Does it matter if Aegon is fake?

[DrunkSister]

I thought everyone interpreted it as that? ^^

I interpreted it as Dany - the dragon mummers raise for the hero to fight. This is what Varys intended for Viserys: to go to Westeros and cause chaos and for Aegon to swoop in later as a savior.

In this interpretation of mine Aegon would be the 'stone beast breathing shadow fire' and Dany would have to slay both the lie that he is a Targ and the lie that she is a monster.

The house of undying scene was in ACoK, before Astapor and Mereen. Before 'dragons plant no trees'. By this interpretation of mine it might already be too late.

(if you are interested in talking about this let us either start a separate thread or pm me, I don't want to derail this one)

[Lummel]

...It would matter to the readers. Thematically, it would continue the motif of 'rightful king' that GRRM is using and it would continue to examine the 'power resides where people think it resides' theme GRRM is examining ever since AGoT.

I mean, for example, Jon Snow is hinted heavily to be Rhaegar's son and therefore the rightful king of Westeros and the Prince that was Promised. Aegon the Fake (if he is) would thematically be his foil.

Now, we don't actually know how this will play out and where GRRM is going with this but even if it just remains on the level of parallels, hints and metaphors - it still has meaning.

Even if Aegon were to end up King of Westeros in the end, and Jon to die defending the Realms of Men never having found out about his parents and heritage - it would still be meaningful IMO...

Yes I agree it will be meaningful to us as readers and I suppose that fact that we can see a lot of threads about Aegon's legitimacy shows how important the idea is to us already.

Although it seems to be that the theme of power and leadership is a dance around the notion of 'rightful king' (or 'rightful ruler'). One idea that some characters in the book strongly believe in is hereditary rightfulness that it's in the blood. That's pretty much the Rhaegar idea. Rhaegar's kid is the prince who is promised, it doesn't matter what happens to that child the promise will be fulfilled. However at the same there is an book criticism in that we see that children don't necessarily represent the best aspects of their parents. Birth is something of a lottery.

The theme is also a dance when it comes to ideas of power. There are formal leaders and people who wield power informally. We can ask from the book what is a king? A person that wears the crown, or the person who does the job? Who has power? The head that wears the crown or the person who whispers in the ear of that crowned head?

Also we clearly see contingency at work. Bob was a great guy on the battlefield but a poor king. Jon at the beginning of AGOT was an entitled spoiled brat, but by the end of ASOS he's fairly decent because he's had experiences that he learnt from and good role models. What then would make Jon a rightful ruler? His born nature or how he's been nurtured? Can he only be regarded as a true king if he wears a crown in King's Landing or if he does the job of a true king by defending his people, being a fair judge and providing leadership?

[King Tyrion I]

To the highborn people it will matter - because it's a question of trust among peers and therefore equals.

The lowborn won't mind, I guess, because they follow because of their bond to their superiors. And if their superiors don't support (f)Aegon, they won't either.

[Darkbringer]

Its only important if people find out, and can prove it. he has the Targ characteristics, and is supported by JonCon, a Targ man to the core. The only suspicious thing is that he has the GC behind him. Quite frankly I don't think that either Varys, Illyrio or the GC would mind if he went on being called a Targ as king, as the blood oath would be fulfilled.

PS I am a big blackfyre fan, not of all of them, but as a whole, and they are a great narrative.

[Roddy the Ruin]

:agree: When it comes to war, people will make their own minds up to whether he's Targ or Blackfyre. But it's also important as it will cause the second Dance of the Dragons.

the irony of that is while Dany and fAegon are at each other's throats Jon will be sittin pretty in WF as King Regent of the North and when all is said and done he will be the King of Westeros.

[Warden of the Cheesy]

In the grand scheme of things: No, it doesn't matter whether he is fake or not.
For example: I have an army of over 100,000 men. If I want the IT, my family name could be Crapface and if I can win the IT, by all means if I can take it, it's mine.

It matters for storytelling purposes, yes of course. I fully 100% agree with anyone who says they want the identity of Aegon confirmed regardless of what it is.

I think if Aegon is Illyrio's son as speculated, that is enough motivation for him to want him on the IT, he has a claim, the family name matters not to him.

[Hajk]

IIRC, Aegon's own followers and the GC are already aware of the fact that their claim lacks much credibility and believe that Dany's accepting him will give him legitimacy in people's eyes. Harry Strickland mentions:

Has the sun curdled your brains, Flowers? We need the girl. We need the marriage. If Daenerys accepts our princeling and takes him for her consort, the Seven Kingdoms will do the same. Without her, the lords will only mock his claim and brand him a fraud and a pretender.

