Varys on Littlefinger's Dagger

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Varys to Ned :

"There was one boy. All he was, he owed to Jon Arryn, but when the widow fled to the Eyrie with her household, he stayed in King's Landing and prospered. It always gladdens my heart to see the young rise in this world."

He then proceeded to talk about Ser Hugh, but it's clear to me he knew it was LF.

Could you then quote the part that convinced you? :p

[KingofSothoryos]

Could you then quote the part that convinced you? :p

I was convince upon my reread after Lysa says all she did for LF, made the quote seem stronger talking about LF than just some squire who was knighted for a fortnight for his part in killing his Lord.

As to the OP, I think the better question is what would Varys had gained if he told Ned and Cat the truth of the dagger and the assassination of Bran, if he even knew the truth of it? Would Varys want to implicate Joffrey, force a serious reckoning between Ned and Robert over something as serious as Joffrey trying to kill a Great Lord's son, even if it was a mercy killing? Even Cersei wouldn't be able to defend Joff.

I think Varys wanted to see what he could gleam from LF's game, so he played along.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I was convince upon my reread after Lysa says all she did for LF, made the quote seem stronger talking about LF than just some squire who was knighted for a fortnight for his part in killing his Lord.

As to the OP, I think the better question is what would Varys had gained if he told Ned and Cat the truth of the dagger and the assassination of Bran, if he even knew the truth of it? Would Varys want to implicate Joffrey, force a serious reckoning between Ned and Robert over something as serious as Joffrey trying to kill a Great Lord's son, even if it was a mercy killing? Even Cersei wouldn't be able to defend Joff.

I think Varys wanted to see what he could gleam from LF's game, so he played along.

So let's see what we can get from the quote then :)

"There was one boy. All he was, he owed to Jon Arryn, but when the widow fled to the Eyrie with her household, he stayed in King's Landing and prospered. It always gladdens my heart to see the young rise in this world."

There was one boy: LF is not a boy. He's a 30 or 31 year old man in aGoT.

All he was, he owed to Jon Arryn: No. Had he never been fostered at Riverrun, he would never have met Lysa. Hoster had a big part to play as well. And once LF proved his value, others than Jon Arryn took over as well.

but when the widow fled to the Eyrie with her household, he stayed in King's Landing and prospered: LF didn't prosper in between the time Lysa left KL and Varys says this. Ser Hugh did. And LF wasn't part of Jon Arryn's Household. It wasn't a strange thing that he remained behind.

It always gladdens my heart to see the young rise in this world.: Varys would not be happy about LF rising. LF is one of Varys' biggest opponents.

I think that this is what happened: LF convinced Lysa to poison Jon Arryn, and to write the letter to Cat and Ned to implicate the Lannisters. Then, LF arranged for Hugh to be knighted, most likely by a Lannisterman. LF could easily have requested this from Cersei. It is never mentioned who knighted ser Hugh, IIRC. That Ser Hugh remained behind, could also have been LF's work. But perhaps the young man didn't want to spend the rest of his life in the Eyrie. There would be more oppertunities in KL for him.

Then Ned started to investigate, and LF knew it would only be a matter of time before Ned actually got to speak to the boy, so he used his Lannister influences to get Gregor (by command of Cersei, I presume) to kill Ser Hugh, making Ned, Varys and Pycelle (and perhaps others) believe that the poisoner of Jon Arryn was death. Nothing could be proved after that, unless Lysa would start talking.

[Federico]

On a slightly related note, Varys probably wants to keep Robert and his illegitimate children by Cersei in power rather than his Targaryen's having to eventually contend with a more stable iron throne controlled by others.

[kiasyd]

There was one boy: LF is not a boy. He's a 30 or 31 year old man in aGoT.

Keyword: was - LF once was a boy, as everyone else.

All he was, he owed to Jon Arryn: No. Had he never been fostered at Riverrun, he would never have met Lysa. Hoster had a big part to play as well. And once LF proved his value, others than Jon Arryn took over as well.

Jon Arryn gave control of Gulltown to LF, and that's where he prospered, which led to his appointment as master of coin.

but when the widow fled to the Eyrie with her household, he stayed in King's Landing and prospered: LF didn't prosper in between the time Lysa left KL and Varys says this. Ser Hugh did. And LF wasn't part of Jon Arryn's Household. It wasn't a strange thing that he remained behind.

LF didn't prosper as master of coin in KL? Really? Also, the quote doesn't states that the boy belonged to Lysa's household.

