Why did the Kings guard at the ToJ try keep Eddard away from Lyanna?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Maybe they chose to use her as a hostage. "Lord Stark, I don't want you step foot on this land or I'll killed your sister", "Shit, he is ten minuted away, kill her, "

I would say it's sarcasm. Yes definitely sarcasm.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Maybe they chose to use her as a hostage. "Lord Stark, I don't want you step foot on this land or I'll killed your sister", "Shit, he is ten minutes away, kill her, "

... Which still doesn't explain why she's still freaking alive when he gets there. Like I said, it makes zero sense.

ETA: The sarcasm font is Comic Sans, in case you need it.

[Lady Winter Rose]

And somebody will have to explain me how that whole hostage thing is supposed to work - I thought that the whole point of having a hostage is to tell those concerned "be nice OR!" to make them do what you want. Yet, I somehow don't recall Aerys, or Rhaegar, trying to force the rebels into surrender because of Lyanna.

She might be Rhaegar's hostage. In fact, she might be Rhaegar's sex slave, so until Rhaegar died, she was different type of hostage.

[Lady Winter Rose]

... Which still doesn't explain why she's still freaking alive when he gets there. Like I said, it makes zero sense.

ETA: The sarcasm font is Comic Sans, in case you need it.

Maybe they chose some slow method of murder.

[Lady Howell]

This has never made a single lick of sense to me. If they wanted her dead, she'd've been dead, long before Ned got there. It also doesn't comport at all to the respect that Ned has for Arthur.

Well, it would explain some things. People theorize she died of a after-birth fever, which takes awhile to kill a woman, up to a few days in most cases ( I'm not sure if this is right, so correct me if I'm wrong, being feverish isn't a symptom of blood loss.) In that case, if she had given birth to Jon days ago, and the whole Wylla was already the midwife/wetnurse and thus already present at the TOJ theory is true, I wonder why the heck no one thought to change the damn bloody sheets.

Again, this is only is the case where we're supposed to believe she died of a fever. I mean, even if she died of blood loss a few hours/several minutes after the birth, don't midwives try and change the sheets immediately after the birth for sanitary reasons? So Wylla and/or the King's Guard just leaving her and a baby in a bloody bed for hours or even a few minutes longer than necessary seems...kind of neglectful.

If she was stabbed after she outlived her usefulness as a baby-making factory for Rhaegar (which i personally believe was all that she was to him), it was probably so she couldn't protest against them taking Jon to Essos or handing him off to loyalists to raise a figure-head for rebellion (which if anything we've heard about Lyanna is true, is not something she'd just lay down and take. She wanted to go home to Winterfell. That's clear simply from her wish to be buried there.)

Really though, I think it's more accurate that Rhaegar was an asshole who decided to ignore the common practice of waiting for a girl to turn sixteen before impregnating her and it came back to bite Lyanna in the ass because, whoops, she was too young to properly survive a pregnancy and childbirth.

[Adara]

Maybe they chose some slow method of murder.

Yes, because Ned was ten minutes away. Makes all sense now.

ETA: The sarcasm font is Comic Sans, in case you need it.

Thanks, very helpful.

[Rhaegar I Targaryen]

My thoughts on the matter..

The Targaryen dynasty had never been overthrown. There had been rebellions, but the Kingsguard has only ever been loyal (up to this point) to the Targaryens. Their code of honor dictated that they were to obey the royal family. Rhaegar commanded them to protect Lyanna and his unborn child, so that's what they did. They did not have liberty to negotiate or deviate from their orders. Notice, Jaime is an accursed Kingslayer, even though he did the right thing in killing the King. At the ToJ, the Kingsguard even said Aerys would still sit on the throne if they had been with him. They stood silent watch as the king burned Rickard Stark alive and raped the queen. Ser Gerald I believe was the one who said their job was to protect the king, not judge him. This shows that no matter how crazy or unwinnable the situation, the Kingsguard obeys. If they were told to fight to the death for Aerys' amusement, I have no doubt they would have appeased him.

Barristan and Jaime set the first recorded precedent of a Kingsguard member serving a non-Targaryen king. That was a very big deal, and it was a decision that I believe Barristan struggled with mightily.

Basically, what I'm trying to say is Ned and his company, regardless of the outcome of the rebellion, did not have the capacity to be anything but rebels in the minds of the three Kingsguard. They knew that even if they lived, Aerys and Rhaegar were dead-- the royal family obliterated. They were simply honoring their vows. They had to have known that they could have negotiated with Ned and gone on to serve Robert if they wished, but they didn't, because this was an unprecedented event.

Maybe they chose some slow method of murder.

I get the whole devil's advocate approach, but that's ridiculous and there is no way that is even possible. GRRM might not do happy endings often, but whatever transpired between Rhaegar and Lyanna is basically the basis of the entire story, the event which made everything that happened afterwards possible. The story loses so much luster if Lyanna was a hostage or went unwillingly with Rhaegar, and especially if Lyanna had been condemned to a slow death.

