Possible Crackpot: Did Aerys foresee Jon's birth?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

you don't care where there dreams come from? because I think that's a pretty huge factor in all of their dreams; and its a huge difference between if they naturally have these visions or if there being given to them from people like quaithe. coincidentally there was a thread recently discussing the possibility of quaithe being present in danys first dream (that brought her back from near suicide and on the road to hatching what we all believe will be 3 of the best weapons in destroying mans greatest enemy, the others) that was pretty convincing.

Honestly at this point, I don't really care. We know so little about the glass candles and how they work that barring further information, speculation is just pissing into the wind, and that's not the kind of analysis I enjoy participating in. The topic isn't where the dreams come from, it's whether Aerys may have had a dream about a dragon hatching after King's Landing's destruction that he (mis)interpreted as himself.

[oursisthefury69]

I guess the dream origins may not be revealed within the scope of asoiaf, but I still feel a lot of these dreams have directly lead to both destruction, magic, and potential good and it would be interesting if people walking the earth like quaithe were sending them, bu yet again we may not know by the end of the series, and id honestly prefer we don't figure out certain things like that, and the final 2 books highlight the struggle of the current timeline on planetos and the game of thrones; and then maybe explain the origins of planetos, others, cotf, first men, fire magic ect. in something similar to Tolkiens Simmilarion; Rather than spend the bulk of the last books fully explaining all the history

[oursisthefury69]

yea I get that the candles weren't spoken of until recently and barely so, and we cant really trust marwyn (even though I feel his lines were written very particularly) but I definitely agree aerys could've been influenced by dreams, but I think now that the candles have been introduced, its not just a matter of targs misinterpreting their visions, but rather people trying to purposely aid/screw with them

[Crimsonsmile]

Rhaegar was a good man I see no reason why Lyanna wouldn't want her baby to know who it's true parents are. Unless, it was born of rape and to a terrible man. Also i'm fairly certain that Rhaegar met Lyanna the same time the Mad King did, at the tourney where all the smiles died. Now the time in between, lets face it the King could have rape her and imprisoned her in the tower not to mention she was kidnapped after the tourney. Sending his son and his kingsguard to the tower right after he impregnated her. Tell me which plot line would have the most impact on the story in general? Jon's father was Rhaegar, or The Mad King? Cause the general consensus is that Rhaegar is his father but no one would ever believe The Mad King could be.

[Ser Leftwich]

yea I get that the candles weren't spoken of until recently and barely so, and we cant really trust marwyn (even though I feel his lines were written very particularly) but I definitely agree aerys could've been influenced by dreams, but I think now that the candles have been introduced, its not just a matter of targs misinterpreting their visions, but rather people trying to purposely aid/screw with them

The "people trying to purposely aid/screw them" could have been as adept at reading the flames as Mel. Also known as, not actually knowing what they were doing.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Rhaegar was a good man I see no reason why Lyanna wouldn't want her baby to know who it's true parents are.

I can think of a goddamn good reason: The child's own safety. Jon is kept ignorant of his parentage for his own safety. Kind of like ... Luke Skywalker.

ETA: I should also point out that this is not an R+L=J thread. One of those already exists and it's pinned at the very top of the forum. For the purposes of this discussion, R+L=J is taken as a given.

[oursisthefury69]

@Leftwitch The ability of these theoretical vision senders via the candles being either extraordinary or pitiful doesn't take away nor add to the potential of them sending the visions; and I think we can all agree there were probably several people with more power than mel at some points

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

@Leftwitch The ability of these theoretical vision senders via the candles being either extraordinary or pitiful doesn't take away nor add to the potential of them sending the visions; and I think we can all agree there were probably several people with more power than mel at some points

Again, the point of this discussion isn't where the visions came from or why they have them. It's whether Aerys had one that he may have misinterpreted.

[Mithras]

They're always trying to wake actual dragons, and all they ever get is a Targ comes of age. In a magical world, that streak can't hold up forever. Someone's eventually gonna wake as a dragon.

I think Shireen is the most likely candidate to transform into a dragon. Those greyscale marks on her are very similar to the marks on Bloodraven. Like Bloodraven, she is fond of a great bastard of the king. She is spooked by nightmares. She had a near-death experience same as Bran and Jojen.

