Heresy 94 The White Walkers

[King of Winters]

Citation?

I can't find the quote, I think it might've been in a So Spake George thing. I'll try and find it.

[Yield.]

Citation?

Here ya go:

Is there a closer relationship between the children of the forest and the Others than there might seem to be?

Possibly, possibly. It's a topic that will be developing as the story continues, and so I can't say much more right now.

[Melifeather]

Ah yes, one of my favourite bits:

Lord Mormont is the Lord Commander of the Nights Watch, an organisation which for thousands of years has dedicated itself to defending the realms of men against the darkness, commonly understood to be the Others. Mormont is unquestionably worried and is begging Lord Tyrion, the Queen’s brother, for assistance:

"I tell you my lord, the darkness is coming. There are wild things in the woods, direwolves and mammoths, and snow bears the size of aurochs, I have seen darker shapes in my dreams"

"In your dreams," Tyrion echoed, thinking how badly he needed another strong drink.

Mormont was deaf to the edge in his voice. "The fisherfolk near Eastwatch have glimpsed white walkers on the shore."

This time Tyrion could not hold his tongue. "The fisherfolk of Lannisport often glimpse merlings."

"Denys Mallister writes that the mountain people are moving south, slipping past the Shadow Tower in numbers greater than before. They are running, my lord... but running from what?" Lord Mormont moved to the window and stared out into the night. "These are old bones, Lannister, but they have never felt a chill like this. Tell the king what I say, I pray you. Winter is coming, and when the Long Night falls, only the Nights Watch will stand between the realm and the darkness that sweeps from the north."

At no point does Mormont mention the Others. All he has to do is say that there are reported sightings of the Others, stirring again after all these thousands of years. Its why the Watch exists and why the Watch must be supported and reinforced.

But no. Mormont speaks of his uneasiness; he speaks of direwolves, mammoths, snow bears and aurochs, he speaks of the mountain people fleeing south from something unknown, he speaks of his troubled dreams, and in the middle of it all he mentions that white walkers have been glimpsed on the shore near Eastwatch, but his concern is along the lines of, you don’t normally see them this far south at this time of year. He conspicuously doesn’t say bar the doors and lock up your daughters, the Others have been sighted near Eastwatch. Yes, its possible to echo Tyrion’s scepticism, but if he associated them at all with the Others, his very first duty was to verify or disprove the sighting because if they were the Others he should be sounding the horn thrice, calling the banners and telling the southern lordling right at the very outset that the Others had been seen. Direwolves, mammoths and snow bears mean squat. It’s the Others which are the danger, but no there’s no mention of Others, just that mention halfway down the list of his concerns, after the direwolves and everything else, his bad dreams included, one of the things that makes him uneasy is that white walkers have been seen near Eastwatch, and because he doesn’t make that connection to Tyron or to us, neither do we as readers make the connection until several chapters later when Old Nan agrees with Bran that they are one and the same.

My interpretation is that Mormont views the sightings much like early American calvary may have viewed sightings of a small handful of Native American scouts. A few are sent out ahead prior to an attack. You don't necessarily sound the alarm for the scouting group. You take note and you prepare for the coming attack.

Last night I was introducing the HBO series to someone yesterday and was watching them on blue ray, and early in the show was a scene where Arya first meets Syrio:

“Just so. Now we will begin the dance. Remember, child, this is not the iron dance of Westeros we are learning, the knight’s dance, hacking and hammering, no. This is the bravo’s dance, the water dance, swift and sudden. All men are made of water, do you know this? When you pierce them, the water leaks out and they die.” He took a step backward, raised his own wooden blade. “Now you will try to strike me.”

Doesn't that bolded line make you switch your thoughts immediately to the White Walkers? There must be a connection. Humans are made of water, White Walkers are made of ice. Pierce a human and "water" (blood) leaks out and they die. Pierce a WW with obsidian/dragonglass and they melt and evaporate away.

[Tyryan Lannister]

No, the quote does not suggest any connection between the Popsicles and the CotF.

But he has admitted that there is a connection between the two.

And while it is not an in text relation, the Sidhe reference suggests a common Celtic influence---so, at the very least, there is some sort of connection between the two within Martin's mind (it could be as simple as they are both Old Races, though :dunno: )

[Tyryan Lannister]

I can't find the quote, I think it might've been in a So Spake George thing. I'll try and find it.

