The problem I see is that if we're to attribute this particular Aerys delusion to a dragon dream, the issue is that it didn't work like a dragon dream-- those dreams always come true and seem significantly more timely to the occurrence of the dream than something to take place 18 years later, and from what we know, Aerys wanted KL to burn specifically.

If we're going to take this as a true dragon dream, the one it comes closest to (based on how dragon dreams work) is Aegon. As in the full city wasn't burned, but at least sacked, and "Aegon" was spirited away-- he's the "dragon" that allegedly "flew" out of the destruction of the city. (I hasten to add I do not believe the boy currently known as Aegon is actually Aerys' grandson, but I think it's the closest to what the vision would have supposed foretold).

Though this is still a slant translation, Dany would also apply; she was conceived the night Aerys literally stood over cooked meat, ash and charred bone (he raped Rhaella right after burning those Stark men). She was spirited away the next morning (dragon "flies" from KL) to be born on Dragonstone, but the conception, timing (depending on when the dream might have taken place), location and flight pertains to her as well.

I'm inclined to believe that Aerys "spice up my boner with wildfire" Targaryen didn't need an additional motivation like this to desire to raze KL-- I mean, this is the guy who's sexually attracted to fire. I know that's already a given and the point here is to look for something additional, but in order for this to pertain to Jon as more than symbolic (which I do agree exists), I think it requires twisting the rules of dragon dreams.

Those are all good points. I was even coming to the same idea about Aegon/(f)Aegon myself, until I read Schmendrick's post, which seems to linguistically connect Jon to the wildfire plot.

The one point where I'm not sure I agree with you is that you have to bend the rules of dragon dreams much to make Jon fit. After all, the events of the sack are what made Jon the Targaryen king. Not only that, but those events also led to Jon being raised by Ned and becoming the man he is today; the LC of the NW, and potential savior of mankind.

[Jô Maltese]

Of note maybe is that nobody calls Dany a Dragon... but the Mother of Dragons. To be linked with the fact that nobody seems to have dreamt of her as a dragon? This could imply that she will just be essential to hatch (as Nissa Nissa?) the true Dragon (Jon?)?

ETA: spelling

[Crimsonsmile]

No one is saying that Aerys foresaw Jon's birth in a literal way. But rather that he was foresaw the birth of a dragon. The argument here, then, is that dragon is Jon.

Then your still overreaching cause there's no way to determine that Jon is a Targaryen cause we don't know if Rhaegar did conceive with Lyanna. We can only assume, but you know what happens when you assume. You make an ass out of you and me. Petty Squabbles aside, "Winter is Coming" so lets get on the same page shall we?

[dragonsrule]

If Aerys dream showed a dragon being born from the ashes of KL, I would say it does not refer to Jon since he was not born anywhere near there. It refers to something that will happen in the future when KL is burned.

[Iona]

I think it's safe to say that Aerys had been planning on burning the city for quite a while, don't you think? I mean, there probably wasn't an ample supply of wildfire ready, so coming up with all the batches that were hidden would require a notable amount of time. They didn't even have dragons speeding up the magic and stuff.

Do we get any hints on when he started planning this, does Jaime make some observation of a meeting with the pyromancers when the wildfire was ordered or something? It would be interesting if we could make out the timeline. I mean, if Aerys had the wildfire ordered long before things started going bad with the rebels, then that would give more weight on the idea that Aerys had some other motive for burning the whole city in addition to giving Robert the biggest FU in the history of Westeros.