Howland Reed = High Septon?

[Antarctica]

The idea that Wylla is Scolera is fascinating.

From what we know about the "Wylla" that Edric Dayne describes, she is Dornish and a Wet-Nurse.

Dornish, specifically the Salty Dornish, have "olive skin". The only other time we see the phrase "olive skin" is in our description of Scolera. Safe to assume that this septa is Dornish, and the stink of "milk on the verge of going bad" is the indication of her being a Wet-Nurse

But here's what I'm trying to figure out: What is a Dornish Wet-Nurse doing with a Northern-sounding name?

By Northern-sounding, I mean that the only other person in the story named "Wylla" is a northerner, and the other names in her family suggests that her "Wylla" is a phonetically established name carried by the North:

-Wylla

-Wyman

-Wylis

-Wynafryd

-Wendel

Of course, the counter to this is that there are other characters with "Wy" sounding names, specifically certain characters from the south, like the members of House House Webber:

-Wyman

-Wendel

or from House Whent:

-Wynafrei

But, as we must note, these Houses have been largely extinguished, and they have no claim to the lands which were once theirs. Much unlike the surviving House of the Manderlys.

What might this all mean?

That Wylla, the Wet-Nurse, is Lyra Mormont. Is there phonetic precendence to support this? Sure, it's called Rhotacism

In english. a common case of rhotic pronunciation is replacing "L" with "W". This is a phenomenan seen mostly in CHILDREN.

Another common case of rhotic pronunciation, in the English language, is replacing of "R" with "L". Also seen mostly in CHILDREN.

These cases are not W replacing L or L replacing R, but L replacing W and R replacing L. This is very, VERY, important to remember.

If you apply these rhotic pronunciations to Lyra (replacing the L with W, and R with L) you get Wylla.

Wylla is a Wet-Nurse. As rhotacism shows us, children would most likely pronounce "Lyra" as "Wylla". If any of you have a child around, who is just learning to speak, ask them to say "Lyra". The result may thoroughly surprise you ;)

And adopting a name that is constantly said around you is absolutely NOT far-fetched. Just look at "Hodor".

I suppose the biggest question is, "How and why did Lyra become the Wet-Nurse for House Dayne?"

But, since we don't know anything about "Lyra" we can't definitively say what she's been doing up till now. Therefore, it's possible that she is the Wylla we've heard of.

It wouldn't just justify her sour-milk smell, but her stound and broad appearance.

Lyra is younger than Alysane, who is mid-20s.

If she is Wylla, then she was a 10-year-old wetnurse.

[Ser Duncan the Small]

This is probably the most fascinating thread I've read. Aside from the obvious theories like R+L=J and Coldhands and fAegon, This is not one I ever even thought of till read about it and it actually has a feel of truth to it. Its just under enough clues for it to be full fledged like the others. I think GRRM could cook something like this up, frankly I hope it is true and it's part of the Prophecy of Maggy, where HR eventually takes the city and kills Tommen & Myrcella when she arrives. Very well thought out theory, not without its holes but if it was obvious either way it wouldn't need be discussed

[pobeb]

Lyra is younger than Alysane, who is mid-20s.

If she is Wylla, then she was a 10-year-old wetnurse.

Lyra being younger than Alysane is an assumption, not a fact.

You're gathering this because Asha claims that Alysane is the heir to Bear Island. This is a logical deduction, so I can't knock you for believing this.

However, doesn't it make perfect sense for Alysane to be heir, regardless of age? She's the oldest Mormont currently in the North, there's no garuantee her mother or sisters will ever return from the south, and, in fact, isn't it better for Howland and his Co. if the rest of Westros assumes the 3 missing She-Bears are dead?

I mean, COME ON, those septas ARE DEFINITELY the missing She-Bears, and they're all described as being older.

All those similarities between the She-Bears and those specific Septas is glaring. I've posted several detailed analysis for the septas, the she-bears, and the carvings on Mormont Keep. You're telling me all of that evidence is purely coincidental? :rolleyes:

Alysane being heir actually strengthens the idea that Maege, Jorelle, and Lyra are up to something that is supposed to be a secret.