It was, but doing to many other things right now to search it

EDIT: Nevermind, looks like Yield did the work already :cool4:

Here ya go:

Is there a closer relationship between the children of the forest and the Others than there might seem to be?

Possibly, possibly. It's a topic that will be developing as the story continues, and so I can't say much more right now.

[Urrax2]

Here ya go:

Is there a closer relationship between the children of the forest and the Others than there might seem to be?

Possibly, possibly. It's a topic that will be developing as the story continues, and so I can't say much more right now.

Thanks. So, not only does the original quote not suggest any connection between the Popsicles and the CotF, we have no other evidence to that effect.

[Yield.]

One thing I'd like to do early on is consolidate those lists of facts, legends and myths in Grey Words' list, and likewise the theories.

Everything else aside there is still a very widespread degree of confusion and uncertainty as to who is who:

We have Others, White Walkers (with multiple aliases) and Wights; we need to clearly distinguish between the latter two at least (yes I know those of us who are grown old in heresy...) and see is we can come to some sort of consensus on the Others.

As a starting point, I'd like to propose that the White Walkers are the beautiful but deadly different form of life described in GRRM's email and quite different from the dead Wights, but that collectively they are the Others, ie; while we have evidence of the white walkers being around in the background north of the wall long before the story opens, its only when they become associated with the wights that they are recognised as the Others.

Although they themselves are a different sibject it might also be useful to touch on the hinted at connection to the Children, and also see whether we're agreed the Others are not led by the Great Other.

As you might guess I can't agree to the bolded part of this. As I have outlined on previous Heresies the problem for me is one of grammar and one of usage within the novels:-

First white walker (never capitalised in text) is a common noun, meaning it is a group that contains subgroups; i.e. dogs (common noun.)

Other (always capitalised in text) is a proper noun, meaning that it is a particular category within a larger group; i.e. Golden Retriever (proper noun.)

Further in text the two times they actually appear Martin always refers to them as the Other(s), never the white walker(s). Yes Sam associates in his thoughts the white walkers, the white mists and the Others before he meets Ser Puddles but during both encounters there is no ambiguity of text. The elegant, inhuman being with the reflective armour and icy blade is always an Other.

I would say that if we are going to group the Popsicles and wights together, the term I would use would be white walkers for both rather than Other.

The underlined part of your post is most interesting and I think it's one area we haven't developed enough. I, for one, don't think the Popsicles are the agents of the Great Other because I don't think the Great Other exists any more than R'hllor. I think they are both a human construct for forces that can't otherwise be understood by man. The Popsies are their own beings and possibly originate from the Land of Always Winter. Just like dragons existed on their own in Valyria.

This begs the question what does Old bear think the WW are?

My thoughts on this one is that either Mormont doesn't know that the wildling word for an Other is white walker or the specific type of white walker, be it a Cold God, Craster's sons or wight was not made clear to him so he doesn't understand if it's an immediate threat or just a malevolent sighting.

To clarify: Craster's wives react in a non-emergency manor to the coming of the Cold Winds. They have a sense of urgency where Gilly and Monster are concerned because they want to make good their escape before the Boy's arrive rather than they fear the Boy's arrival in and of itself. It could be this type of warning that the fisher folk give to Eastwatch. Yes the WWs have appeared but so long as we stay clear, no harm, no foul.

:dunno:

[King of Winters]

Thanks. So, not only does the original quote not suggest any connection between the Popsicles and the CotF, we have no other evidence to that effect.

I think just by him starting out with "possibly" indicates, to me, that there one.

[Yield.]

Thanks. So, not only does the original quote not suggest any connection between the Popsicles and the CotF, we have no other evidence to that effect.

NP. Yeah as usual he is ambiguous in his answer, but I think just that fact that he can't answer is a hint in itself no?

[Grey Words]

Brilliant opening BC! I've been waiting for this topic a while now, and I'm already hyped about it.

As to the WW, they could be like the COTF where they are gifted with very long lives but aren't able to breed (if they even can) a lot. So maybe they've always lived in the LoAW, and when the time came the COTF seeker their help on the matter of the Wall and to help them reclaim some land for themselves and the remainder of the Old Races, so and uneasy alliance.

