Howland Reed = High Septon?

[three-eyed monkey]

The appendix of ADWD lists him

I don't think Howland Reed is the HS, and this is purely from the storytelling side of things, it would just be way too contrived.

Cersei killed the previous High Septon opening up the position, and the High Sparrow appears soon after, so for it to be HR, he would have already had to have been working on his plan.

Cersei agreed to rearm the faith, a decision that even shocked Jaime, so Howland Reed couldn't really have anticipated it.

Cersei sent him Osney who confessed to everything, and before that, all his evidence was basically that a lot of people think her kids were born of incest.

Cersei returned the second time because she decided to visit the queen that she framed. He didn't ask her to come back, she just went to see Margaery.

So even if somehow Howland Reed is the luckiest person in the world, all that just to give Cersei a trial by combat? What happens if she wins?

And with all that being said, the High Sparrow actually helped out the Lannisters since Cersei was doing such a terrible job of ruling. Did he luck out again when Varys killed Kevan?

The only thing the High Sparrow appears to be trying to achieve is to return the faith to what it should be. Everything else that has happened is a result of other characters' actions.

If the sequence of events is contrived, then it is contrived regardless of whether HS = HR or not. Cersei has foolishly played into the HS's hands either way. And I disagree that he helped out the Lannisters, or indeed the crown, in any way.

For a debt of a little under a million dragons and the promise to bless Tommen, just look what he's gained. Not only has he had the Faith legally rearmed, it seems to me that he has overturned the laws imposed by Jaehaerys the Conciliator after the Faith Militant Uprising, and that has handed the Faith the right to conduct trials, even over the crown. Pycelle did try to warn her but she was too arrogant as well as ignorant of her history and the implications of what she was doing. Jaehaerys' work, the very reason he is remembered to history as the Conciliator, has just been ripped up and now the crown is overlooked by the Faith, and always will be until reconciliation is reached or the Faith Militant is crushed. It's just a bad move all around for Cersei, Tommen, and whoever sits on the IT after him. Even if Cersei wins her trial, the only way she could regain what she gave away is to renegotiate, not her strong point and the sparrow may not be for yielding, or go to war with the Faith.

And remember, the Faith rose against the Crown in the first place because they thought King Aenys I was born of sinful incest. Any current Kings guilty of that sin?

Now that's a pretty big power play for the HS, regardless of his identity. So was this guy just a charismatic wandering Septon who went to KL to protest about the sacking of septs and just ended up being swept through the doors of the High Sept to become top dog and just so happen to undo the bonds that have shackled the Faith for the last 200 years? Now that would be luck.

Or did the HS, regardless of his identity, go to KL with an agenda? I think he probably did. The previous High Septon was an old man, and he wasn't cutting it as far as the faithful were concerned. He was going to have to be removed or else they would just have to wait around and pray for him to die. But Cersei got there first. The problem is the usual suspects in the higher echelons of the church were circling for their turn in the crystal crown and that would probably mean more of the same. So the top candidate was targeted for shaming, and when the next guy was almost across the line the High Sparrow just stormed the conclave. This has all the signs of an organised coup, regardless of the HS's identity, and Cersei gave them the keys to the kingdom.

But if everything falling into place to fit HR's agenda is contrived, then it must be contrived for it to fit a genuine HS's agenda too. So the only way it's not contrived is if the HS didn't have an agenda and just got lucky? But considering the play he made, that would just feel a bit too serendipitous to me. Now Cersei's actions certainly helped out when first she had the HS killed, but once she sent Kettleblack to confess to bedding Marg, which she was going to do regardless of who the new HS was, then the sparrow took control. He didn't need to ask her to the Sept as he knew she would have to come sooner or later, he only needed to wait.