It always gladdens my heart to see the young rise in this world.: Varys would not be happy about LF rising. LF is one of Varys' biggest opponents.

Varys masterfully speaks with euphemisms, alternating with sarcasm. When he says "a boy", he means LF but induces Ned to think about Ser Hugh. When he says "gladdens my heart to see the young rise..." the euphemism is threefold: it applies to Ser Hugh, LF and even Varys himself.

You're assuming Varys isn't happy with LF rising and that LF is Varys opponent, but he never said that. Maybe if LF bothered him, Varys could act against LF, which he never did. The point being: As others said, Varys wants the realm unstable to pave the way for (f)Aegon, and LF - unknowingly - is helping in that regard.

So, I'm with The Unborn, in this passage Vary is telling Ned to watch out for LF, but Ned never catches the message.

[KingofSothoryos]

I concur with kiasyd's analysis.

I think the question you have to ask yourself (as I did myself) when rereading the passage isn't whether or not what Varys says perfectly describes LF as opposed to Ser Hugh because we know Varys speaks in riddles and obfuscations. It's whether or not you believe Varys knew who really poisoned Jon Arryn. Once I knew it was Lysa and LF's doing, looking at the passage, the question only became could Varys's words mean LF, even if they were still true for Ser Hugh as well. Now whether I'm just caught in the Varys is all-knowing reputation, that is for GRRM to reveal! Hell, I'm not convinced that Varys doesn't work for LF or vice versa, as they have never openly opposed each other like Lyn Corbray.

[Mourneblade]

I do not think varys knows who armed the catspaw with the dagger (joff).

Also Varys would never make a public enemy of LF by implicated him openly.

The whisperer only whispers when his voice is the only one being heard.

It would never be in Varys interest to publicly have a "his word against mine argument" with anyone as it could work against his credibility.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

LF didn't prosper as master of coin in KL? Really? Also, the quote doesn't states that the boy belonged to Lysa's household.

It says when the widow fled, he prospered, so no, it can't be LF. LF did not prosper further after Lysa left. LF's position stayed exactly the same.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I concur with kiasyd's analysis.

I think the question you have to ask yourself (as I did myself) when rereading the passage isn't whether or not what Varys says perfectly describes LF as opposed to Ser Hugh because we know Varys speaks in riddles and obfuscations. It's whether or not you believe Varys knew who really poisoned Jon Arryn. Once I knew it was Lysa and LF's doing, looking at the passage, the question only became could Varys's words mean LF, even if they were still true for Ser Hugh as well. Now whether I'm just caught in the Varys is all-knowing reputation, that is for GRRM to reveal! Hell, I'm not convinced that Varys doesn't work for LF or vice versa, as they have never openly opposed each other like Lyn Corbray.

So only when two people openly oppose each other can they be working together? That's ridiculous. Corbray opposing LF worked for the ruse at that exact moment, that's the only reason he pretended to want to attack LF.

[kiasyd]

It says when the widow fled, he prospered, so no, it can't be LF. LF did not prosper further after Lysa left. LF's position stayed exactly the same.

He did prosper further - He raised the crown debt and solidified his enterprises in KL, administered his brothels and his own spy network. How he did not prosper? He even set up his own KG catspaws (Kettleblacks).

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

He did prosper further - He raised the crown debt and solidified his enterprises in KL, administered his brothels and his own spy network. How he did not prosper? He even set up his own KG catspaws (Kettleblacks).

But not in between the short time after Lysa left and when Varys said this. He already had his brothels, he already had his spy network, the crown debt was already raised, and his enterprises were already solidified.

Of course he prospered in KL. But Varys specifically mentions the moment inbetween Lysa's flight and when he is speaking right now. Varys can't see into the future.

I've been in these conversations before, and sure it's all suspicious. But the conclusions every single time again is that Varys isn't talking about LF. He's talking about Ser Hugh.

[kiasyd]

But not in between the short time after Lysa left and when Varys said this. He already had his brothels, he already had his spy network, the crown debt was already raised, and his enterprises were already solidified.

Of course he prospered in KL. But Varys specifically mentions the moment inbetween Lysa's flight and when he is speaking right now. Varys can't see into the future.

I've been in these conversations before, and sure it's all suspicious. But the conclusions every single time again is that Varys isn't talking about LF. He's talking about Ser Hugh.