And maybe now they're using Craster's boys as a life force thing or they are turning them into fellow WW, but I think the COTF have sort of reinvoked their alliance with the WW as there are no more Starks in Winterfell and the Pact (one of them) had been broken, so the COTF yet again need the WW to sort the situation out with Men.

Changing alliances and sworn oaths being dishonored and broken are a big themes all though the story and could have a lot to do with why so much is stirring north of the Wall.

One thing I'd like to do early on is consolidate those lists of facts, legends and myths in Grey Words' list, and likewise the theories.

Everything else aside there is still a very widespread degree of confusion and uncertainty as to who is who:

We have Others, White Walkers (with multiple aliases) and Wights; we need to clearly distinguish between the latter two at least (yes I know those of us who are grown old in heresy...) and see is we can come to some sort of consensus on the Others.

As a starting point, I'd like to propose that the White Walkers are the beautiful but deadly different form of life described in GRRM's email and quite different from the dead Wights, but that collectively they are the Others, ie; while we have evidence of the white walkers being around in the background north of the wall long before the story opens, its only when they become associated with the wights that they are recognised as the Others.

Although they themselves are a different sibject it might also be useful to touch on the hinted at connection to the Children, and also see whether we're agreed the Others are not led by the Great Other.

"Others" as a collective term for the WWs is reasonable starting point and IMO that collective is the Great Other as well.

I'm reminded of that discussion of what Old Bear said to Tyrion in AGOT when he said that "fisherfolk near Eastwatch have glimpsed white walkers on the shore" which would be weird since if Old Bear knows then the NW at Eastwatch must have known in which case the three blast would have been blown, but they weren't, they're only blown for Others, not White Walkers. Which I find weird since the purpose of the NW (now) is to keep them away from the Wall and out of the south.

Yeah, Mormont's response to the sighting doesn't make sense, I've wondered if he's so aware of the skepticism south of the Wall regarding their existence that he just mentions the big scary tangible creatures - the things men would feel more compelled to go up against.

This begs the question what does Old bear think the WW are?

Good question.

Here ya go:

Is there a closer relationship between the children of the forest and the Others than there might seem to be?

Possibly, possibly. It's a topic that will be developing as the story continues, and so I can't say much more right now.

Thanks for that, Yield. Am just waking up and couldn't find it. As it'd been brought up so many times I errantly blew it off as known.

My interpretation is that Mormont views the sightings much like early American calvary may have viewed sightings of a small handful of Native American scouts. A few are sent out ahead prior to an attack. You don't necessarily sound the alarm for the scouting group. You take note and you prepare for the coming attack.

Last night I was introducing the HBO series to someone yesterday and was watching them on blue ray, and early in the show was a scene where Arya first meets Syrio:

“Just so. Now we will begin the dance. Remember, child, this is not the iron dance of Westeros we are learning, the knight’s dance, hacking and hammering, no. This is the bravo’s dance, the water dance, swift and sudden. All men are made of water, do you know this? When you pierce them, the water leaks out and they die.” He took a step backward, raised his own wooden blade. “Now you will try to strike me.”

Doesn't that bolded line make you switch your thoughts immediately to the White Walkers? There must be a connection. Humans are made of water, White Walkers are made of ice. Pierce a human and "water" (blood) leaks out and they die. Pierce a WW with obsidian/dragonglass and they melt and evaporate away.

Fair analogy with Mormont assuming the WWs were just on a recce - and maybe he's well aware of them not initiating aggression?

[King of Winters]

To clarify: Craster's wives react in a non-emergency manor to the coming of the Cold Winds. They have a sense of urgency where Gilly and Monster are concerned because they want to make good their escape before the Boy's arrive rather than they fear the Boy's arrival in and of itself. It could be this type of warning that the fisher folk give to Eastwatch. Yes the WWs have appeared but so long as we stay clear, no harm, no foul.

:dunno:

But even the appearance of WW should be enough to make the NW alerted and preparing their defences.

[Yield.]

But even the appearance of WW should be enough to make the NW alerted and preparing their defences.

