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SilentRoamer

Bakker XXV: A Few Questions

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Hello all,



I am just on a re-read of all 5 TSA novels (just started TWP) as I read the original trilogy when they were first released and only recently read TJE and WLW. I can remember very little from TWP and TTT in terms of the little details especially with the TTT appendix. So here are a few questions:



1. Do we know if Kellhus has Nonman blood?


2. Is there mention anywhere of female Inchoroi? I dont recall. I dont recall we even know thay have normal birth cycles?


2b. If not is the Incu-Holoinas one big womb with the male Inchoroi being children? I think the descriptions of Inchoroi resemble fish quite a lot, maybe they were aquatic a few worlds ago living in the belly of their Mother?


3. Any speculation on what Kellhus did when he went to the Outside and do we know what the shrunken heads on his belt are?



Thoughts welcome.






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Hello all,

I am just on a re-read of all 5 TSA novels (just started TWP) as I read the original trilogy when they were first released and only recently read TJE and WLW. I can remember very little from TWP and TTT in terms of the little details especially with the TTT appendix. So here are a few questions:

1. Do we know if Kellhus has Nonman blood?

2. Is there mention anywhere of female Inchoroi? I dont recall. I dont recall we even know thay have normal birth cycles?

2b. If not is the Incu-Holoinas one big womb with the male Inchoroi being children? I think the descriptions of Inchoroi resemble fish quite a lot, maybe they were aquatic a few worlds ago living in the belly of their Mother?

3. Any speculation on what Kellhus did when he went to the Outside and do we know what the shrunken heads on his belt are?

Thoughts welcome.

There is a general Bakker thread, but I don't blame you for starting a new one.... I'm adopting your numbering.

1. We do know for certain that Kellhus has Nonmen blood.

2. There is no mention of female Inchoroi. Your speculation as to the nature of the ship and the Inchoroi may well be correct.

3. What Kellhus did on the Outside is a matter of huge speculation - the heads on his belt are Ciphrang.

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Yeah I see the general thread but I think its easier to get specific answers if you start a new thread! Thanks for posting.



1. Ok this makes sense. Maithanet says something about Inrilatus bones being soft and not like Iron. Maybe this is referencing genetic dominance on the part of Nonman heritage. ie in Moe Sr. Maitha and Kellhus they have Nonman bones.



2. Yeah something definetely to be revealed with the ship and the Inchoroi, would be good to get an Atrocity tale from the PoV of an Inchoroi when they were filling the Abortion Pits.



3. Is it 2 heads on Kellhus belt? If it is maybe Sarl and Kosoter are where the Ciphrang soul ended up. Would make sense why Kosoter was so messed up because he was in the world among Needles.



New Question:



4. Has there been clarification on what exactly the Nail of heaven is? I think I have seen the following conjecture:


a. Remnants of a wormhole which the Inchoroi came through (Think Madness posted this on another forum)


b. A star gone Nova (Not likely as Novas are only visible in Daylight for a few hundred days, at best you could maybe say a year but anything more than that would be absurd.)


c. Just a close bright star. Again not likely if it is visible in daylight.


d. A geosynchronous satellite of some sort.



Maybe the Nail of Heaven is another Ark in orbit and the reason TSTSNBN shall not be named is that it will be a direct indication of the fall of the second Ark. Imagine a Second Ark....


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4. Has there been clarification on what exactly the Nail of heaven is? I think I have seen the following conjecture:

a. Remnants of a wormhole which the Inchoroi came through (Think Madness posted this on another forum)

b. A star gone Nova (Not likely as Novas are only visible in Daylight for a few hundred days, at best you could maybe say a year but anything more than that would be absurd.)

c. Just a close bright star. Again not likely if it is visible in daylight.

d. A geosynchronous satellite of some sort.

Maybe the Nail of Heaven is another Ark in orbit and the reason TSTSNBN shall not be named is that it will be a direct indication of the fall of the second Ark. Imagine a Second Ark....

A) would think nonmen legend would note its appearance coinciding with the ark descending. Possibly the ark arrived in system but then took hundreds or thousands of years to crash.

B ) doesn't make sense.

C) totally possible except if the reference to newborn means it appeared recently. A close star would exactly be visible during daylight. That's like exactly what the sun is. Think binary star system but not quite because it's solar north so would need to not be in gravitational orbit.

