Rhaegar and Aegon

[Rhaegar I Targaryen]

Also, is there any reason to think Rhaegar wasn't in the Red Keep when Brandon showed up? I always thought he was there and that he cut and ran as son as Brandon challenged him to a duel.

Your ridiculous little opinion has been noted. You indicate that you've always thought this, and I can't see anyone always/automatically thinking something which has absolutely no foundation in the book unless they have a complete bias against the character.

[Aetta]

When reading post of Aegon I see a lot of people claim being learned is not enough yet Rhaegar only had being learned to his name and so main people on the board saw him as the greatest would be king ever . Why does this make Rhaegar Jaeherys reborn and Aegon a mere nerd?

Rhaegar had the benefit of the full knowledge of his duty, his legacy, and his place because he grew up at court. He watched his father rule the kingdom before him and he had at the ready a supporting staff of people waiting to facilitate his rule.

Rhaegar also had a comparably more stable kingdom, before he went all lusty with Lyanna, than the one that is left to Aegon. We are lead to believe that Rhaegar is so good, in fact, that the other lords may have been conspiring with him to ease Aerys off the throne so that Rhaegar can reinvigorate the trust of the nobility and maintain the love of the smallfolk. A prince that is revered by his nobles in such a manner must have had impressive character, or so we would assume. Aegon has no such track record yet, maybe not ever and certainly does not have the love of the nobles, which makes it an uphill battle unlike Rhaegar would have known. That can make all the difference in the chances for success.

[Wmarshal]

1. Ahh, you know that do you? Have a direct personal line to GRRM? We have no idea what Brandon believed to be true, and even less idea how he got whatever information he got, nor if it was accurate.

2. :shocked: I hope for your family's sake you don't ever have a sister in trouble then....

3. Sure you can. But what we have is evidence that points to respect. What we don't have is evidence that points to disrespect. Not even a little bit.

4. We don't know all the things he did or didn't do. Among things we do know - he was bookish, early, enough that he was practically a running joke, but that something he read made him change everything one day and become a warrior, and a passably good one at that. He was a very good jouster, enough to win one challenge tourney and in another draw (be declared the winner over) with Arthur Dayne after they broke a dozen or so lances against each other. We know that the smallfolk cheered for Tywin twice as much as Aerys, yet Rhaegar twice as much as Tywin. Somehow they liked him for something. We know that dutiful (responsible) was his most dominant characteristic. We know that he was a good enough fighter to lose only narrowly to the god-of-war Robert, wounding him badly enough that he couldn't travel on to KL immediately. We know that even as a child his wit and intellect was enough to awe the Maesters of Hightower. We know that Jaime Lannister remembers the iron in his voice and thinks he would have been a good king. We know that Jorah Mormont, who would not have known Rhaegar well personally knew enough of his reputation to know that he would have been against rape after conquest.

We have plenty enough data to see the picture that has been painted for us...

Yes. Aerys asked around for where Rhaegar was at the time and no one knew, or at least could tell him.

1) He left at the dead at night without a word then disappeared that is what happened by all appearance this is a kudnapping.

2) Please find the rapest find your sister

Finding Rhaegar is finding your sister.

3) The only evidence we have is that he respected Arthur but none respecting Rhaegar.

4) He did nothing again Barry looked for things to say of him he had only tourneys.

Jorah was spy and afterward only wanted to tell Dany what she wanted to hear. Rhaegar was no warrior he fought one battle and lost. It does not take much to sit and wait after a battle without your maester. He does not take much to get the smallfolk to love you look at Renly. Jaime let his family die of course hr has iron his voice and he has only known mad men as king. He was smart so what he never used his brains.

[Rhaegar I Targaryen]

We have no way of knowing the circumstances of Lyanna's disappearance, but the idea that Rhaegar kidnapped and then proceeded to rape her until he left for the Trident just seems preposterous, totally out of character, and frankly, like bad writing.

