ghosts in winterfell Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 Ramsay will not learn anything from the spearwives. “It’s the captive supposed to tell things, remember?” The ranger thrust a long branch into the fire. “Not that she will. I’ve known wildlings to bite off their own tongues before they’d answer a question.” I doubt all of them have that kind of discipline. And I'm sure none of them have actually seen a torture chamber, let alone Ramsay's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~No One~ Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 I'm pretty impressed with this pattern. Great find OP.The only thing is that, as a user posted above, Ramsey could just be using the same language he heard from torturing the spearwives. My only hesitation with believing it's Mance is lack of a motive. One that I believe, anyways ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 I doubt all of them have that kind of discipline. And I'm sure none of them have actually seen a torture chamber, let alone Ramsay's. They saw Reek and I think that tells so much about Ramsay. And they have been with Ramsay almost two months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckthorn Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 I doubt all of them have that kind of discipline. And I'm sure none of them have actually seen a torture chamber, let alone Ramsay's.Mance handpicked the spearwives, surely all of them are "'disciplined.'" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnionAhaiReborn Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 I think this is interesting. But, we know at least that the term 'crow' is not exclusive to the wildlings. Yoren was chewing sourleaf. "Told you, no one here but us. You got my word on that."The knight in the spiked helm laughed. "The crow gives us his word.""You lost, old man?" mocked one of the spearmen. "The Wall's a long way north o' here." Yoren is called a crow by one of the Lannister men, so it's used well south of the wall. Obviously you've searched and not found 'black crow' specifically used by any non-wildlings but I think it's not so odd to think that if a Lannister man might use the term 'crow' for a Night's Watchman, Ramsay might use 'black crow.' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghosts in winterfell Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 Mance handpicked the spearwives, surely all of them are "'disciplined.'" :dunno: Maybe he misjudged them. Is anyone going to answer my question about whether or not Mance can actually read or write? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tynned Lannistark Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 This is a great theory. But.... You are ignoring the fact that Mance is not a wildling....He was born in the south. He was in the watch. he knows how southern people talk. He wouldn't have made that mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooseman Posted January 18, 2014 Author Share Posted January 18, 2014 I think this is interesting. But, we know at least that the term 'crow' is not exclusive to the wildlings. Yoren is called a crow by one of the Lannister men, so it's used well south of the wall. Obviously you've searched and not found 'black crow' specifically used by any non-wildlings but I think it's not so odd to think that if a Lannister man might use the term 'crow' for a Night's Watchman, Ramsay might use 'black crow.' I'm aware, that "crow" isn't exclusive to wildlings. "Black crow" is, though. George chooses his wording very deliberately. I do not find it likely, that he'd use it as a term exclusive to wildlings over the course of 5 books, and then suddenly someone from the south just starts saying it, because whatever. This is a great theory. But.... You are ignoring the fact that Mance is not a wildling....He was born in the south. He was in the watch. he knows how southern people talk. He wouldn't have made that mistake. No, Mance was born a wildling. ETA: Besides, what's more likely? That someone who has ridden with the wildlings for years and gotten used to their way of talking would slip up and accidentally use a wildling-typical term? Or that someone who has never been north of the Wall would suddenly speak like a wildling? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jentario Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 I can't shake off how much I hate this theory. It seems like a very cheep twist to me. I would much rather have Ramsay be the real writer, and that Stannis and Manderly are playing him a fool. The fact that he says he has the sword is a hint at this, if you ask me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muggle Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 I have to agree that Mance sent this letter. I find it odd in the first chapter we get of Winterfell that one of the first descriptions we get is that all these loose ravens are hanging about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mourneblade Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 The only way I can buy into Mance writing this letter would be if he is the Night's King (then he has a REAL motive to weaken the wall) or Mance and Jon had some preset code between them before he left. Nothing else seems to make much sense if you understand the character as presented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnionAhaiReborn Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 I'm aware, that "crow" isn't exclusive to wildlings. "Black crow" is, though. George chooses his wording very deliberately. I do not find it likely, that he'd use it as a term exclusive to wildlings over the course of 5 books, and then suddenly someone from the south just starts saying it, because whatever. 'Black' is a fairly intuitive reference to the color they wear. They're called 'black brothers,' and men are said to 'take the black' south of the Wall. Couple this with the fact that we know they're also called 'crows' south of the Wall and it becomes unexceptional that someone would call them 'black crows.' Indeed, it would be odd to think that no one south of the Wall would use the term 'black crow' when we have examples of 'black brother' and 'crow' being used. Combining the two is no great leap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yolkboy Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 'Black' is a fairly intuitive reference to the color they wear. They're called 'black brothers,' men are said to 'take the black' south of the Wall. Couple this with the fact that we know they're also called 'crows' south of the Wall and it becomes unexceptional that someone would call them 'black crows.' Indeed, it would be odd to think that no one South of the Wall would use the term 'black crow' when we have examples of 'black brother' and 'crow' being used. Combining the two is no great leap. It is exceptional because it's the first and only time in 5000 pages it happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnionAhaiReborn Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 It is exceptional because it's the first and only time in 5000 pages it happens. I agree that this is interesting for the reason you state, and could be a hint. I don't agree that it makes sense that 'black crow' is actually a wildling exclusive term, given what we know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs.Grumpy Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 I think we finally figured it out who wrote the pink letter. Thanks man! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooseman Posted January 18, 2014 Author Share Posted January 18, 2014 I don't agree that it makes sense that 'black crow' is actually a wildling exclusive term, given what we know. So in other words, it's just coincidence that the term is always used by wildlings but never by southerners until the pink letter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnionAhaiReborn Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 So in other words, it's just coincidence that the term is always used by wildlings but never by southerners until the pink letter? I think it could be significant as a literary hint from GRRM. I think it beggars belief to say that southerners truly don't ever use the phrase 'black crow' even though they use 'crow' and 'black brother.' For that reason I probably take the hint to be less strong than someone who thinks it is the case that the term is truly exclusive to wildlings. I still think it could be a hint though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooseman Posted January 18, 2014 Author Share Posted January 18, 2014 I think it could be significant as a literary hint from GRRM. I think it beggars belief to say that southerners truly don't ever use the phrase 'black crow' even though they use 'crow' and 'black brother.' For that reason I probably take the hint to be less strong than someone who thinks it is the case that the term is truly exclusive to wildlings. I still think it could be a hint though. I understand. If the books were the real world, I'd say chances are very good that people south of the wall call the Night's Watch men black crows just because of the reasons you mentioned. But since this is deliberately written, and we've never seen it occur until the pink letter, that makes it very likely that it's a hint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghosts in winterfell Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 I understand. If the books were the real world, I'd say chances are very good that people south of the wall call the Night's Watch men black crows just because of the reasons you mentioned. But since this is deliberately written, and we've never seen it occur until the pink letter, that makes it very likely that it's a hint. It is a pretty good catch, but do we know if Mance can even read or write? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muggle Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 It is a pretty good catch, but do we know if Mance can even read or write? The guy speaks the Old Tongue. He was raised at The Wall. He deserted as a young man. He learned a new language and a rather difficult language st that as an adult. Learning to read and write are easily in his capacity to learn. I would assume yes he does know. If it hasn't be specifically stated as of yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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