[Eggshell Joe]

Lyra is younger than Alysane, who is mid-20s.

If she is Wylla, then she was a 10-year-old wetnurse.

Torghen Flint brought a 14 year-old wetnurse to the wall for Monster.

[pobeb]

Torghen Flint brought a 14 year-old wetnurse to the wall for Monster.

Exactly.

And besides, there isn't any room to argue that Alysane's sisters are younger. Cersei describes the Septas, Alysane's sisters and mother, as being older than herself.

The fact that Alysane is heir, which is where Antartica is basing his claim, doesn't debunk idea of the She-Bear Septas, it strengthens it.

[Eggshell Joe]

Exactly.

And besides, there isn't any room to argue that Alysane's sisters are younger. Cersei describes the Septas, Alysane's sisters and mother, as being older than herself.

The fact that Alysane is heir, which is where Antartica is basing his claim, doesn't debunk idea of the She-Bear Septas, it strengthens it.

For the record, I think Tormund is their father. Husband to Bears. Banged a she-bear. Mead King of Ruddy Hall alludes to Howland or Bloodraven (who have a ton in common btw) and Speaker to Gods, which ties back to Howland/HS. Would explain why we don't know fathered Maeges kids and why they kept the Mormont name.

No need to tell me this needs more citation, I know it does, just wanted to throw it out there.

[Antarctica]

Lyra being younger than Alysane is an assumption, not a fact.

She's listed after Alysane in the appendix, and siblings are listed by age.

However, doesn't it make perfect sense for Alysane to be heir, regardless of age? She's the oldest Mormont currently in the North, there's no garuantee her mother or sisters will ever return from the south, and, in fact, isn't it better for Howland and his Co. if the rest of Westros assumes the 3 missing She-Bears are dead?

No, it doesn't make "perfect sense" for the heir to change just because one is not in the north. Using that logic, shouldn't Lyanna be the heir since she is the oldest She-Bear on Bear Island and Alysane could easily die at Winterfell? And no one is assuming the 3 missing She-Bears are dead - Alysane says that Dacey died at the Red Wedding and the rest are with her mother. If she was part of some scheme to make everyone think they were dead, she would tell people the were dead.

Torghen Flint brought a 14 year-old wetnurse to the wall for Monster.

Right, because some 14-year-old girls have finished puberty. Did Lyra start puberty at 6? And what would a post-pubescent 10-year-old She-Bear be doing in Starfall?

And besides, there isn't really much room to argue if Alysane's sisters are older. Cersei describes the Septas, Alysane's sisters and mother, as being older than herself.

Then maybe you have to think that there is a tiny chance that they aren't the missing She-Bears. I know you're sure of your theory, but why would we have been misled about Lyra's age? It just doesn't make since for GRRM to mislead everyone in the books and in the Appendix.

[kiasyd]

I think that Wylla being a dornish wet-nurse works better than being a Mormont, mainly due to the olive skin and different behaviour from the other septas.

Also, Wylla was wet-nurse for Edric Dayne and supposedly, served in Starfall for quite some time. Coincidentally, Edric Storm is nicknamed "Ned" and is nephew to a Allyria Dayne. :dunno:

[pobeb]

Then maybe you have to think that there is a tiny chance that they aren't the missing She-Bears. I know you're sure of your theory, but why would we have been misled about Lyra's age? It just doesn't make since for GRRM to mislead everyone in the books and in the Appendix.

Since when have the Appendices ever been intended to be taken as gospel?

It also says Jon is Ned's bastard son, and that Joff, Tommen, and Myrcella are Robert's children.

Trust me when I tell you, those septas are She-Bears. All of them.