D) doesn't work. Stationary orbit at the North Pole is a physics fail. Geostationary orbits only occur along the equator.

Also remember that gods are real and the legend is that Inri Sejenus ascended to the Nail. So could totally be like heaven for real. Or the biggest hole into the Outside. Or whatever.

I like this new thread that just gets numbered like a general thread whenever you want a question answered. Maybe we post TSA here and let the last thread finishing morphin into the feminism and babies in your 40s thread.

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That was why I started a new thread - saw the last one go off topic.



Ok just a few points -



a) Yeah I agree with that - I assume the Ark travelled normally through the void and this was when Aurax/Aurang? could blot out Earwa with their thumb.



B) Doesnt make sense I agree.



c) A binary system does not make physical sense, nor do I think its just a close star.



d) Sorry I meant Geostationary and not Geosynchronous. I actually understand Orbital Mechanics fairly well and disagree to some extent. You need to take other factors into account - namely light pressure. Materials now do not have the properties but we already know the Ark is made of something that did not even scratch when crashing from the skies. We can also assume some measure of its own power when it crashed otherwise the acceleration due to gravity on an object so large would have caused an ELE.



I can see problems with a Nonman definition of a Newborn star - what is young to something so old? Do we know how old some of the Nonment were prior to the First Apocalypse?



I think the Nail could be a wormhole opening to the Outside. When Inri ascended maybe he actually became an agency in the Outside, maybe Moe Sr did the same with the Cishaurim and Kell will do so to a much greater extent as AE. We already know he has been to the Outside so maybe he is planning a metaphysical war on Heaven/Hell.



So many questions!



Thanks for your post.


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That was why I started a new thread - saw the last one go off topic.

Ok just a few points -

a) Yeah I agree with that - I assume the Ark travelled normally through the void and this was when Aurax/Aurang? could blot out Earwa with their thumb.

B) Doesnt make sense I agree.

c) A binary system does not make physical sense, nor do I think its just a close star.

d) Sorry I meant Geostationary and not Geosynchronous. I actually understand Orbital Mechanics fairly well and disagree to some extent. You need to take other factors into account - namely light pressure. Materials now do not have the properties but we already know the Ark is made of something that did not even scratch when crashing from the skies. We can also assume some measure of its own power when it crashed otherwise the acceleration due to gravity on an object so large would have caused an ELE.

I can see problems with a Nonman definition of a Newborn star - what is young to something so old? Do we know how old some of the Nonment were prior to the First Apocalypse?

I think the Nail could be a wormhole opening to the Outside. When Inri ascended maybe he actually became an agency in the Outside, maybe Moe Sr did the same with the Cishaurim and Kell will do so to a much greater extent as AE. We already know he has been to the Outside so maybe he is planning a metaphysical war on Heaven/Hell.

So many questions!

Thanks for your post.

If the Nail of Heaven was a second ship, and Earwa has the metaphysical significance that Inchoroi believe it has, there would be little reason for the remaining ship to sit patiently for thousands of years when their sudden appearance (or a summon from Sil) could lead to the fulfilment of all their plans. I do like it as a plot twist.

I prefer to think of the Nail of Heaven not in sci-fi but mythological terms. Would be disappointed if Kellhus repairs the ark and takes off via the wormhole to conquer the Inchoroi Home World.

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Would be disappointed if Kellhus repairs the ark and takes off via the wormhole to conquer the Inchoroi Home World.

You would? Why? I would love it tbh.

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You would? Why? I would love it tbh.

Just personal preference. The ruins/myths of the past captivate more than the dreams of the future. Plus in a work so rife with metaphysics and theology, it would feel a bit flat no? We are expecting Kellhus to become the God of Gods and instead he becomes have spaceship, will travel.

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Should I ask the mods to move this to the other thread btw? It's kinda weird to have to go back and forth between two Bakker threads. Especially when both are numbered consecutively.


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You would? Why? I would love it tbh.

Just personal preference. The ruins/myths of the past captivate more than the dreams of the future. Plus in a work so rife with metaphysics and theology, it would feel a bit flat no? We are expecting Kellhus to become the God of Gods and instead he becomes have spaceship, will travel.