ETA: Now just for a moment imagine that HS=HR. What can one man do against the crown? They are the power in the land. Their enemies are sending whole armies against them, what can he do? He can't judge the king, no one can. No one has in 200 years. If only the faith would rise again and hold the throne to account for its sins, but despite the feelings of the faithful, gods fearing, smallfolk, that's not going to happen because the crown have the High Septon in their pocket. So what can a small man who fights by deceptive means and snares with a net do? How can he cast a shadow so big that it falls over the Iron Throne?

[Ulthosian Stark]

I agree, that was what I was trying to get across in my post as well

[pobeb]

This reminds me of Sansa (another mother figure like Catelyn) who prays the Mother's prayer during Blackwater battle and then sings a prayer to Sandor ( a very angry wounded warrior). She prays that the Mother will still his anger and heal him.

What I find interesting is that Sansa later adds a kiss in her mind to this whole scene. Yet there was no kiss exchanged between Sansa and Sandor..JUST a prayer that is like a kiss from the Mother.

.

Brilliant observation. I never noticed Sansa re-imagining the scene with a kiss. What an excellent tie-in!

On another note, three eyed monkey, excellent defense for the pro.

I think that the implications of these various pieces moving in the subtext, all with the intention of crowning jon, is one of the most elaborate and masterfully crafted displays of creative writing, ever.

I mean, the warrior's (rhaegar) sons (jon) symbol being lightbringer is a stroke of sheer genius. Howland carrying jon's banner (lightbringer) into battle in cersei's 7v3 trial is a parallel of when he donned robert's banner (stag) into the ToJ battle. Both times he flew the banner of the future king. And if that theory is right, and GRRM has already given us the foreshadowing, how could you ever call it contrite? It's literary brilliance. It's why ASoIaF is the greatest fantasy epic of our time, possibly (dare i say) all time.

Moving forward:

I've seen people dismiss the significance of the sparrows favoring axes.

Well, if you can believe that some Mormonts are posing as the septas, then i ask you to consider this: The axe-men are the Glovers.

1) Deepwood Motte... has there ever been a House more beset by trees? Doesn't it stand to reason that they'd favor axes? I'm limited to my phone currently, so I can't cite from the text; anyone able to find reference of Glovers and axes?

2) The big, shirtless, axe-wielding, no-shits-given-about-the-cold, sparrow - who has a seemingly unreasonable disdain for Duskendale. Robett Glover was betrayed into losing a third of Robb's foot soldiers at Duskendale, and then held captive there. You have to figure that Galbart, or any Glover for that matter, would be pretty damn sore about anything Duskendale related.

3) The Glovers are basically the equivelent of a lumberjack - big, hairy, northmen, who even make a big wooden fort akin to a log cabin (a lumberjack's home)

Then, these axe-favoring sparrows become members of the Faith Militant, and Cersei notes how under their new outfits, they still wear shirts of hair.

[three-eyed monkey]

Okay, that helped me find the quote, including the reference to a lined face:

"He was still a scrawny grey-haired man, with a lean, hard, half-starved look, his face sharp-featured, lined, his eyes suspicious"

Thanks again, HOBOJED. So to complete the description given in the books the HS is small, thin as a reed, half-starved, sharp facial features, lined (though not necessarily heavily-lined), eyes brown as mud, thinning grey hair tied back in a knot, a grey brown beard, and hard calloused feet.

Personally, I think that could put him around the 50 mark, the brown in his beard indicating that he is not a very old man. But yeah, POBEB is right. This is a circular argument and we're back to speculating on how old HR was at the tourney in Harrenhal and how fast his ageing process may or may not be, etc., and I'm happy to explore a lot of the other evidence until we have something more definitive on HR's age.

[Lady Arya's Song]

The 3 novices who attend Cersei and Tommen.

GRRM states each girl spends no more than 7 days in the queen's service. Three novices " each seemed more innocent and unworldly than the last. (Perhaps a hint to look at each girl closely and especially the last girl introduced.