And the applications of rhotic pronunciation imply that Lyra is indeed Wylla. Truly, try to find a child learning to speak, and try to get them to say "lyra". You will, undoubtedly, hear something akin to "wylla". These tendencies are proven in behavioral and developmental science. They are tendencies held mainly by children, and Wylla is a wetnurse. The whole reason we're told that "Hodor" is actually a Walder, but changed his name to Hodor because he has the mind of a child and simply adopted his namesake through repitition is HUGE key to this puzzle.

She was Lyra, all the children she nursed called her "Wylla", and thus the confusion.

[pobeb]

I think that Wylla being a dornish wet-nurse works better than being a Mormont

It does, you're right. But I simply can't ignore the implications for rhotic pronunciation. Especially since it's prevalent in children, and "Wylla" is a wetnurse. If the 3 missing She-Bears were Maege, Jorelle, and Alysane, I wouldn't have anything to base this off. But it's not Alysane missing; it's specifically Lyra who is missing. Lyra, from a child's mouth, would sound like Wylla. And he's called Hodor, not Walder, because he's a child who established his current namesake through repitition; just as would be the case with the children and Lyra.

I even provided evidence that the name "Wylla" is probably from the North as we see in the phonetic similarities within House Manderly.

[Antarctica]

Since when have the Appendices ever been intended to be taken as gospel?

It also says Jon is Ned's bastard son, and that Joff, Tommen, and Myrcella are Robert's children.

Trust me when I tell you, those septas are She-Bears. All of them.

And the applications of rhotic pronunciation imply that Lyra is indeed Wylla. Truly, try to find a child learning to speak, and try to get them to say "lyra". You will, undoubtedly, hear something akin to "wylla". These tendencies are proven in behavioral and developmental science. They are tendencies held mainly by children, and Wylla is a wetnurse. The whole reason we're told that "Hodor" is actually a Walder, but changed his name to Hodor because he has the mind of a child and simply adopted his namesake through repitition is HUGE key to this puzzle.

She was Lyra, all the children she nursed called her "Wylla", and thus the confusion.

So you think the Appendix is purposefully lying about Lyra's age? Everyone understands why Jon is listed as Ned's bastard and Joff, Tomm, and Myr are listed where they are. Those are major plot points. Lyra Mormont being Alysane Mormont's older sister instead of her younger sister is not the same. There's no reason to list it that way unless GRRM plans some grand reveal that one character no one cares about is in fact older than we thought she was, and the story was dependent on it.

[Eggshell Joe]

Right, because some 14-year-old girls have finished puberty. Did Lyra start puberty at 6? And what would a post-pubescent 10-year-old She-Bear be doing in Starfall?

I'm just trying to see if it's possible, which I think it is, however unlikely. If Alysane is was born in 275 and she is in fact older than Lyra, Lyra could have been born in 275 (Irish cousins) or 276, to be at her oldest when Jon is born in 283.

Agreed that's still a super young wet nurse but not impossible.

Also it is very strange that a Mormont teen or pre-teen would be in Dorne/Starfall at all, but I think we should hold off judgment on that particular question for a bit, and here's why..

Bran Vras did an interesting study on the dor/tor/jor/mor name prefixes at one point and I’ll have to dig that up. But a guy like Tormund and his connection to bears reminds me of the Torentine which flows into Starfall.

House Blackmont is between the two Dayne houses and we still don’t know why the Daynes, as the house furthest to the south would be holders of the sword supposedly used to fight the Others in the north.

There are connections and I think we are getting there, we just don’t have it all figured out yet.

[pobeb]

So you think the Appendix is purposefully lying about Lyra's age? Everyone understands why Jon is listed as Ned's bastard and Joff, Tomm, and Myr are listed where they are. Those are major plot points. Lyra Mormont being Alysane Mormont's older sister instead of her younger sister is not the same. There's no reason to list it that way unless GRRM plans some grand reveal that one character no one cares about is in fact older than we thought she was, and the story was dependent on it.

No reason? You admit that theres precedent for a twist in the Appendices when there's a secret hidden, but apparently it's only when those secrets are ones you believe in.