And at the conclusion of ADwD

The Battle of the Bells had proved the truth of that. Ser Kevan had expected that afterward Aerys would have no choice but to summon Tywin once more ... but the Mad King had turned to the Lords Chelsted and Rossart instead, and paid for it with life and crown. That was all so long ago, though. If this is indeed Jon Connington, he will be a different man. Older, harder, more seasoned ... more dangerous. "Connington may have more than the Golden Company. It is said he has a Targaryen pretender."

"A feigned boy is what he has," said Randyll Tarly. "That may be. Or not." Kevan Lannister had been here, in this very hall when Tywin had laid the bodies of Prince Rhaegar's children at the foot of the Iron Throne, wrapped up in crimson cloaks. The girl had been recognizably the Princess Rhaenys, but the boy ... a faceless horror of bone and brain and gore, a few hanks of fair hair. None of us looked long. Tywin said that it was Prince Aegon, and we took him at his word. "We have these tales coming from the east as well. A second Targaryen, and one whose blood no man can question. Daenerys Stormborn."

"As mad as her father," declared Lord Mace Tyrell.

That would be the same father that Highgarden and House Tyrell supported to the bitter end and well beyond. "Mad she may be," Ser Kevan said, "but with so much smoke drifting west, surely there must be some fire burning in the east."

Grand Maester Pycelle bobbed his head. "Dragons. These same stories have reached Oldtown. Too many to discount. A silver-haired queen with three dragons."

"At the far end of the world," said Mace Tyrell. "Queen of Slaver's Bay, aye. She is welcome to it."

"On that we can agree," Ser Kevan said, "but the girl is of the blood of Aegon the Conqueror, and I do not think she will be content to remain in Meereen forever. If she should reach these shores and join her strength to Lord Connington and this prince of his, feigned or no ... we must destroy Connington and his pretender now, before Daenerys Stormborn can come west."

Dany's claim of legitimacy is the uncontroversial one. Whether she adds to Aegon's or refutes it will be quite significant to Varys' gambit. My feeling is that Varys and Illyrio probably realized this and therefore wanted him to marry Dany. Tyrion's advice and Aegon's independence threw a wrench in this plan.

As an example, if Anna Anderson had been embraced as legitimate by the living family, it seems doubtful that too many would have doubted her veracity.

His legitimacy is also significant in terms of Dornish support. I doubt that the Martells will support him if they learn that he is false. That could be a serious blow to his attempt.

[The Mother of The Others]

This is a long held opinion of mine, that he's going to entertain either way. So haters gonna hate on his inverted heraldry, but as long as the finale inverts our hearts (by making us do flips emotionally) that's all that matters.

[Hajk]

the irony of that is while Dany and fAegon are at each other's throats Jon will be sittin pretty in WF as King Regent of the North and when all is said and done he will be the King of Westeros.

Jon is much more likely to be working his ass off to do whatever he can to stop the looming apocalypse and will probably be sick and tired of the fact that the petty game of thrones is distracting everyone from the actual threat.

[PancakeMountainThatRides]

Dany's claim of legitimacy is the uncontroversial one. Whether she adds to Aegon's or refutes it will be quite significant to Varys' gambit. My feeling is that Varys and Illyrio probably realized this and therefore wanted him to marry Dany. Tyrion's advice and Aegon's independence threw a wrench in this plan.

As an example, if Anna Anderson had been embraced as legitimate by the living family, it seems doubtful that too many would have doubted her veracity.

His legitimacy is also significant in terms of Dornish support. I doubt that the Martells will support him if they learn that he is false. That could be a serious blow to his attempt.

That's the thing, though, isn't it. If she rolls up and says she's not going to marry him because he's fake, what actual proof does she have that he is? And since he has a stronger claim than her, they can easily say she's just jealous because he's the rightful king, so of course she'll make up stuff and say he's fake. No one can really prove he's fake since they don't have DNA tests. Not to mention, Dany wasn't even born yet when Aegon "died". It's not as if she has any first hand knowledge of... well, any of her family, really. I don't think her word will hold a lot of weight with anyone who isn't going to support her regardless of his legitimacy. As for the Martells... After the Quentyn bit, I'm of the opinion they won't be all that fond of Dany.

Btw, hi, Hajk! Haven't seen you since we proved beyond a doubt Grey Wind was Grey Worm! :D

[Blugenes]

Aegon will have reasonable doubt on his side. No one is likely to admit to getting a good enough look at the face of the dead boy whose brains were smashed in by Gregor Clegane Robert Strong to know the difference. Tywin and the Lannister/Tyrells will deny his inheritance but ultimately I think that it becomes he said - she said. Given the aftermath of the war and the promise of likely stability under Rhaegar's son they will certainly attract followers, but more from the Riverlands than areas less affected by the war (Reach, Lannister lands, Crownlands). While the warfare ménage a trois of Iron Throne-Dany-Aegon plays out, Littlefinger and Jon-Stan will be marshaling forces and gathering resources to take out the winner and defend the Wall.