In Le Guin's Tehanu, there was a half human half dragon girl, who has been put to campfire by her natural father. Although she was saved, half of her face was burned and fingers on one of her hands fused to a claw.

She fears that dragon are coming to eat her but I think she misiterprets the intention of the dragons coming to her.

[Crimsonsmile]

I can think of a goddamn good reason: The child's own safety. Jon is kept ignorant of his parentage for his own safety. Kind of like ... Luke Skywalker.

ETA: I should also point out that this is not an R+L=J thread. One of those already exists and it's pinned at the very top of the forum. For the purposes of this discussion, R+L=J is taken as a given.

Tell me how can a person trapped in a tower with no form of communication, who for all intensive purposes is a shut in. Unaware of the situation around her, know of the dangerous surrounding her child? The answer is she doesn't unless she is told by Rhaegar which is a bit of a leap cause Eddard would never have let Robert hurt the child.

[oursisthefury69]

and the point of discussion period is to spark new ideas nd view points, and I was agreeing with your op and it caused me to think of where the vision came from which was the next logical point for me and seemed relevant to the current discussion. Not being condescending but that's logical discussion and I don't get what else you want/expect outside of a yes,no from as many people as possible instead of extended thought processes from repeat posters

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Tell me how can a person trapped in a tower with no form of communication, who for all intensive purposes is a shut in. Unaware of the situation around her, know of the dangerous surrounding her child? The answer is she doesn't unless she is told by Rhaegar which is a bit of a leap cause Eddard would never have let Robert hurt the child.

She knew that Jon was in danger, that's the entire point of her extracting the promise from Ned and being in fear until he agreed to keep the promise. Obviously she had at least some doubt that Ned wouldn't hurt the baby, or else she wouldn't have been afraid before Ned said he'd keep whatever promise he made, which I assume was to protect Jon, raise him and keep everyone from uncovering who he really was, including Jon.

Seriously, if you want to argue R+L=J, please do it in the designated thread.

and the point of discussion period is to spark new ideas nd view points, and I was agreeing with your op and it caused me to think of where the vision came from which was the next logical point for me and seemed relevant to the current discussion. Not being condescending but that's logical discussion and I don't get what else you want/expect outside of a yes,no from as many people as possible instead of extended thought processes from repeat posters

I don't want to get this derailed into a discussion about what glass candles are and why and how they're used or what Quaithe is or isn't saying to Dany. It's about whether Aerys might have had a vision, if he misinterpreted it and what it might mean. If you want to discuss glass candles and the origins of these dreams, you can do it in another thread.

This is the last I'll respond to you on this.

The OP posits a very specific line of thinking and I would appreciate it if people stuck to it.

[Minstral]

It could be as you say Apple, that his attempt to burn KL is from some vision he had that has mentions dragons. Though perhaps the vision he had has not come to pass yet.

Aside from that is that, if true, it makes me think that perhaps the hereditary madness of the Targs doesn't stem from something wrong that they pas through biological means but that it is a continued price of their abilities.

Tell me how can a person trapped in a tower with no form of communication, who for all intensive purposes is a shut in. Unaware of the situation around her, know of the dangerous surrounding her child? The answer is she doesn't unless she is told by Rhaegar which is a bit of a leap cause Eddard would never have let Robert hurt the child.

That is a bloody big assumption, but perhaps we should not continue down this avenue. As the OP does not wish to.

[Crimsonsmile]

She knew that Jon was in danger, that's the entire point of her extracting the promise from Ned and being in fear until he agreed to keep the promise. Obviously she had at least some doubt that Ned wouldn't hurt the baby, or else she wouldn't have been afraid before Ned said he'd keep whatever promise he made, which I assume was to protect Jon, raise him and keep everyone from uncovering who he really was, including Jon.

Seriously, if you want to argue R+L=J, please do it in the designated thread.

I'm just saying maybe she made him promise to keep the secret of his father The Mad King which pretty much is the same thing as protecting him. Also i'm sure GRRM would want to bring someone down before he pulls them back up again. Cause Rhaegar is one thing, but the Mad king is something else entirely.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

It could be as you say Apple, that his attempt to burn KL is from some vision he had that has mentions dragons. Though perhaps the vision he had has not come to pass yet.

Aside from that is that, if true, it makes me think that perhaps the hereditary madness of the Targs doesn't stem from something wrong that they pas through biological means but that it is a continued price of their abilities.