Which is why we're not going to go anywhere with this argument. If you don't believe Howland = High Septon, obviously the idea that GRRM deliberately muddled the She-Bears ages, in an area of the book that has a precedent for being false, is going to go completely over your head.

You can't deny the Septa/She-Bear similarities I drew up. You simply can't; I've made sure of it by the extensive and thorough analysis I gave in this regard. If the Septas are the She-Bears (and they are) then the instance in the Appendices is just like all the other instances where it's stated something as fact when it wasn't. It says, in every Appendix of every book, that Joff, Myrcella, and Tommen are Baratheons - despite the fact that Cersei and Jaime have already admitted the truth.

I'm willing to address whatever other arguments you can come up with (as I appreciate that you have constantly argued from different angles), but the appendix argument is terrible. Please, you have to realize this now.

[Eggshell Joe]

I think we should work off the premise that the appendix is mostly correct, at least for order of birth. I still think the math works out with Wylla, Lyra and with the age argument against Howland/HS. But we should also all agreed that without knowing months and years and basing ages on appearances and 'of an age' with other characters, it needs to be a flexible estimation system.

[Antarctica]

No reason? You admit that theres precedent for a twist in the Appendices when there's a secret hidden, but apparently it's only when those secrets are ones you believe in.

Which is why we're not going to go anywhere with this argument. If you don't believe Howland = High Septon, obviously the idea that GRRM deliberately muddled the She-Bears ages, in an area of the book that has a precedent for being false, is going to go completely over your head.

You can't deny the Septa/She-Bear similarities I drew up. You simply can't; I've made sure of it by the extensive and thorough analysis I gave in this regard. If the Septas are the She-Bears (and they are) then the instance in the Appendices is just like all the other instances where it's stated something as fact when it wasn't. It says, in every Appendix of every book, that Joff, Myrcella, and Tommen are Baratheons - despite the fact that Cersei and Jaime have already admitted the truth.

I'm willing to address whatever other arguments you can come up with (as I appreciate that you have constantly argued from different angles), but the appendix argument is terrible. Please, you have to realize this now.

What purpose does this trick reguarding Lyra's age serve? Why not just tell us her true age? She's a minor character, and has only been mentioned once or twice in the entire series. There's no reason to list her after Alysane as some kind of misdirection. It's not going to suddenly be obvious that the septas are she-bears, or that Lyra is Wylla if we know that she is older than Alysane.

[pobeb]

I think we should work off the premise that the appendix is mostly correct, at least for order of birth. I still think the math works out with Wylla, Lyra and with the age argument against Howland/HS. But we should also all agreed that without knowing months and years and basing ages on appearances and 'of an age' with other characters, it needs to be a flexible estimation system.

What purpose does this trick reguarding Lyra's age serve? Why not just tell us her true age? She's a minor character, and has only been mentioned once or twice in the entire series. There's no reason to list her after Alysane as some kind of misdirection. It's not going to suddenly be obvious that the septas are she-bears, or that Lyra is Wylla if we know that she is older than Alysane.

Neither of you find it suspicious that we're given absolutely no descriptive info on Jorelle or Lyra during Robb's entire campaign?

Speaking of which, Alysane, Jorelle, Lyra, and Lyanna don't even show up in the Appendices until book 4. And when they do, they're lumped together thusly:

—MAEGE MORMONT, Lady of Bear Island,

—{DACEY}, her eldest daughter and heir, slain at the Red Wedding,

—ALYSANE, LYRA, JORELLE, LYANNA, her daughters

We find them again in the book 5 Appendices listed like this:

—MAEGE MORMONT, Lady of Bear Island, the She-Bear,

—{DACEY}, her eldest daughter, slain at the Red Wedding,

—ALYSANE, her daughter, the young She-Bear

—LYRA, JORELLE, LYANNA, her younger daughters

Not until the last book are we finally given a more detailed look at the distinction in age... which is in the Appendices, a place where I've clearly established, several times, has precedent for faulty information.