1. A tall stork of a girl with pockmarked face escorted Kevin into Cersei's solar.

2. A freckled novice served them hot spiced wine.

3. A dark hairy novice with round cheeks.

The third girl is the most innocent and unworldly according to Martin. I think this third novice is the younger daughter of the two daughters that are with Maege M.

It is after this third girl brings a message to Kevin that Pycelle needs to speak to him that Kevin thinks "dark wings dark words and he thinks about Boltons and the north.) A hint perhaps that this third girl is of the north.

All can hear Cersei's conversation with Kevan. We are not given a description of the Septon who is also with these three novices. I would guess they (novices) report back to the High Sparrow anything said by Cersei.

[pobeb]

Ah, it feels good to have a computer back, if only momentarily. (I'll be back up to speed once timewarner cable gets up off their asses and simply flips the damned switch outside of my new apartment /endrant)

Lady Arya's Song, yet another fascinating observation. I'd like to add this:

One shared the queen’s bed every night, to ascertain she had no other company; the other two slept in an adjoining chamber with the septa who looked over them.

Or, in other words, "the other two (Lyra and Jorelle) slept in an adjoining chamber with the septa (Maege) who looked over them (as a mother would)."

Thank you for drawing my attention to this scene, because it had some other supporting lines which proved that the High Septon has thoroughly pwned Cersei:

Ser Kevan could not remember ever seeing his niece so quiet, so subdued, so demure. All for the good, he supposed. But it made him sad as well. Her fire is quenched, she who used to burn so bright.

Howla... I mean, the "High Septon" has destroyed Cersei mentally and spiritually. Now, he just needs to destroy her physically, thus the Trial of Joy - pitting the odds against her in a lopsided 7v3 trial, to help ensure her doom.

[Watcher_inthe_Woods]

Chronic lurker here...I don't have anything to add....just wanted to say how much I've enjoyed reading this topic. Very thoughtful and the pro arguments laid out nicely :)

[forestchilde]

I noticed the HS twice using the line: " the sparrow is the humblest and most common of birds", once when Brienne meets him on his way to KL (AFFC Brienne 1) and again when he and Cersei meet for the first time (AFFC Cersei 6). We know GRRM uses many fantasy and mythological tropes throughout his work; the heresy threads point out dozens of them (I love Jon Snow as the Corn King), and the author is steeped in that tradition. This repetition of a phrase, and the use of sparrows, seemed to be pointing to something....

So I did a search on sparrows in mythology. One of the first hits is a Wikipedia article on psychpomps. For those who don't know, a psychopomp is a creature, perhaps animal, perhaps "human-like", that escorts the recent dead to the underwold. The appearance of a psychopomp is a harbinger of death in that vicinity. And sparrows are often represented as psychopomps. Anyone that's read Stephen King's The Dark Half has heard all this.

We have our own psychopomp in The Grim Reaper. Other cultures have them too: In Welsh mythology it's called the Ankou who "is said to drive a cart and stops at a house where someone is about to die." The Celtic tradition has the dullahan.

The dullahan uses the spine of a human corpse for a whip, and their wagon is adorned with funereal objects (e.g. candles in skulls to light the way, the spokes of the wheels are made from thigh bones, the wagon's covering made from a worm-chewed pall) or dried human skin. When the dullahan stops riding, that is where a person is due to die. The dullahan calls out their name, at which point they immediately perish.

There is no way to bar the road against a dullahan – all locks and gates open to them when they approach.

(From the wikipedia article on pychopomps, my emphasis)

Humble birds indeed. Humble can be both the opposite of proud, or being from a humble background. I think the HS could mean the latter (i.e., it's a clue to where he's from), and I think the sparrows are in KL to escort someone (*cough, Cersei, cough*) to where she belongs.

[pobeb]

^ hey, that's really interesting! I knew there was some significance there, nice find!

[DerriicStarKatheon]

I just read this theory on Reddit by user rodesiderose and thought it had to be posted here. What does everyone think?

