Does anyone think what they did to Cersei was unjust?

[Asha Greyjoy:Feminist Icon]

Lol you're soft as shit it's pathetic.

Yep, if there's one thing I'm best known for, it's my weak, non-confrontational social graces.

/comic sans

[Winter's Knight]

Yep, if there's one thing I'm best known for, it's my weak, non-confrontational social graces.

/comic sans

"Soft" is not an insult ffs. Going through life, understanding the oppressive rape culture you can never, ever escape from and still wanting to fight for the cause may be "soft" but it sure as hell isn't "weak".

[Asha Greyjoy:Feminist Icon]

"Soft" is not an insult ffs. Going through life, understanding the oppressive rape culture you can never, ever escape from and still wanting to fight for the cause may be "soft" but it sure as hell isn't "weak".

I'd never try to qualify any activism ever. I just literally almost choked on my own laughter at being thought of as "soft" in this particular category. Forever lols.

[butterbumps!]

Since the other thread got locked, I guess I'll just address this here (it was a response to me)

In this story the crimes/sins Cerci was being punished for were sexual in nature. Her punishment was a sort of a punishment in kind but much less severe then that faced by men. Theon's crimes were not sexual in nature but his punishment was definately "sexualized violence" and far beyond any punishment given to Cerci. If Cerci was subjected to female circumcision or mutilation of her breasts there would have been parity. However, Circi was simply humiliated, a punishment meant to hopefully effect her future behavior but left her body intact. Theon was sexually mutilated. Cerci will get over her humiliation probably bu having the High Septon gutted. Theon on the other hand is not ever going to get over having being gelded. The punishment for crimes in the world GRRM has created are quite severe by our standards. But The Walk of Shame is a punishment both meant to take the place of more serious crimes and non-physical and transitory in nature.

The crime Cersei was actually punished for-- the one she confessed to and was given the WOS as "atonement"-- is the "crime" of having had sex with Lancel and that Kettleblack after Robert died. As a widow. No adultery. No "treason."

If you want to play the "she got it so much better" card, why don't you sit and reflect on the fact that an unmarried woman who has consensual sex is guilty of a crime, in a society where sex is not considered a crime for men. At all. So, I'm not really sure that the "women have it easier" argument makes a whole lot of sense in this context.

[jaimecersei]

Since the other thread got locked, I guess I'll just address this here (it was a response to me)

The crime Cersei was actually punished for-- the one she confessed to and was given the WOS as "atonement"-- is the "crime" of having had sex with Lancel and that Kettleblack after Robert died. As a widow. No adultery. No "treason."

If you want to play the "she got it so much better" card, why don't you sit and reflect on the fact that an unmarried woman who has consensual sex is guilty of a crime, in a society where sex is not considered a crime for men. At all. So, I'm not really sure that the "women have it easier" argument makes a whole lot of sense in this context.

i would also like to note that the Walk of Shame doesn't just affect Cersei, but it affects the entirety of women in Westeros in general. By agreeing with the Walk of Shame people are only perpetuating the misognyistic society of Westeros. people just can't grasp this. it's saddens me tbh

[RoamingRonin]

i would also like to note that the Walk of Shame doesn't just affect Cersei, but it affects the entirety of women in Westeros in general. By agreeing with the Walk of Shame people are only perpetuating the misognyistic society of Westeros. people just can't grasp this. it's saddens me tbh

People in the books or on the forums?

[jaimecersei]

People in the books or on the forums?

people o the forums. i dont expect the people in westeros to understand. but do i wish the readers could understand? yes

[Asha Greyjoy:Feminist Icon]

people o the forums. i dont expect the people in westeros to understand. but do i wish the readers could understand? yes

I really don't want to seem as though I'm coming at anyone personally but still? I agree.

[jaimecersei]

I really don't want to seem as though I'm coming at anyone personally but still? I agree.

yeah. also the fact that most people just see it as nothing more than ~walking naked~ disturb me. its psychological sexual torture.

[Asha Greyjoy:Feminist Icon]

yeah. also the fact that most people just see it as nothing more than ~walking naked~ disturb me. its psychological sexual torture.

I completely missed your thread on this before the lockdown and I want to say how much I appreciate the effort you made to distinguish between events in the OP.

Now on to read what I'm sure will be 7 pages of sad.