Jon is Ned's Bastard

Joff is Robert's son

Alleras is just a Sphinx

Lady Stonehart isn't Catelyn, but "the hooded woman"

and my personal favorite:

—THE HIGH SEPTON, Father of the Faithful, Voice of the Seven on Earth, an old man and frail

Jon is not Ned's Bastard

Joff is not Roberts son

Alleras is Sarella

Stonehart is Catelyn

The High Septon is Howland

If we can admit that the Appendices are flawed in some ways, why is it that they can't be flawed in other ways?

Wouldn't it stand to serve that Maege took her eldest daughters into battle? Yet she leaves Alysane behind?

Where is the precedent for this? The north heads into battle, leaving behind both the old, the young, and the disabled. Which is why there aren't many to stand against the Boltons when they take the North by force.

When Stannis asks Theon about the Umber forces outside of Winterfell, Theon tells him it's a gaggle of old men and green boys.

I can't even believe we need to discuss their age. The septas' appearances are proof enough.

[pobeb]

I know this probably doesn't belong here, but I can't help it...

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!THEY JUST ANNOUNCED THAT JONATHAN PRYCE IS THE HIGH SEPTON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Pretty high-profile actor for a character perceived to be relatively unimportant ;)

Thank you Comi-Con! Couldn't have come at a better time!

[Eggshell Joe]

Neither of you find it suspicious that we're given absolutely no descriptive info on Jorelle or Lyra during Robb's entire campaign?

Sure, it's suspicious, just not worth getting all riled up about. I agree with you that Wylla is Lyra, just not because of a technicality in the appendix, I think it works out as written.

[JonSnow4President]

Is it sad my first reaction when I googled that to see who that is was "woah, they're bringing Maester Luwin back."

Now that I've looked at it, they're clearly different though...

[Antarctica]

Neither of you find it suspicious that we're given absolutely no descriptive info on Jorelle or Lyra during Robb's entire campaign?

Speaking of which, Alysane, Jorelle, Lyra, and Lyanna don't even show up in the Appendices until book 4. And when they do, they're lumped together thusly:

We find them again in the book 5 Appendices listed like this:

Not until the last book are we finally given a more detailed look at the distinction in age... which is in the Appendices, a place where I've clearly established, several times, has precedent for faulty information.

Jon is Ned's Bastard

Joff is Robert's son

Alleras is just a Sphinx

Lady Stonehart isn't Catelyn, but "the hooded woman"

and my personal favorite:

—THE HIGH SEPTON, Father of the Faithful, Voice of the Seven on Earth, an old man and frail

Jon is not Ned's Bastard

Joff is not Roberts son

Alleras is Sarella

Stonehart is Catelyn

The High Septon is Howland

If we can admit that the Appendices are flawed in some ways, why is it that they can't be flawed in other ways?

I'm not even sure what you're suggesting at this point. Is it a typo, or is it a purposeful misdirection?

If it's a purposeful misdirection, then why? That's what I'm wanting to be convinced of. Why is GRRM trying to trick us into thinking that Lyra is younger than Alysane? She's a minor character, and knowing her true age would change nothing about the story. It's not going to suddenly be obvious that the septon's are she-bears, or that she was Wylla. It serves no purpose.

All of the examples you've given are of what people are known as in the story. We all know that Tommen isn't Robert's son, but in the story, he is Tommen Baratheon, first of his name, King of the Andals, etc. Jon is Ned's bastard. Alleras is just a Sphinx. Lady Stoneheart is a hooded woman.

If Lyra is listed as Alysane's younger sister, then that's what she's known as in Westeros. Why are the Mormont's lying about her being younger than Alysane?

Wouldn't it stand to serve that Maege took her eldest daughters into battle? Yet she leaves Alysane behind?

Where is the precedent for this? The north heads into battle, leaving behind both the old, the young, and the disabled. Which is why there aren't many to stand against the Boltons when they take the North by force.

Because Alysane had just given birth.