This is one of my super crackpot theories. When I thought of this I laughed for a while. Then I thought I should pen it down. If you expect a fool-proof theory stop reading right now.

In the books, we have met three High Septons so far. The first was killed in a riot (ACOK). The second High Septon was smothered in his sleep (AFFC). And since then, there has been a new High Septon in Kings Landing.

Election

There is little we know of the current High Septon. The person who occupies the position of the High Septon is usually elected. However this High Septon seems to have got the position without any formal election process, just with the support of the sparrows.

Qyburn’s whisperers claimed that Septon Luceon had been nine votes from elevation when those doors had given way, and the sparrows came pouring into the Great Sept with their leader on their shoulders and their axes in their hands.

Anointing the King

When Aegon the Conqueror first came to Westeros, the High Septon locked himself within the Starry Sept of Oldtown and prayed for seven days and seven nights. When he emerged from prayer, he anointed Aegon as the true King in Oldtown. This tradition of anointing the King by the High Septon was carried on since the days of Aegon the Conqueror. However, the new High Septon has not performed the ritual of blessing Tommen as the King. Much to Cersei’s discomfort. Even though this is merely a ritual, it is an important event in the eyes of the common people.

“He feeds them, coddles them, blesses them. Yet will not bless the king.” The blessing was an empty ritual, she knew, but rituals and ceremonies had power in the eyes of the ignorant. Aegon the Conqueror himself had dated the start of his realm from the day the High Septon anointed him in Oldtown. (Cersei: AFFC)

When Cersei asks the High Septon on why he failed to bless Tommen as King, he replies that ‘the hour is not yet ripe’.

[Cersei] “..and yet you have refused to bless King Tommen.”

[High Septon] “Your Grace is mistaken. We have not refused.”

[Cersei] “You have not come.”

“[High Septon]The hour is not yet ripe.” (Cersei: AFFC)

Could the High Septon be waiting for the true King?

It has been hard to figure the motivations of this character, who seems to have appeared out of nowhere. Is he working with Varys or another player?

Who is this High Septon?

When Cersei meets the High Septon, she describes him as a short man, thin as a broom handle (reed thin?), with a grey and brown beard that is closely trimmed and his hair tied in a knot. His face was sharply pointed, and his eyes as ‘brown as mud’.

“He is cleaning the floor.” The speaker was shorter than the queen by several inches and as thin as a broom handle. “Work is a form of prayer, most pleasing to the Smith.” He stood, scrub brush in hand. “Your Grace. We have been expecting you.”

The man’s beard was grey and brown and closely trimmed, his hair tied up in a hard knot behind his head. Though his robes were clean, they were frayed and patched as well. He had rolled his sleeves up his elbows as he scrubbed, but below the knees the cloth was soaked and sodden. His face was sharply pointed, with deep-set eyes as brown as mud. His feet are bare, she saw with dismay. They were hideous as well, hard and horny things, thick with callus. “You are His High Holiness?” (Cersei: AFFC)

When Brienne heads to Duskendale from Rosby, she meets a septon who has a similar description to the High Septon. This man asks Brienne and her companions to join the sparrows headed to King’s Landing

The septon had a lean sharp face and a short beard, grizzled grey and brown. His thin hair was pulled back and knotted behind his head, and his feet were bare and black, gnarled and hard as tree roots. (Brienne: AFFC)

The physical description of the High Septon reminds me of crannogmen. When Bran meets Meera and Jojen in Winterfell he notices how the Reeds were short of stature. Meera is short, slim, and has her brown hair knotted behind her.

As the newcomers walked the length of the hall, Bran saw that one was indeed a girl [Meera], though he would never have known it by her dress. She wore lambskin breeches soft with long use, and a sleeveless jerkin armored in bronze scales. Though near Robb’s age, she was slim as a boy, with long brown hair knotted behind her head and only the barest suggestion of breasts.