That's the thing about Varys dialogues: he is talking about both. :cool4:

[Usrnmhsnomning]

Ser High didn't prosper anyway. He did what exactly? Bought an incomplete suit of armor and died in the first tourny he competed in. And why mention Lysa at all? Ser Hugh had nothing to do with Lysa, he had no reason to follow her back o the Eyrie. Littlefinger, on the other hand, had everything to do with Lysa what with the affair and making her kill Jon in the first place (hint hint, thats Varys bloody point) and it'd have made plenty of sense if he had followed her home, given he actually does end up following her back there in the end.

[kiasyd]

Ser High didn't prosper anyway. He did what exactly? Bought an incomplete suit of armor and died in the first tourny he competed in. And why mention Lysa at all? Ser Hugh had nothing to do with Lysa, he had no reason to follow her back o the Eyrie. Littlefinger, on the other hand, had everything to do with Lysa what with the affair and making her kill Jon in the first place (hint hint, thats Varys bloody point) and it'd have made plenty of sense if he had followed her home, given he actually does end up following her back there in the end.

Great points. :agree:

[Lady Fevre Dream]

Varys to Ned :

"There was one boy. All he was, he owed to Jon Arryn, but when the widow fled to the Eyrie with her household, he stayed in King's Landing and prospered. It always gladdens my heart to see the young rise in this world."

He then proceeded to talk about Ser Hugh, but it's clear to me he knew it was LF.

I'm thinking the issue with Ser Hugh could have gone a couple different ways. First off, for all we know Ser Hugh could have somehow been involved in the plot with Lysa and LF or used by them in some fashion. Then again, it doesn't make sense that The Mountain would then kill him for the Lannisters, unless, he somehow worked for both factions.

My guess is really, that with Jon Arryn asking questions and investigating twincest and Bobby B's bastards, that Cersei or any Lannister in general somehow had Ser Hugh spying on Arryn to keep up with how much he may or may not be putting together. It could have just been the usual, everyone highers spy thing like LF pointed out to Ned. Ser Hugh may have never known what info he was looking for, just reported on everything in general. Once Arryn was dead and Stannis off to Dragonstone, it would still fit that if Ser Hugh was in any way a spy for Cersei or any Lannister alley that it would be time to get rid of him. Enter The Mountain and the 'mishap' at the tourney.

As far as Varys letting LF get away with the knife lie, I'm thinking that it was because since Varys himself didn't use the knife to lay out a story for Cat, once Peter did, and Varys had claimed not to have knowledge, his hands were tied. As other posters pointed out, Varys realized him trying to disagree with LFs story to Cat probably wouldn't get him anywhere. Plus, if Ser Hugh really was some type of Lannister spy, I do wonder if that means that Varys in the long run, really thought that the Lannisters killed Jon Arryn. We know from Sansa and Dontos that LF knows not to talk inside the Red Keep, so any plotting that Lysa and LF did would have been in a place like the godswood, perhaps, and Varys really did think that it was the Lannisters all the time?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Ser High didn't prosper anyway. He did what exactly? Bought an incomplete suit of armor and died in the first tourny he competed in. And why mention Lysa at all? Ser Hugh had nothing to do with Lysa, he had no reason to follow her back o the Eyrie. Littlefinger, on the other hand, had everything to do with Lysa what with the affair and making her kill Jon in the first place (hint hint, thats Varys bloody point) and it'd have made plenty of sense if he had followed her home, given he actually does end up following her back there in the end.

So I've searched the entire quote in the book, and you guys are simply only reading the first half.

"There was one boy. All he was, he owed Jon Arryn, but when the widow fled to the Eyrie with her household, he stayed in King’s Landing and prospered. It always gladdens my heart to see the young rise in the world.” The whip was in his voice again, every word a stroke. “He must have cut a gallant figure in the tourney, him in his bright new armor, with those crescent moons on his cloak. A pity he died so untimely, before you could talk to him...”

So Varys is talking here about 1 person. And it can't be LF, because

(1) When the widow fled to the Eyrie with her Household (that Ser Hugh was a part of) he stayed behind in KL and prospered. Lysa had fled only about 4 months months, or something close. All LF had when Ned arrived in the city, he already had before Lysa had fled. LF did not prosper after Jon Arryn died and Lysa left.

(2) LF did not compete in the tourney

(3) LF had no bright new armor, but Barristan does mention how Ser Hugh had a bright new armor

(4) it was Ser Hugh who died before Ned could talk to him. LF is still alive.

(5) moons as a sigil are associated with House Arryn. Absolutely not with LF

(6) How did Ser Hugh prosper you ask? He was knighted by the king himself! If that's not prospering, than nothing is.