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Interesting thoughts:



Gaston - on reflection I think a second Inchie ship would indeed have landed - we can assume correspondence of cause because of the IF. It makes me wonder if the Ark is all the Inchoroi in existence, if there are other Arks, or other Inchies left at other Grounds - was Sil the king of all Inchies everywhere or just the Ark.



The Great Ruiner - I am happy for the thread to stay here, the other thread was pretty derailed!



Anyone think of a reason why Sil has a logo similar to the Cosmological Constant on his shield? Omega Lambda much?



I personally enjoy the Sci-Fi element in the story - especially as it is steeped in mystic lore (non sorcerous weapons of light) so I wouldnt mind if the Nail was either a portal to the howeworld, another Ark, an orbital relay station or just the door to heaven. I think we are likely to get a curveball from Bakker.



Thanks for all your thoughts.

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A ship might have landed if it could. But it could be an unlandandable intragalactic cruiser that can't land and is empty of Inchoroi.

I agree in principle that you can have a satellite stationary above the North Pole but you would need thrust and a computer or intelligence to keep it there for thousands if years, which seems not credible here.

It does occur to me that if Earwa rotates along its orbital curve (perpendicular to solar north) then the Nail could be an object in a Trojan orbit with Earwa.

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I assumed because of the Inverse Fire.

I'd think it was the No-God, who they apparently plan on serving?

Plus their plan offers them salvation from Hell, and presumably every sentient that lives will also benefit from this once the Outside is shut away.

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Ok just a few other things I am interested in hearing peoples opinions on?



Shae/Aurang relationship?


I always thought the relationship with Shae and Aurang in The False Sun was interesting. I expected Shae to fear the Inchoroi but the way it read seemed as if the Inchoroi was feigning subservience but you could see it had no regard for Shaes authority in the end. From some of Shae's PoV I thought he was probably getting it from Aurang.



Nature of the No God?


I agree with Sci about Shae referring to the No God specifically when he referencs the Consult. To me the No God sound like a powerful storage device fed to bursting on a load of Souls, an artificially created piece of the Outside stuck on the Ground. That might be why the No God is always asking questions. He has no conception of chronology and cannot fathom temporal phenomena.



Nature of the Inverse Fire?


Ok so the IF shows your own damnation and seemingly makes you crazy as sin. Has anyone seen it and not gone basically evil? If the IF shows you your own damnation then hasnt Kellhus already seen this? He's been to the Outside and killed Ciphrang and I thought your Soul went to whichever Ciphrang noticed you (if indeed the Hundred are Ciphrang?) Also has ayone looked into the IF and not seen damnation? Like some nice chilled out kind of guy or girl who isnt a murderer/sorcerer/rapist.



Have we seen Aurax yet? Was he the guy in TDTCB that gave Esmi a Black Pearl soaking?


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Ok just a few other things I am interested in hearing peoples opinions on?

Shae/Aurang relationship?

I always thought the relationship with Shae and Aurang in The False Sun was interesting. I expected Shae to fear the Inchoroi but the way it read seemed as if the Inchoroi was feigning subservience but you could see it had no regard for Shaes authority in the end. From some of Shae's PoV I thought he was probably getting it from Aurang.

Nature of the No God?

I agree with Sci about Shae referring to the No God specifically when he referencs the Consult. To me the No God sound like a powerful storage device fed to bursting on a load of Souls, an artificially created piece of the Outside stuck on the Ground. That might be why the No God is always asking questions. He has no conception of chronology and cannot fathom temporal phenomena.

Nature of the Inverse Fire?

Ok so the IF shows your own damnation and seemingly makes you crazy as sin. Has anyone seen it and not gone basically evil? If the IF shows you your own damnation then hasnt Kellhus already seen this? He's been to the Outside and killed Ciphrang and I thought your Soul went to whichever Ciphrang noticed you (if indeed the Hundred are Ciphrang?) Also has ayone looked into the IF and not seen damnation? Like some nice chilled out kind of guy or girl who isnt a murderer/sorcerer/rapist.

Have we seen Aurax yet? Was he the guy in TDTCB that gave Esmi a Black Pearl soaking?

As to your last, it has been speculated that the epilogue of the Warrior Prophet features Aurax asking the question "who are the Dunyain". I asked this question myself.

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