Her brother was several years younger and bore no weapons. All his garb was green, even to the leather of his boots, and when he came closer Bran saw that his eyes were the color of moss, though his teeth looked as white as anyone else’s. Both Reeds were slight of build, slender as swords and scarcely taller than Bran himself. (Bran: ACOK)

Taena Merryweather tells Cersei that the High Septon was born with filth beneath his fingernails. If he were born in the swampy marshes of the Neck that would not be surprising. Could the High Septon be a crannogman, one we already know?

[Taena] “My lord husband tells me this new one was born with filth beneath his fingernails.” (Cersei: AFFC)

Motives

When the High Septon meets Cersei, she complains about the filth at the Great Sept of Baelor due to the sparrows. Surprisingly, the High Septon tells Cersei that the stains of Ned Stark’s execution could never be cleansed off the Great Sept of Baelor, even if the dirt and grime brought by the sparrows could be washed away.

They are common, we agree on that much. “Have you seen what they have done to Blessed Baelor’s statue? They befoul the plaza with their pigs and goats and night soil.”

“Night soil can be washed away more easily than blood, Your Grace. If the plaza was befouled, it was befouled by the execution that was done here.”

He dares throw Ned Stark in my face? “We all regret that. Joffrey was young, and not as wise as he might have been. Lord Stark should have been beheaded elsewhere, out of respect for Blessed Baelor… but the man was a traitor, let us not forget.”

“King Baelor forgave those who conspired against him.” (Cersei: AFFC)

This High Septon seems to have a strange fondness for Ned Stark, even though Ned Stark kept the Old Gods. Maybe cause he is Ned’s old friend, Howland Reed.

It is strange to see that there has been no sign of Howland Reed so far. The last we know is Robb Stark asking his two messengers (Maege Mormont and Galbert Glover) to deliver a message to Howland Reed, and have Howland send him guides to help his army navigate through the bogs. When Glover asks Robb if Howland would fail him, he replies that the crannongman would never fail him.

Galbart Glover rubbed his mouth. “There are risks. If the crannogmen should fail you…”

“We will be no worse than before. But they will not fail. My father knew the worth of Howland Reed.” (Catelyn: ASOS)

We also know that the message Robb sent to Howland Reed was highly significant. Whether Howland Reed received this letter is something we don’t know for certain. Another letter of interest is the letter Ned Stark wrote before his execution. We don’t know if that letter was intended for Howland Reed either.

When Bran recalls what he had been taught about crannogmen, he remembers that crannogmen never fight in open battles. They are called a cowardly people because they hide from their foes.

He tried to recall all he had been taught of the crannogmen, who dwelt amongst the bogs of the Neck and seldom left their wetlands. They were a poor folk, fishers and frog-hunters who lived in houses of thatch and woven reeds on floating islands hidden in the deeps of the swamp. It was said that they were a cowardly people who fought with poisoned weapons and preferred to hide from foes rather than face them in open battle. And yet Howland Reed had been one of Father’s staunchest companions during the war for King Robert’s crown, before Bran was born. (Bran: ACOK)

I don’t think we will see Howland Reed raise an army of crannogmen, and head to King’s Landing. Nor will we see him in open battle. I think Howland Reed plans to avenge the Starks, and also get to the bottom of what is really happening at King’s Landing. As High Septon, whatever punishment he metes out to Cersei, is one she must accept. (Her ‘walk of shame’ punishment eerily reminiscent of the way her Lord father Tywin Lannister had once stripped his father’s mistress naked, and paraded her across Lannisport.)

By abolishing the law that prevents the Faith Militant from taking up arms, Howland (as High Septon) has a bigger army (The Faith Militant) than the Lannisters do at King’s Landing currently. When Jaime left for the Riverlands, he took the greater part of the Lannister host with him.