[Wmarshal]

We have no way of knowing the circumstances of Lyanna's disappearance, but the idea that Rhaegar kidnapped and then proceeded to rape her until he left for the Trident just seems preposterous, totally out of character, and frankly, like bad writing.

To us but to the rest of Westeros it looked like rape.

[NOT A TARG I SWEAR]

Was it? I don't remember anything about turmoils.

there were many, many turmoils

[Jon's Queen Consort]

there were many, many turmoils

I don't remember that it was mentioned. I remember about the War of the Ninepenny Kings but no conflicts, no open war, just coverted hostility.

To that we agree my friend, and do believe I am a friend to supporters of Aegon V.

:D :cheers:

[Fred of Ashai]

Yes. Aerys asked around for where Rhaegar was at the time and no one knew, or at least could tell him.

That was much later, after Brandon and Rickard were dead. Aerys was looking for Rhaegar to lead his army at the Battle of the Bells. When Rhaegar couldn't be found, he named Connington Hand and sent him to fight the battle.

[Fred of Ashai]

Your ridiculous little opinion has been noted. You indicate that you've always thought this, and I can't see anyone always/automatically thinking something which has absolutely no foundation in the book unless they have a complete bias against the character.

Brandon and half a dozen Lords' heirs thought he was there. They had some reason to think that (rather than, say, Dragonstone) was where he was.

[corbon]

That was much later, after Brandon and Rickard were dead. Aerys was looking for Rhaegar to lead his army at the Battle of the Bells. When Rhaegar couldn't be found, he named Connington Hand and sent him to fight the battle.

I think you are confused about this but I can't find the references either way. As I recall it the reason we know Rhaegar wasn't present is because Aerys asked for him and no one knew where he was. Otherwise for all we'd know he was there but simply didn't respond to Brandon's challenge. Connington was named Hand not because Aerys couldn't find Rhaegar at that time, but because he wanted someone young and vigorous (contrasting with Lord Merryweather).

Brandon and half a dozen Lords' heirs thought he was there. They had some reason to think that (rather than, say, Dragonstone) was where he was.

Riiight, The same way Stannis was habitually to be found on Dragonstone before the death of Jon Arryn. Or not.

We have no idea why they thought Rhaegar would be in Kings Landing but given his family lived there its probably where he was based most of the time, Prince of Dragonstone or not. Just like Stannis was.

BTW, Rhaegar had 4 companions, only one of which is known to be a Lord's Heir - Elbert Arryn.

[Fred of Ashai]

I think you are confused about this but I can't find the references either way. As I recall it the reason we know Rhaegar wasn't present is because Aerys asked for him and no one knew where he was. Otherwise for all we'd know he was there but simply didn't respond to Brandon's challenge. Connington was named Hand not because Aerys couldn't find Rhaegar at that time, but because he wanted someone young and vigorous (contrasting with Lord Merryweather).

It's from a Jamie chapter in Feast for Crows.

Jon Connington had been a prince Rhaegar's friend. When Merryweather failed so dismally to contain Robert's Rebellion and Prince Rhaegar could not be found, Aerys turned to the next best thing and raised Connington to the Handship.

So the time when Aerys could not find Rhaegar is some months into the rebellion (although that doesn't necessarily mean that Rhaegar was at the Red Keep when Brandon arrived, that's the way I read it).

Riiight, The same way Stannis was habitually to be found on Dragonstone before the death of Jon Arryn. Or not.

We have no idea why they thought Rhaegar would be in Kings Landing but given his family lived there its probably where he was based most of the time, Prince of Dragonstone or not. Just like Stannis was.

BTW, Rhaegar had 4 companions, only one of which is known to be a Lord's Heir - Elbert Arryn.

Sure, King's Landing was a logical place to look, but I think that riding in and demanding that Rhaegar come out and die makes me think Brandon had reason to believe Rhaegar was there.

On second thoughts, I think you are right about the heirs -- Brandon's companions (except Elbert) were lord's sons, not heirs. Elbert was an heir but not a lord's son.