C'mon

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Maybe they chose some slow method of murder.

Which, again, does not match up to the rather large amount of respect that Ned has for Arthur. Do you sincerely think Ned would have called Dayne the finest knight he ever knew if Dayne had been a party to slowly murdering his sister? Please.

The idea doesn't make any sense. Still.

Well, it would explain some things. People theorize she died of a after-birth fever, which takes awhile to kill a woman, up to a few days in most cases ( I'm not sure if this is right, so correct me if I'm wrong, being feverish isn't a symptom of blood loss.) In that case, if she had given birth to Jon days ago, and the whole Wylla was already the midwife/wetnurse and thus already present at the TOJ theory is true, I wonder why the heck no one thought to change the damn bloody sheets.

You are quite hilariously overestimating these people's knowledge of cleanliness and the role it plays in infections like that. Doctors were still debating puerperal fever and the role of sterilization in the mid-1800s, let alone in what is more or less a medieval society. Why do you think childbirth mortality rates used to be so high?

As for how long she could have lived while having that kind of a fever, it could have been, if we're being medically accurate, up to about 10 days after giving birth.

I also strongly disagree with the idea that Rhaegar only saw Lyanna as a baby factory; just about everything we see, even from people like the Lannisters who might have a reason to slander Rhaegar, suggest that at least on his end, he loved Lyanna.

[Lady Winter Rose]

Well, it would explain some things. People theorize she died of a after-birth fever, which takes awhile to kill a woman, up to a few days in most cases ( I'm not sure if this is right, so correct me if I'm wrong, being feverish isn't a symptom of blood loss.) In that case, if she had given birth to Jon days ago, and the whole Wylla was already the midwife/wetnurse and thus already present at the TOJ theory is true, I wonder why the heck no one thought to change the damn bloody sheets.

Again, this is only is the case where we're supposed to believe she died of a fever. I mean, even if she died of blood loss a few hours/several minutes after the birth, don't midwives try and change the sheets immediately after the birth for sanitary reasons? So Wylla and/or the King's Guard just leaving her and a baby in a bloody bed for hours or even a few minutes longer than necessary seems...kind of neglectful.

If she was stabbed after she outlived her usefulness as a baby-making factory for Rhaegar (which i personally believe was all that she was to him), it was probably so she couldn't protest against them taking Jon to Essos or handing him off to loyalists to raise a figure-head for rebellion (which if anything we've heard about Lyanna is true, is not something she'd just lay down and take. She wanted to go home to Winterfell. That's clear simply from her wish to be buried there.)

Really though, I think it's more accurate that Rhaegar was an asshole who decided to ignore the common practice of waiting for a girl to turn sixteen before impregnating her and it came back to bite Lyanna in the ass because, whoops, she was too young to properly survive a pregnancy and childbirth.

Glad I'm not the only one.

[Lady Winter Rose]

Which, again, does not match up to the rather large amount of respect that Ned has for Arthur. Do you sincerely think Ned would have called Dayne the finest knight he ever knew if Dayne had been a party to slowly murdering his sister? Please.

The idea doesn't make any sense. Still.

What Jaime said to Catelyn. Sometimes you must break your oath and maybe Eddard though he was finnest knight because he was true loyalist. True to his ex king, Aerys. True to his ex lord Rhaegar. But finnest knigh might be evil man. Who listen his king when he order to burn people.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

What Jaime said to Catelyn. Sometimes you must break your oath and maybe Eddard though he was finnest knight because he was true loyalist. True to his ex king, Aerys. True to his ex lord Rhaegar. But finnest knigh might be evil man. Who listen his king when he order to burn people.

The idea still doesn't make any sense. If they wanted her dead, she'd've been dead. There is literally no reason to draw it out. There's following orders, and there's being cruel for its own sake with fuck all to gain from it. And I'll keep telling you that it doesn't make any sense. Because it doesn't.

[Lady Howell]

Which, again, does not match up to the rather large amount of respect that Ned has for Arthur. Do you sincerely think Ned would have called Dayne the finest knight he ever knew if Dayne had been a party to slowly murdering his sister? Please.

The idea doesn't make any sense. Still.

You are quite hilariously overestimating these people's knowledge of cleanliness and the role it plays in infections like that. Doctors were still debating puerperal fever and the role of sterilization in the mid-1800s, let alone in what is more or less a medieval society. Why do you think child mortality rates used to be so high?

As for how long she could have lived while having that kind of a fever, it could have been, if we're being medically accurate, up to about 10 days after giving birth.

I also strongly disagree with the idea that Rhaegar only saw Lyanna as a baby factory; just about everything we see, even from people like the Lannisters who might have a reason to slander Rhaegar, suggest that at least on his end, he loved Lyanna.

Still, even by medieval standards, I don't think it was okay to leave a woman in a bed of blood sheets for up to ten days. That's really gross...Like, seriously, didn't midwives change the sheets afterwards, if only because blood, if it sets in, will be hell to get out those white sheets.