“The new High Septon has revived them. He’s sent out a call for worthy knights to pledge their lives and swords to the service of the Seven. The Poor Fellows are to be restored as well.” (Jaime: AFFC)

Howland Reed as High Septon is the most powerful man in King’s Landing right now. And I think he has a few tricks lined up his sleeve while he makes the Lannisters pay their debts, and prepares the way to reveal the true heir of Rhaegar Targaryen.

This is why I joined this site. Amazing Theory!!!!!!... Kudos

[Lady Flandrensis]

I noticed the HS twice using the line: " the sparrow is the humblest and most common of birds", once when Brienne meets him on his way to KL (AFFC Brienne 1) and again when he and Cersei meet for the first time (AFFC Cersei 6). We know GRRM uses many fantasy and mythological tropes throughout his work; the heresy threads point out dozens of them (I love Jon Snow as the Corn King), and the author is steeped in that tradition. This repetition of a phrase, and the use of sparrows, seemed to be pointing to something....

So I did a search on sparrows in mythology. One of the first hits is a Wikipedia article on psychpomps. For those who don't know, a psychopomp is a creature, perhaps animal, perhaps "human-like", that escorts the recent dead to the underwold. The appearance of a psychopomp is a harbinger of death in that vicinity. And sparrows are often represented as psychopomps. Anyone that's read Stephen King's The Dark Half has heard all this.

We have our own psychopomp in The Grim Reaper. Other cultures have them too: In Welsh mythology it's called the Ankou who "is said to drive a cart and stops at a house where someone is about to die." The Celtic tradition has the dullahan.

The dullahan uses the spine of a human corpse for a whip, and their wagon is adorned with funereal objects (e.g. candles in skulls to light the way, the spokes of the wheels are made from thigh bones, the wagon's covering made from a worm-chewed pall) or dried human skin. When the dullahan stops riding, that is where a person is due to die. The dullahan calls out their name, at which point they immediately perish.

There is no way to bar the road against a dullahan – all locks and gates open to them when they approach.

(From the wikipedia article on pychopomps, my emphasis)

Humble birds indeed. Humble can be both the opposite of proud, or being from a humble background. I think the HS could mean the latter (i.e., it's a clue to where he's from), and I think the sparrows are in KL to escort someone (*cough, Cersei, cough*) to where she belongs.

:bowdown:

[pobeb]

So, I was considering the Trial by 7 on my way into work this morning... and something dawned on me:

This isn't just a potential setup for revenge against Cersei, this is a potential setup up for multiple points of revenge, via multiple characters:

1) Sandor Clegane.

I've always been a big fan of the Cleganebowl idea. I think it's a fascinating idea that would have poetic resonance. Furthermore, I have a hard time believing that all of this is a coincidence:

- Sandor is now under the guise of the Faith

- There was a Westrosi-wide call for the Faith to take up arms

- There's precedent for Cersei's Trial by Combat to become a Trial by 7

- Gregor is eligable to fight for Cersei

- Sandor is eligable to fight for the Faith

Now, if it was solely Sandor as an avenger, I wouldn't have been so convinced... but there may be others, and this leads me to my second point:

2) Nym and Tyene Sand

Last we leave these two, they're headed to King's Landing under the guise of a Septa and Silent Sister respectively. What is the significance here? Well, we should remember that they absolutely do not believe Gregor is dead. We know this because they refused to drink to the toast of Gregor's death:

Hotah paid more note to those who did not drink: ... Chief amongst those were the Sand Snakes, the bastard daughters of the prince’s late brother Oberyn, the Red Viper, three of whom were at the feast... Obara, Nymeria, and Tyene.

And, from what we know, Gregor's size is unmistakeable. Even Kevan, Mace, and Randyll have acknowledged this:

We do not even know if he’s alive. Meryn Trant claimed that Strong took neither food nor drink, and Boros Blount went so far as to say he had never seen the man use the privy. Why should he? Dead men do not shit. Kevan Lannister had a strong suspicion of just who this Ser Robert really was beneath that gleaming white armor. A suspicion that Mace Tyrell and Randyll Tarly no doubt shared.