[Natasi]

I'm always shocked by how willing some readers are to excuse the behavior of the rebels and justify their grievances when they were acting on virtually no information and gave in to brash emotion. If it turns out, in the end, that Rhaegar's actions facilitated the survival of the realm against the Others, I hope people will stop trying to vilify him.

On topic, if Aegon is really Rhaegar's son, I hope he lives up to the legacy of his father (ie. Everyone thinks highly of Rhaegar and the hope they had for his reign) whether or not he ever sits the throne.

[Wmarshal]

I'm always shocked by how willing some readers are to excuse the behavior of the rebels and justify their grievances when they were acting on virtually no information and gave in to brash emotion. If it turns out, in the end, that Rhaegar's actions facilitated the survival of the realm against the Others, I hope people will stop trying to vilify him.

On topic, if Aegon is really Rhaegar's son, I hope he lives up to the legacy of his father (ie. Everyone thinks highly of Rhaegar and the hope they had for his reign) whether or not he ever sits the throne.

It was purely about getting in her pants. He crowned her before Aegon was born and Elia was still fertile. He left the second she could not have kids any more. The prophecy was a excuse.

[Rhaegar I Targaryen]

I'm always shocked by how willing some readers are to excuse the behavior of the rebels and justify their grievances when they were acting on virtually no information and gave in to brash emotion. If it turns out, in the end, that Rhaegar's actions facilitated the survival of the realm against the Others, I hope people will stop trying to vilify him.

On topic, if Aegon is really Rhaegar's son, I hope he lives up to the legacy of his father (ie. Everyone thinks highly of Rhaegar and the hope they had for his reign) whether or not he ever sits the throne.

Post of the year! Whoop whoop! :commie: :commie: :commie:

:wub: :wub: :wub:

[corbon]

It's from a Jamie chapter in Feast for Crows.

So the time when Aerys could not find Rhaegar is some months into the rebellion (although that doesn't necessarily mean that Rhaegar was at the Red Keep when Brandon arrived, that's the way I read it)..

Thanks.

I still have a lingering suspicion that the first time Aerys tried to find Rhaegar was before Brandon's trial though. The quote you found does not clearly show that he was only looked for after Merryweather's failures, just that he (possibly still) couldn't be found then.

[Rhaegar I Targaryen]

Sure, King's Landing was a logical place to look, but I think that riding in and demanding that Rhaegar come out and die makes me think Brandon had reason to believe Rhaegar was there.

I disagree. Brandon was hotheaded, he rode straight to King's Landing and entered the Red Keep in a fit of rage. Now, he probably had reason to believe Rhaegar was there, but only if you consider the fact that it was where Rhaegar lived as valid evidence. This in no way lends itself to the idea that Rhaegar was there, but chose not to answer the call. Lyanna would have never allowed Brandon to sit in the dungeons while they waited for Lord Stark to make his way south, and it really doesn't sound like something Rhaegar would do either. He certainly would have never been a party to how his father handled the situation.

There is also no reason to believe that Rhaegar would have hid from Brandon, he very well may have bested him in a duel. In addition to be the Crown Prince and expertly trained, he spent all his time in King's Landing surrounded by some of the best swordsmen in the realm. That is no gimme win for Brandon.

[Fred of Ashai]

Thanks.

I still have a lingering suspicion that the first time Aerys tried to find Rhaegar was before Brandon's trial though. The quote you found does not clearly show that he was only looked for after Merryweather's failures, just that he (possibly still) couldn't be found then.

Oops, Corbon, it looks like you were right about this after all. I looked at this some more and in Clash of Kings Jaime tells Catelyn about Brandon:

He rode into the Red Keep with a few companions, shouting for Prince Rhaegar to come out and die. But Rhaegar wasn't there.

So unless Jaime was lying to Catelyn, which seems unlikely in these circumstances, that shoots the theory that Rhaegar fled from a duel with Brandon (although I still think it was pretty cowardly for Rhaegar to run off and hide in the first place, but that is a different matter).