[sleath56]

Personally I don't mind or care. (as long as he turns out be a competent king)

Westeros (High and Low) won't care either if he is a competent ruler.

No one is going to nit-pick if a Blackfyre is a Targaryen when a Baratheon has been on the throne and that Blackfyre brings peace (or at least brings back some stability), people have higher priorities than that.

The only people that would oppose him are those that have their own king-making agenda,

If he is a bad king however... he can go throw himself and his walking greyscale vassals to Asshai for all I care.

[Hajk]

That's the thing, though, isn't it. If she rolls up and says she's not going to marry him because he's fake, what actual proof does she have that he is? And since he has a stronger claim than her, they can easily say she's just jealous because he's the rightful king, so of course she'll make up stuff and say he's fake. No one can really prove he's fake since they don't have DNA tests. Not to mention, Dany wasn't even born yet when Aegon "died". It's not as if she has any first hand knowledge of... well, any of her family, really. I don't think her word will hold a lot of weight with anyone who isn't going to support her regardless of his legitimacy. As for the Martells... After the Quentyn bit, I'm of the opinion they won't be all that fond of Dany.

There are two different kinds of strength's of claims under consideration here.

1) The strength of the claim to the Iron Throne.

2) The strength of the claim that the person is who s/he claims to be.

On 1) Aegon Targaryen (assuming he is alive) clearly trumps Dany. However, 1) depends on 2) for credibility, and on 2) Dany trumps Aegon. the story of his death is very well known. For Dany to accept him, she would be making a 'declaration against interest' which would make no sense unless she truly regarded him as family. I think Dany's endorsement would effectively put the burden of evidence on those who said that he was false rather than those who said that he was legit. The quotes I provided seem to confirm this reading too. Currently the burden of evidence is on his supporters. This is a different society from our current one, and the word of nobility on the legitimacy or lack thereof of a family member is of paramount importance.

Btw, hi, Hajk! Haven't seen you since we proved beyond a doubt Grey Wind was Grey Worm! :D

It seems most tragic that the brilliant insights that went into that thread have been lost to most. Currently I am working to identify Hot Pie as the legitimate heir to the Iron Throne, but the evidence is not as substantial as it was for the Grey Wind=Grey Worm theory.

[PancakeMountainThatRides]

There are two different kinds of strength's of claims under consideration here.

1) The strength of the claim to the Iron Throne.

2) The strength of the claim that the person is who s/he claims to be.

On 1) Aegon Targaryen (assuming he is alive) clearly trumps Dany. However, 1) depends on 2) for credibility, and on 2) Dany trumps Aegon. the story of his death is very well known. For Dany to accept him, she would be making a 'declaration against interest' which would make no sense unless she truly regarded him as family. I think Dany's endorsement would effectively put the burden of evidence on those who said that he was false rather than those who said that he was legit. The quotes I provided seem to confirm this reading too. Currently the burden of evidence is on his supporters. This is a different society from our current one, and the word of nobility on the legitimacy or lack thereof of a family member is of paramount importance.

You're right, of course, but I still think the perception of Dany herself makes a difference. I think multiple people have questioned her sanity thus far (is she anything like her father), so having the stigma of being Aerys's daughter could be played against her. If Aegon decides to do a smear campaign, anyway. Blugenes is right, ultimately it boils down to he said-she said. And Sleath56 is correct, too, that people (especially the smallfolk) won't care if Aegon is fake as long as he's doing the job well. As far as I'm concerned, he's the most competent of the claimants (except my man Stan, but I don't think he'll be getting the throne).

Princess and the Queen spoiler:

And if Dany rolls in with her dragons acting anything like the Princess and the Queen dragons, the smallfolk will definitely turn on her.

It seems most tragic that the brilliant insights that went into that thread have been lost to most. Currently I am working to identify Hot Pie as the legitimate heir to the Iron Throne, but the evidence is not as substantial as it was for the Grey Wind=Grey Worm theory.

Unfortunately, not every theory is spelled out so clearly by George as GW=GW. I mean, that's right there for everyone to see. But I still believe in you. Now that I think about it, maybe Stannis knew about Hot Pie's claim all along. That's who he was thinking of when he said, "Any of you, I'd think. Even the cook." Stannis knows how great a king a cook can be.