Ser Hugh had everything to do with Lysa. He was part of the Arryn Household, having been Jon Arryn's squire for the last 4 years. As part of her household, you'd expect him to return to the Vale with the others. Yet he didn't.

Reading the entire quote, and not just the first part, that's when it becomes more obvious than ever that it can't have been LF who Varys was talking about. It was Ser Hugh.

[kiasyd]

Reading the entire quote, and not just the first part, that's when it becomes more obvious than ever that it can't have been LF who Varys was talking about. It was Ser Hugh.

He was talking about Ser Hugh, I didn't deny that, but Varys always speaks in riddles and euphemisms and that particular part of the quote perfectly fits LF, who is - not coincidentally - behind the plot. It's important to relate to Tyrion, in the same role as Hand, also trying to figure out the hidden meanings in most of what Vary's says. Too often he hides double meanings in things he says.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

He was talking about Ser Hugh, I didn't deny that, but Varys always speaks in riddles and euphemisms and that particular part of the quote perfectly fits LF, who is - not coincidentally - behind the plot. It's important to relate to Tyrion, in the same role as Hand, also trying to figure out the hidden meanings in most of what Vary's says. Too often he hides double meanings in things he says.

A particular part of the qote fits LF, not perfectly, but mostly. However, the first sentence is nothing without the second, and the second sentence is nothing without the first.

but when the widow fled to the Eyrie with her household, he stayed in King’s Landing and prospered

That's the part that doesn't fit LF, no matter how you turn it. If you assume that Varys was talking about LF, you should read it like this: "But when Lysa fled to the Eyrie with her Household, LF stayed in KL and prospered". And that is absolutely not what happened.

LF had already prospered. Lysa had left only several months ago. After Lysa left, LF didn't prosper any further. There was no chance for it.

Another thing is that it would not be logical that it's weird that LF remained behind while the rest of Lysa's Household went back to the Eyrie. LF was never part of the Arryn Household.

[Usrnmhsnomning]

So I've searched the entire quote in the book, and you guys are simply only reading the first half.

Reading the entire quote, and not just the first part, that's when it becomes more obvious than ever that it can't have been LF who Varys was talking about. It was Ser Hugh.

To the contrary; the next part of the quote absolutely confirms that none of the points Varys makes accurately fits Ser Hugh. Because, lo and behold, the knight that has nothing to do with Lysa dies, and he doesn't prosper. He flounders and dies alone. Pray tell what prosper he achieves?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

To the contrary; the next part of the quote absolutely confirms that none of the points Varys makes accurately fits Ser Hugh. Because, lo and behold, the knight that has nothing to do with Lysa dies, and he doesn't prosper. He flounders and dies alone. Pray tell what prosper he achieves?

He was knighted by the king himself before Robert rode north, after Lysa left for the Eyrie. Being knighted by the King himself, that's called prospering He was elevated a whole social level

:)

And Ser Hugh was Jon Arryn's squire of four years. So saying that he has nothing to do with Lysa, is not true.

How so do the points Varys makes in the second part of the quote not fit Ser Hugh?

He must have cut a gallant figure in the tourney: Ser Hugh was participating in the tourney

him in his bright new armor, with those crescent moons on his cloak: Varys describes what Ser Hugh was wearing when he died. Sansa does the same thing for us:

Sandor Clegane and his immense brother, Ser Gregor the Mountain, seemed unstoppable as well, riding down one foe after the next in ferocious style. The most terrifying moment of the day came during Ser Gregor’s second joust, when his lance rode up and struck a young knight from the Vale under the gorget with such force that it drove through his throat, killing him instantly. The youth fell not ten feet from where Sansa was seated. The point of Ser Gregor’s lance had snapped off in his neck, and his life’s blood flowed out in slow pulses, each weaker than the one before. His armor was shiny new; a bright streak of fire ran down his outstretched arm, as the steel caught the light. Then the sun went behind a cloud, and it was gone. His cloak was blue, the color of the sky on a clear summer’s day, trimmed with a border of crescent moons, but as his blood seeped into it, the cloth darkened and the moons turned red, one by one.

A pity he died so untimely, before you could talk to him...: Ned wanted to talk to Ser Hugh, but Ser Hugh only wanted to speak directly to Ned. Because of Hugh's attitude, Ned hadn't spoken to him before the tourney, and after the tourney, because of his death, there was no chance to do so anymore.