That's what I think too. Which is why I am caught between the Old Bear not understanding what a WW is or there is more than one type. Or, to confuse this a bit more, the Popsicles aren't the threat, it's the wights that are what should be sounding the alarm.

[King of Winters]

That's what I think too. Which is why I am caught between the Old Bear not understanding what a WW is or there is more than one type. Or, to confuse this a bit more, the Popsicles aren't the threat, it's the wights that are what should be sounding the alarm.

As BC said in the OP, the "Others" are what the WW and Wights are called when they're together , but when they're separate, they're called what they actually are. So the three horns are meant for when they're both seen together near the Wall.

[Grey Words]

snip

So essentially what you're saying is that the term Others relegates the WWs to the realm of "boogie men" and disregards their reality? The Other term does strengthen the human tendency to demonize that which it doesn't understand, while WW is simply descriptive of what they are. I agree that the Great Other is a human construct and maybe using the term the Others reinforces the myth of a Great Other?

[Tyryan Lannister]

That's what I think too. Which is why I am caught between the Old Bear not understanding what a WW is or there is more than one type. Or, to confuse this a bit more, the Popsicles aren't the threat, it's the wights that are what should be sounding the alarm.

Agreed, although it's not to diminish the threat of the WW or the Cold, but, before all else, the wights are the big problem

[theREALjonsnow]

" What sort of gods make rats and plagues and dwarfs? Another passage from the Seven Pointed Star came back to him. The maid broght him forth a girl as supple as a willow with eyes like deep blue pools, and Hugor declared that he would have her for his bride. So the mother made her fertile, and the Crone fortold that she would bear the king four and fourty might sons. The Warrior gave strength to their arms, whilst the smith wrought for each a suit of iron plates." ADWD Tyrion 2

in regards to the white lot. not to get sidetracked or take the thread off topic but this is something i noticed from Dance and bothered me that i couldn't connect it to the story.

if we take this description of the " origins " of the andal religion while still in Essos, it seems to me a White Walker Bride is at the core of their faith. I say this because her physical description matches the night king's bride. the inability to bear human children was something to be overcome with King's Blood and the Crone mentioning the number 44 ties into the weirwood slaughter of "Nagga ".

if nobody else thinks there is a connection that's fine but i always try to tie in the oldest origin stories in the text to paint a more complete picture of the song of ice and fire universe.

if you do see a connection, then by all means enlighten me.

edit spelling

[Tyryan Lannister]

I agree that the Great Other is a human construct and maybe using the term the Others reinforces the myth of a Great Other?

I believe that Martin uses these terms so as to confuse the reader into make this exact erroneous association

The important thing to note is that The Great Other is a translation of the Valyrian or Asshai'i term for that entity; it could be that there just in not a better means of translating it

And we do not know what the Valyrians nor the Asshai'i would translate the catchall "Others" as--if it's the same term as they use for The Great Other, then a point could be made, but what if the Valyrian/Asshai'i term for the Others is "the ones from the Ice" and the term for The Great Other is literally translated as "The Great Other One" (thus being in relation to R'hllor) and they just drop the term "one" seeing as it is implied by context? :dunno:

Yes, in English, it is the same term, but that does not mean a common origin, especially since one is a translation, and we have no way of knowing how loose that translation is

[Tyryan Lannister]

" What sort of gods make rats and plagues and dwarfs? Another passage from the Seven Pointed Star came back to him. The maid broght him forth a girl as supple as a willow with eyes like deep blue pools, and Hugor declared that he would have her for his bride. So the mother made her fertile, and the Crone fortold that she would bear the king four and fourty might sons. The Warrior gave strength to their arms, whilst the smith wrought for each a suit of iron plates." ADWD Tyrion 2

in regards to the white lot. not to get sidetracked or take the thread off topic but this is something i noticed from Dance and bothered me that i couldn't connect it to the story.

if we take this description of the " origins " of the andal religion while still in Essos, it seems to me a White Walker Bride is at the core of their faith. I say this because her physical description matches the night king's bride. the inability to bear human children was something to be overcome with King's Blood and the Crone mentioning the number 44 ties into the weirwood slaughter of "Nagga ".

if nobody else thinks there is a connection that's fine but i always try to tie in the oldest origin stories in the text to paint a more complete picture of the song of ice and fire universe.

if you do see a connection, then by all means enlighten me.

edit spelling

maybe Martin just likes the poetry of four and forty? :dunno:

[shahinos]

Two reflections that may or may not have been touched upon in previous Heresies.