I mean, didn't they have a laundry day at the TOJ?

Actually, come to think of it, how many basic necessities did they have there ya think? If it was a crumbling tower, it doesn't sound ideal for a pregnant woman or baby...

[Jon's Queen Consort]

:eek: WTF :eek: ? It's not sarcasm! :bang: :bang: :bang: I do believe that the White Bull, the Sword of the Morning and Whent where the epitome of the "True Knight" but obviously people do believe that they would kill a teen in cold blood!I thought I had seen the most ridiculous things in this forum alreadyt but alas I was wrong. :bang:

[King of Winters]

:eek: WTF :eek: ? It's not sarcasm! :bang: :bang: :bang: I do believe that the White Bull, the Sword of the Morning and Whent where the epitome of the "True Knight" but obviously people do believe that they would kill a teen in cold blood!I thought I had seen the most ridiculous things in this forum alreadyt but alas I was wrong. :bang:

I've seen more ridiculous.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Still, even by medieval standards, I don't think it was okay to leave a woman in a bed of blood sheets for up to ten days. That's really gross...Like, seriously, didn't midwives change the sheets afterwards, if only because blood, if it sets in, will be hell to get out those white sheets.

I mean, didn't they have a laundry day at the TOJ?

Actually, come to think of it, how many basic necessities did they have there ya think? If it was a crumbling tower, it doesn't sound ideal for a pregnant woman or baby...

Operative term in bold. I honestly can't tell if you're being serious or not at this point. Expecting a medieval tower out in the middle of nowhere to have modern concepts of sterilization and cleanliness and a steady supply of clean linens and medical utensils is ... kind of ridiculous, sorry. A damn high percentage of women died in childbirth in that period, and that's a big goddamn reason why. Puerperal fever killed queens too, you know: Jane Seymour and Elizabeth of York both died from it, and they actually had a high number of physicians and access to quality care. I don't know why the Tower of Joy would be any different.

[Ygrain]

Still, even by medieval standards, I don't think it was okay to leave a woman in a bed of blood sheets for up to ten days. That's really gross...Like, seriously, didn't midwives change the sheets afterwards, if only because blood, if it sets in, will be hell to get out those white sheets.

I mean, didn't they have a laundry day at the TOJ?

Actually, come to think of it, how many basic necessities did they have there ya think? If it was a crumbling tower, it doesn't sound ideal for a pregnant woman or baby...

You are aware that women bleed several weeks after childbirth, right? Especially during the first week, the pads have to be changed almost constantly, or you find yourself in a literal bed of blood in no time at all. With puerperal fever, the bleeding is excessive, so here you go, bed of blood lasting way beyond the delivery itself.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I've seen more ridiculous.

Come on! I do believe that there were troll like but no someone who really believe them.Scratch that, actually there was a theory that Jon was Elia's son.

[King of Winters]

Come on! I do believe that there were troll like but no someone who really believe them.Scratch that, actually there was a theory that Jon was Elia's son.

Well Black Hawk got people (somehow) to believe his wild theories.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Well Black Hawk got people (somehow) to believe his wild theories.

I don't think so. But his Samwell is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son theory had so many perspectives.

[Lady Howell]

Which, again, does not match up to the rather large amount of respect that Ned has for Arthur. Do you sincerely think Ned would have called Dayne the finest knight he ever knew if Dayne had been a party to slowly murdering his sister? Please.

The idea doesn't make any sense. Still.

You are quite hilariously overestimating these people's knowledge of cleanliness and the role it plays in infections like that. Doctors were still debating puerperal fever and the role of sterilization in the mid-1800s, let alone in what is more or less a medieval society. Why do you think childbirth mortality rates used to be so high?

As for how long she could have lived while having that kind of a fever, it could have been, if we're being medically accurate, up to about 10 days after giving birth.

I also strongly disagree with the idea that Rhaegar only saw Lyanna as a baby factory; just about everything we see, even from people like the Lannisters who might have a reason to slander Rhaegar, suggest that at least on his end, he loved Lyanna.

The romance that everyone believes they had is the worst cop-out to explain their characters' actions ever.

She was a baby factory to him, a means to fulfill the prophecy. Even the saying her name in death thing can be construed as him just thinking about his precious prophecy again and not about some great true love of his.

The romance, in series, is given as a rationalization for his actions by other characters who idealize Rhaegar and don't want to believe that he was obsessed with a prophecy and having three children. They want Rhaegar to be a fairy-tale prince come to life, and he wasn't. He's in fact a deconstruction.

Outwardly, in all respects, he's the perfect prince from the fairytales. But then you realize he was obsessed with the three heads of dragon and the song of ice and fire and that Lyanna is most likely just a means of fulfilling it. Objectively, when would they have even had time to fall in love pre-TOJ? And even if they "fell in love" during their time together there, it could again just be seen as a case of people having sex and confusing the feelings behind that with feelings of actual love. Most relationships based on sex work out horribly.

I doubt their story will be on based on love. It'll be another one of Martin's famous subversions of tropes.