That's an interesting idea, that it hasn't happened yet at all, literally or symbolically.

We know that at least some wildfire caches are still in the city. Perhaps he did see the city burning down from wildfire (as opposed to just the Sack), but misread the time. In which case the identity of the dragon is still up the air.

I'm just saying maybe she made him promise to keep the secret of his father The Mad King which pretty much is the same thing as protecting him. Also i'm sure GRRM would want to bring someone down before he pulls them back up again. Cause Rhaegar is one thing, but the Mad king is something else entirely.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/102002-r-l-j-v-68/

[Schmendrick]

Really interesting idea. And there's some textual support for it too.

One of Dany's vision from tHotU (ACoK, Daenerys IV):

Upon a towering barbed throne sat an old man in rich robes, an old man with dark eyes and long silver-grey hair. “Let him be king over charred bones and cooked meat,” he said to a man below him. “Let him be the king of ashes.”

Jon's thoughts after he killed the wight in Mormont's solar (AGoT, Jon VIII):

Whatever demonic force moved Othor had been driven out by the flames; the twisted thing they had found in the ashes had been no more than cooked meat and charred bone.

I always just took this to be foreshadowing that Jon was a "king." But it's interesting that George tied the foreshadowing to Aerys' statement about burning down KL ....

[oursisthefury69]

Aerys didn't need a dream to want to burn down KL, it was the next logical step for a physcotic,pyromaniac tyrant who was about to hand over his ancestors creation and capital city to lesser houses

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Really interesting idea. And there's some textual support for it too.

One of Dany's vision from tHotU (ACoK, Daenerys IV):

Jon's thoughts after he killed the wight in Mormont's solar (AGoT, Jon VIII):

I always just took this to be foreshadowing that Jon was a "king." But it's interesting that George tied the foreshadowing to Aerys' statement about burning down KL ....

I never noticed that before. I agree though, at first glance it just looks like king foreshadowing. Sort of like Jaime served a madmen and a drunk and Jon laughs like a madman or a drunk, etc. But that's almost creepy.

ETA: Expanding on this further, when Aerys said this of Robert, it was based on King's Landing being utterly destroyed, every living person killed, etc. A position of weakness. Inversely, the imagery as it relates to Jon is of a defeated wight; a position of strength. So what is negative imagery for one king is positive imagery for another.

ETA2: Oh and obviously the imagery comes after Jon has made use of fire in a constructive way.

ETA3: And because I know we're all curious: Aerys's statement about Robert (which occurs three times, in Dany's vision and twice in Jaime's chapters in recollection of it) and Jon's encounter with the wight are the only instances in the books where "ashes," "charred bone" and "cooked meat" occur in that combination and in that proximity to each other. It's also interesting that the specific combination of those terms and their proximity occur once in each of the first four books: Jon's wight in GoT, Dany's vision in CoK, and once in Jaime's chapters in both SoS and AFFC. Which makes me wonder if it isn't deliberately spread across the books to keep it in readers' minds. And because that combination occurs with Jon first, then with Aerys three times in a row, it's likely that by the time Feast rolls around, the phrase is seen as exclusive to Aerys and its relevance to Jon is probably forgotten or never even noticed.

[Harzoo]

for all intensive purposes

"for all intents and purposes"

[Schmendrick]

ETA: Expanding on this further, when Aerys said this of Robert, it was based on King's Landing being utterly destroyed, every living person killed, etc. A position of weakness. Inversely, the imagery as it relates to Jon is of a defeated wight; a position of strength. So what is negative imagery for one king is positive imagery for another.

Huh. I've been trying to puzzle out the meaning behind the reversal of the sequence of words shared by the two passages. That's an interesting possibility. Now that I think about it ....

Aerys burning up along with King's Landing would cause a "king" to become "charred bones and cooked meat" and eventually just "ashes." That's the sequence in Aerys' statement. The sequence in Jon's passage is the reverse, perhaps signifying a rebirth? "[A]shes" become "cooked meat and charred bone" with the next step being ... "king?" In the same chapter, shortly after this passage, there's foreshadowing of Jon being offered the Iron Throne ("He is not my father. The thought leapt unbidden to Jon’s mind. Lord Eddard Stark is my father. I will not forget him, no matter how many swords they give me.")