1. I really like the idea of balance between ice and fire. However, I do see some discrepancy between the supposed agents of fire and agents of ice. I see dragons as pure animals and I also interpret the information from the books and short stories in the same way. They are fierce, ruthless animals, not capable of intelligent thought. The white walkers, on the other hand, are more human-like. They have armour, weapons (that may have been crafted by the Children) and they seem to control the dead-but-risen-again humans. All this implies a higher level of intelligence. Just based on these ideas, the white walkers feel more powerful than the dragons. Has this been discussed previously?

2. The idea of a pact between the creatures of magic and mankind reminded me of the pact between mankind and the Cylons in Battlestar Galactica. The Cylons broke the pact and went on the offensive in order to defend themselves. Not sure if there are any parallels with our story though...

[wolfmaid7]

Been waiting for this topic forever :drool:

Nice OP Grey Words,i am especially glad you touched on the Elementals which i think is important and will note this important feature,that while Elementals are necessary they are a natural hazard..You can cross them if you breach their rules.Now into the WWs

I will start by highlighting a few things;the White Mist,White cold, is not the White Walkers,nor does it have anything to do with the WWs.

what the Wlidlings and Craster's wives are talking about is the "Snow storm" that comes out of nowhere and that Snow storm is always accompanied by Wights.."The cold winds rising" is also associated with Wights and not WWs

That won't help you none when the White cold comes,Gilly had spoken of the White cold as well"(Sam.asos,pg.445).
"He gives the boys to the gods.Come the White cold,he does"(ACOK,pg.370).

Craster's old wife told Sam the same "The white cold is rising out there,these old bones know"

A man can fight the dead, but when their masters come, when the white mists rise up how do you fights a mist crow? Shadows with teeth air so cold it hurts to breath, like a knife inside your chest you do not know, you cannot know can your sword cut cold?( ADWD,Jon Chp 58).

All these text point to "a meteorological event" Snow Storm,that Tourmond and others think is the WWs but they are not this only happens when Wights are near.There has been no eye witness account that links the WWs to any of these events except what people "think". Which leads me to this

The issue to me that is clear and is problematic is this term "Others":

Oh, my sweet summer child,” Old Nan said quietly, “what do you know of fear? Fear is for the winter, my little lord, when the snows fall a hundred feet deep and the ice wind comes howling out of the north. Fear is for the long night, when the sun hides its face for years at a time, and little children are born and live and die all in darkness while the dire wolves grow gaunt and hungry, and the white walkers move through the woods.”

“You mean the Others,” Bran said querulously.

“The Others,” Old Nan agreed

.

The above quote makes my Spidy sense go off,and it has less to do with Bran's words and more to do with Nan's,i believe her first statement was right and she said what was correctness are WWs and i think over the years they got grafted into who the Other's were.Every characteristic she describes,what a lot of characters describe,some stories in the Annals describe actions of the Wights not WWs.

The Others come when it is cold, most of the tales agree. Or else it gets cold when they come. Sometimes they appear during snow-storms and melt away again when the skies clear. They hide from the light of the sun and emerge by night... or else night falls when they emerge .Some stories speak of them riding the corpses of dead animals.... Men who fall in battle against the Others must be burned, or else the dead will rise again as their thralls...

in that darkness, the Others came for the first time, They were cold things, dead things, that hated iron and fire and the touch of the sun, and every creature with hot blood in its veins. They swept over holdfasts and cities and kingdoms, felled heroes and armies by the score, riding their pale dead horses and leading hosts of the slain. All the swords of men could not stay their advance, and even maidens and suckling babes found no pity in them. They hunted the maids through frozen forests, and fed their dead servants on the flesh of human children (AGOT Bran chpt 24)

I think Westros has merged WWs with the behavior and characteristics of the Wights and don't even know they did it.All these stories with they exception of WW riding a dead horse is Wights they are talking about.. Look at the above quote "they swept over holdfasts" does the WWs look like they can sweep over anything,we have 5 of them.And if the story of balance holds and held true then in the past there were just as little WWs