[jaimecersei]

I completely missed your thread on this before the lockdown and I want to say how much I appreciate the effort you made to distinguish between events in the OP.

Now on to read what I'm sure will be 7 pages of sad.

lol people's comments in that thread blew my mind away to be honest. i swear this series brings out the sadism in everyone

[belladeuil]

For as much as people hate Cersei does anyone think parading her naked through the streets was wrong? I think this reeks of sexism. IIRC wasnt she being punished for adultery which is a sin and not evern a crime? She hasnt been convicted of any crimes yet that is what the trial is for? How can she be punished before being found guilty? Can you picture them doing this to a man? How many widowed men in the series have done what Cersei has done and 10 times worse and it isnt a secret it is common knowledge and i dont see the HS stripping then down naked and parading them through the street with their shriveled old junk hanging out for all of KL to see? Why the huge double stanndard?

My theory is that this was her uncle Kevin and the HS's way of "stripping" her of power and influence just like Tywin did to their father's mistress? It seems like everytime a woman starts to get too powerful and influential then the men that feel threatened by her do this to shame her in the eyes of the other lords and common people so they wont respect her anymore and discourages other women from becoming to ambitious. It is a way for them men to assert their authority over women and to keep them in their subordinate place in society.

The World of A Song of Ice and Fire is a sexist world. Cersei Lannister chose to walk naked to through the streets as atonement for her sins. The High Septon did not force her, he simply refused to release her unless she atoned for her sins by walking naked in the streets. Cersei Lannister could have chosen to remain in the Faith's custody. The reason Cersei Lannister has not been convicted of any crimes is because there has been no trial to convict her yet. The reason why Cersei Lannister is going to have a trial is because she was been accused and charged with treason, incest, deicide, adultery etc. The Walk of Shame is not a punishment, it is an act of atonement done 'willingly' by the sinner who wishes to be cleansed of their crime. Besides, Cersei Lannister has confessed to fornication. Her confession makes her guilty and negates the need for a trial to judge if she is guilty of fornication. There is a huge double standard because Cersei Lannister is a woman and in the world of A Song of Ice and Fire, there is a double standard in favour of men.

The fact that Cersei Lannister chose to do the Walk of Shame shows how incompetent a ruler she truly was. She felt that the ordeal would be a one time event that once over, will allow her to wield the power and influence which she had wielded before her arrest. She did not realised that by doing parading herself naked, she is forever ensuring she will never again be a respected figure of authority and will therefore make it harder for her to wield power and influence, if she ever manages to wield power and influence again. Kevan Lannister's objection to his niece ruling is not based on her gender. Indeed, despite the double standard in the Seven Kingdoms, women were allowed to wield power as regents for their sons. The reason why Kevan Lannister allowed the Walk of Shame is because he felt he needed to placate the Faith, even at the expense of his own House, and if it would ensure his incompetent niece would never return to power, then so be it. She was an awful ruler, he felt, and needed to be kept away from her son and the seat of power. Certainly, the fact that she was a woman made life more difficult for Cersei Lannister but it was her incompetence which led to her downfall. Men in the Seven Kingdoms accepted female regents. After all, they did accept Cersei Lannister and Lysa Arryn as Regents upon the deaths of their husbands. It was Cersei Lannister's incompetence, not her gender, that led to the Walk of Shame. As for the High Septon, he is clearly a misogynist. Whether or not he felt Cersei Lannister had to be put in her place as a woman who had risen too high or that he genuinely wanted a sinner to atone for her crimes is unknown.

[Vesemir]

I really don't think Cersei's WoS was a punishment for sleeping with other guys, when her husband is dead. It's just a Kevan's way to strip her off her pride and power. Look at Genna Lannister. It seems like it is general knowledge of her cheating on her husband, but no one cares about it.

[Hippocras]

Time is a flat circle. Tywin made his father's mistress walk the walk and then his daughter had to do it. Wonderful literary technique.

Or more than that?

The Walk of Shame was Revenge. Someone is exacting revenge through the Sparrows.

Option 1: Dorne

Option 2: Descendants of thee Reynes, Tarbecks, and Tytos's mistress. Which begs the quesion - who exactly WAS Tytos's mistress and where did she go?

[SeanF]

Since the other thread got locked, I guess I'll just address this here (it was a response to me)

The crime Cersei was actually punished for-- the one she confessed to and was given the WOS as "atonement"-- is the "crime" of having had sex with Lancel and that Kettleblack after Robert died. As a widow. No adultery. No "treason."