[corbon]

Oops, Corbon, it looks like you were right about this after all. I looked at this some more and in Clash of Kings Jaime tells Catelyn about Brandon:

So unless Jaime was lying to Catelyn, which seems unlikely in these circumstances, that shoots the theory that Rhaegar fled from a duel with Brandon (although I still think it was pretty cowardly for Rhaegar to run off and hide in the first place, but that is a different matter).

Thanks for finding that. I thought it was even more explicit than that, but no matter. The 'Rhaegar fled from Brandon' theory is a classic hater's invention with literally zero textual justification and quite clear counters (so he fled from a formal duel with Brandon that need not be to the death, but was happy to face off Robert in a battle where he could easily stay back and be protected by KG?). So much of that sort of bullshit is founded on mistakes and misreadings, its very frustrating.

I personally think it was smart to hide (well, disappear), not cowardly. It should have been the best possible option to enable an actual marriage to go ahead, and stick, with the minimum potential for bigger trouble, but what Brandon did was so incredibly unproductive and stupid that it couldn't be predicted. But each to his own.

[Wmarshal]

Thanks for finding that. I thought it was even more explicit than that, but no matter. The 'Rhaegar fled from Brandon' theory is a classic hater's invention with literally zero textual justification and quite clear counters (so he fled from a formal duel with Brandon that need not be to the death, but was happy to face off Robert in a battle where he could easily stay back and be protected by KG?). So much of that sort of bullshit is founded on mistakes and misreadings, its very frustrating.

I personally think it was smart to hide (well, disappear), not cowardly. It should have been the best possible option to enable an actual marriage to go ahead, and stick, with the minimum potential for bigger trouble, but what Brandon did was so incredibly unproductive and stupid that it couldn't be predicted. But each to his own.

You lost me at it was a smart move.

Rhaegar took a daughter of a lord Paramount who betrothed to a lord who got throne if the Tatgaryens were destroyed. Her brother was betrothed to another lord Paramount's daughter. She also had brother warded by a warden. You are right what Brandon did was not aspected what would been aspected was a host at the walls of King's landing.

[Fred of Ashai]

You lost me at it was a smart move.

Rhaegar took a daughter of a lord Paramount who betrothed to a lord who got throne if the Tatgaryens were destroyed. Her brother was betrothed to another lord Paramount's daughter. She also had brother warded by a warden. You are right what Brandon did was not aspected what would been aspected was a host at the walls of King's landing.

I think Brandon did exactly the right thing, and it is exactly what Rhaegar should have expected (and probably did expect).

When the King commits a crime, who can call him out? Who better than one of the high lords? After all, we know that Westeros is not an absolute monarchy (that's why there is all the talk of the king proposing things and the Small Council concurring, and its why a Great Council can choose the next king if there are legitimate questions over whose claim is best).

And when the King's son commits a crime, who better to call him out than a high lord's heir?

And if you look at the precedent set in The Hedge Knight, you see there is no problem having royal princes fight duels with people of lower status -- Prince Aerion (and others) fought a duel with a hedge knight, after all.

Finally, it appears that it is an accepted practice to fight a duel over marriage rights, that's why Brandon fought a duel with Littlefinger.

So with all that in mind, Brandon did exactly what I would have done and exactly what Rhaegar should have expected him to do. Instead of calling the banners, he challenged Rhaegar to a duel, one-on-one. You could question whether it was more the place of Rickard or Robert to do fight the duel, but Brandon certainly had the right to make the challenge.

The problem was that Rhaegar was too busy running away and hiding even to be there to meet the challenge -- he left it to his crazy father to clean up his mess.

In the end he wound up fighting the duel after all, when he and Robert met at the Trident. Only the way Rhaegar did it, it led to thousands of other people's unecessary deaths. If he had just had the courage to stand up for what he was doing in the first place, all those lives could have been saved and his family probably could have kept its throne. His father would not have been murdered, his brother would not have died a broken man, in exile, his sister would have been spared the hardships she suffered, his mother might have had a less traumatic time birthing Dany and therefore survived, Lyanna might have had better medical care and therefore not died, and so on and so on.

All that because Rhaegar ran away.