So, if these 3 have gathered who Robert the Strong is, it stands to serve that Nym and Tyene will inevitably figure it out as well. Their purpose, afterall, is reconnaissance.

And, what was initially a covert mission employed by Doran, then becomes a mission of revenge.

You can even see the parallel with Oberyn:

-They're both Snakes (like Oberyn)

-They both are ordered by Doran to remain passive (like Oberyn)

-They are going to go against Doran's orders (like Oberyn)

-They're going to champion against Gregor in a trial by combat (like Oberyn)

So, our list begins to look like this:

Cersei's Champions:

1) Meryn Trant

2) Boros Blount

3) Robert the Strong

Faith's Champions:

1) Howland Reed

2) Galbart Glover

3) Maege Mormont

4) Sandor Clegane

5) Nymeria Sand

6) Tyene Sand

And, the last spot, which I'm going to pose a completely crack-pot idea on:

7) Brienne of Tarth

I haven't quite developed this idea, but if you've enjoyed my theory so far, please bear with me:

Brienne is the biggest woman in the story - Gregor is the biggest man in the story

Brienne is in a position where she's being forced to prove her loyalties to Catelyn

Well, if the GNC theory stands true, and you incorperate the idea that Catelyn pondering Robb's crown is an indication of her considering and eventually submitting to Robb's Will (crowning Jon as King), then it stands to serve that Lady Stoneheart will send Brienne to champion against Cersei in the Trial by 7. Jaime's fate may even be contingent upon Brienne's success or failure to accomplish this - giving Brienne all the motive in the world to show up and participate in the Trial by 7.

Furthermore, and this is dangerously crack-pot, but the show has Sandor fight Brienne, in which she beats and handicaps him pretty soundly. Wouldn't it be poetic if, down the road, they fight together instead of against one another?

From the stand-point of the books, it could also be the poetic tie-in between their meeting on the Quiet Isle.

Anywho, I know this is partly "out-there", but I'm seriously considering adding this to the future "Trial of Joy" thread. Thoughts?

[forestchilde]

^ hey, that's really interesting! I knew there was some significance there, nice find!

Thanks, pobeb. It's been your insights and research driving this theory forward. :bowdown:

I'm really looking forward to your Trial of Joy thread!

[Eggshell Joe]

Anywho, I know this is partly "out-there", but I'm seriously considering adding this to the future "Trial of Joy" thread. Thoughts?

I’m also excited about this Trial of Joy thread. Seems most of the good information about how the trial is shaping up is in AFFC Cersei X.

[HoboJed]

I think Sers Meryn, Boros and Gregor were the 3 squires who harassed him at Harrenhal

Ser Boros Blount I can see as possibly being the porcupine's squire, but given his age he was more likely the knight.

As for Gregor and Meryn Trant... I don't see why they would be squiring for House Haigh or House Frey. Gregor was knighted that year, so may have been the right age to be a squire at the tourney, but why would he be squiring for a knight from the riverlands (same with Trant who is from the stormlands)? Sure it is possible (for example, Edric Dayne squired for Beric Dondarion), it just seems unlikely, and you would hope the text would at least give some kind of hint if it was going to be so vague about it.

[Eggshell Joe]

Ser Boros Blount I can see as possibly being the porcupine's squire, but given his age he was more likely the knight.

As for Gregor and Meryn Trant... I don't see why they would be squiring for House Haigh or House Frey. Gregor was knighted that year, so may have been the right age to be a squire at the tourney, but why would he be squiring for a knight from the riverlands (same with Trant who is from the stormlands)? Sure it is possible (for example, Edric Dayne squired for Beric Dondarion), it just seems unlikely, and you would hope the text would at least give some kind of hint if it was going to be so vague about it.

Oh shoot, were those the houses the squires were squiring for? I didnt realize that. I knew house Blount was there and was beat in joustijng by tkotlt, but didnt note the others, ill edit, thanks.