If you want to play the "she got it so much better" card, why don't you sit and reflect on the fact that an unmarried woman who has consensual sex is guilty of a crime, in a society where sex is not considered a crime for men. At all. So, I'm not really sure that the "women have it easier" argument makes a whole lot of sense in this context.

No one in Westeros seems to have regarded sex outside marriage as a crime, up until the WOS was devised. Unmarried noblewomen have taken lovers, in the past, without being considered criminals.

Nor is it really a penance. No one's going to become a reformed character, because they were paraded naked before a leering mob. Nor is the spectacle edifying for the onlookers. It's a power-play. The HS is warning the upper classes what he can do to them, if they cross him.

[Vesemir]

No one in Westeros seems to have regarded sex outside marriage as a crime, up until the WOS was devised. Unmarried noblewomen have taken lovers, in the past, without being considered criminals.

Nor is it really a penance. No one's going to become a reformed character, because they were paraded naked before a leering mob. Nor is the spectacle edifying for the onlookers. It's a power-play. The HS is warning the upper classes what he can do to them, if they cross him.

:agree:

[Hippocras]

It's a power-play. The HS is warning the upper classes what he can do to them, if they cross him.

Well I think it is too specific to be only about that. The replication of what Tywin did to his father's mistress is a revenge move designed to inflict maximum damage on the Lannisters.

[butterbumps!]

No one in Westeros seems to have regarded sex outside marriage as a crime, up until the WOS was devised. Unmarried noblewomen have taken lovers, in the past, without being considered criminals.

Nor is it really a penance. No one's going to become a reformed character, because they were paraded naked before a leering mob. Nor is the spectacle edifying for the onlookers. It's a power-play. The HS is warning the upper classes what he can do to them, if they cross him.

I'm not sure if I really understand the point you're trying to make.

It goes without saying that enforcement of punishments, especially public ones, typically have ulterior political motives. When Stannis is committed to burn Mance for oathbreaking, despite recognizing Mance's clear utility alive, he cites the fact that he must not tacitly encourage further oathbreaking by taking a harsh stand with this one.

Remarking on the fact that there are ulterior motives at play here doesn't really say anything.

It doesn't matter if widow fornication is a long-punished crime or not. What does matter is that this is the specifically addressed crime she was officially punished for. Which is misogynistic, and only a crime because she is a female. Kind of like how no one gives a shit if a noble man has his "maidenhead" in tact prior to his wedding, how there isn't a corollary to "Maiden's Day" at the Sept, and how fathering bastards with reckless abandon is only treason if you are a woman. An argument that there is not embedded societal recognition of a woman's sexuality as public property really does not hold up.

The point I was making in my post (in response to a poster who was convinced that a WoS was a cake-walk, nbd, and an example of how "women have it better") is to point out that the only reason Cersei was accused of the crimes she was accused of in the first place is because those actions are only crimes if a female commits them. As in, it's silly to say a WoS is an example of a woman "getting off easy" when it was a punishment for a crime that only pertains to females. So such an assertion that this is an "easy punishment" is nonsense, since men wouldn't be punished for having sex. The society's view of gender just doesn't operate that way.

[Hippocras]

First of all, let me state that I am a woman, and if judged by FAIRNESS alone, historic double standards against women sleeping around are not something I like much.

But...think seriously about why those restrictions existed:

1. There was no such thing as condoms, diaphrams, birth control pills etc. Birth control by being careful with one's cycle is extremely unreliable - no way to actually predict exactly when you are at a "dangerous" moment in your cycle if your goal is to not get pregnant.

2. In feudal societies and most before and since, property, wealth, status were all guaranteed through inheritance. People needed to be certain that any children are the rightful ones to inherrit. In that, women are intrisically at a disadvantage because while men can simply not acknowledge any children they may father outside of their sanctioned relationship, women cannot. It is painfully obvious to everyone that she is having a child, and that child had better damned well be a legitimate one. This is why the rules were enforced unequally.

So - It is a really big crime for Cersei to sleep around because she is queen, and her children could then pretend (as they are in fact doing) to have a right to the throne. It is all about inheritance rights and property.

[Hippocras]

That said, as I said above,

The shame walk was REVENGE