[pobeb]

snip

Wow, that's a lot to swallow. I can't say I agree with all of it, but trust that I'll take everything into consideration (as I always do)

I agree that the Trial by 7 will end tragically, for most everyone inolved. Mentioning Tyrion, to me, was big help. I forgot about those who stand accused and their champions; and your post has, in my mind, definitively given me the reason why Brienne must be at the Trial of 7: To champion for Jaime.

Massive parallels, which I now can see more clearly: The Lions and their Champions

Tyrion stands accused, calls a trial by combat, and must employ a champion

Cersei stands accused, calls a trial by combat, and must employ a champion

Jaime stands accused, calls a trial by combat, and must employ a champion

And since Catelyn grew up in the faith, and is now called the "Silent Sister" and tells Brienne she must "Prove her Faith", we now have precedent for this future development.

Think about it, it's a win/win for Catelyn. By the rules of the Faith, Catelyn must allow Brienne to champion for Jaime. If Brienne champions for Jaime against Cersei, Catelyn wins either way - since one of the two dies by default.

I stand firm now, Brienne WILL be one of the 7.

Also, I still believe Howland will stand with the other 6. If he doesn't we lose the 7v3 ToJ parallel, which is how this was all brought about.

I know you think Howland is frail, and I'm not saying he isn't, but perhaps there's a much more complex reason to why Ned thought him so reliable, and how he ended up saving Ned. This is way crackpot, but maybe...

Howland is a warg

It would explain the Black Cat showing up in the epilogue, and how Howland is getting insider info which seems impractically gained otherwise

[three-eyed monkey]

POBEB, get your points together on the trial of joy and write the OP. I'm intrigued by it and it deserves it's own thread. Personally, I believe there will be a trial by seven, involving the Hound, Jaime, Brienne, amongst others, but it will be for Sansa. I also expect Cersei to survive her coming trial, thanks to Ser Robert, and make some more mischief. But I'd like to see your theory laid out in full.

I was wondering about HR's end game is, if indeed it is him? I'm sure he has multiple goals in mind, a few mentioned so far in the thread include, avenging Ned, bringing Cersei to justice, crowning Jon, uniting the religions. What do people think? If HS=HR, where is GRRM going with it?

[pobeb]

^ tbh, i think varys will kill him. I'll cover it in total in the new thread, but the short version is:

Howland and Brienne are the only survivors. Brienne leaves KL to retrieve Jaime, who now stands absolved. Howland stays with the other Northmen, awaiting Jon's arrival...

And then Varys springs his trap, allowing J-con and Aegon to sweep over KL, killing all the northern conspirators in the process.

Thus setting the stage for the Dance 2.0

[Lady Flandrensis]

[note: Old Gods issue also down there. It got longer then I intended. Sorry.]

The ability to walk an army through the open gates of KL. He originally showed up with a large group of well armed "sparrows". So he's halfway there.

All the North would have to do is put a sparrow robe on and the entire Northern army could waltz into KL armed and armored.

No one in power seems to pay to much attention to sparrows and septons. So it's a great disguise. You don't need to break down the walls of KL to sac it. Just walk in. Very clever.

As to the old gods issue three points.

1) the HS normally has to be a well known high placed septon. But as Cersi said this HS was elected when he and a group of armed "sparrows" busted into the conclave and "suggested" a new vote. No one knows who the HS was before this so he could literally be a random guy off the street. You don't need credentials when you application includes a bunch of guys with axes making suggestive looks.

2) yes HR follows the old gods. So? He's pretending to be HS not converting. That's just how being a double agent works. You pretend to be loyal to someone to whom you are not. He's faking it. And yes he has no extensive education in the 7 but again his resume included "or this man will hit you with his ax." Which is a compelling argument.

3) he is a weird HS. Everyone thinks something funny is going on with him. I'm inclined to agree.

:agree: It's a brilliant twist and now I'm hoping it's true.