Howland Reed = High Septon?

[Northernmonkey]

it makes sense. the real enemy of the north sits in KL. cut off the head (lannisters/tyrells) and you don't need to fight the tail (boltons/freys). how long could they hold their positions without backing from KL? and if they prove cerseis incest this would remove tommen and myrcella at the same time.

But abandoning the North when it's at war to go on an elaborate mission to raise the small folk and eventually become the High Septon is ridiculous. Especially because you'd have to get rid of Cersei, Tommen and Myrcella to have any effect on the war. It's a completely illogical move. Why not stay in the North and defend your home?

as for gaining followers:

you don't need an educated theologist for this, but a charismatic leader. who is more likely to be one, a humble septon or a lord with years of experience as ruler and probably also as a military commander?

I would say the humble septon is likely to be far better at raising followers. He would have lengthy experience of the smallfolk and their problems, and presumably would have more experience in preaching and making speeches.

[ViserionsFire]

But abandoning the North when it's at war to go on an elaborate mission to raise the small folk and eventually become the High Septon is ridiculous. Especially because you'd have to get rid of Cersei, Tommen and Myrcella to have any effect on the war. It's a completely illogical move. Why not stay in the North and defend your home?

Mormont told Jon about Aemon: that the High Septon himself offered to absolve him from his vow to the Nights Watch

Maege and Galbart left Robb nearly a month before the Red Wedding and the Pink Wedding occurred shortly thereafter. Suppose Maege and Galbart contacted Howland a few weeks after they left Robb, any plan that Robb had devised would have been obsolete after the Red Wedding and it would be incumbent on Robb’s Northern Lords to find retribution. It’s interesting that Galbart Glover and Robett Glover may both secretly be involved in a power play. Robett working with Wyman Manderly and Galbart involved with the Sparrows.

After Tywin released Robett at Duskendale, Robett was put on ship heading north. Word or the Red Wedding probably spread quickly. Maege and Galbart were most likely at Greywater with Robb’s Will. Word would have come to Maege about Dacey and to Wyman Manderly about Wendel about their deaths at the hands of the Freys and Tywin proclaiming Bolton, Warden of the North. With the outrage that must have come after the Red Wedding, Howland may have thought it was the right time to reveal R+L =J. Both Maege and Galbart knew that Robett was sailing north from Duskendale. A two-front plan may have been devised at Greywater to get retribution for both the Red Wedding and overthow the Lannister hold on the Iron Throne. Knowing the contents of Robb’s Will and Howland revealing Jon’s true identity, they come up with a lawful plan to set things right. In order to lawfully remove the Lannister’s from the Crown, it would have to be revealed by the Faith that Tomman is illegitimate and Cersei has no authority. To do this you need stealth and cunning. Nobody in the south knows what Howland looks like, and only Jaime and Martyn Lannister know what Galbart and Maege look like. Being Lord of Greywater Watch, Howland may have as many as 5000 loyal men. If you had 1000 of your men pretend to be armed Sparrows heading south to Kings Landing, that could be what Brienne sees on her travels and who eventually take over Baelors Sept. Howland and Maege being unknown to the south could easily have taken over the sept with a 1000 armed Sparrows. Jaime recognizes as many as a hundred Sparrows in Darry that are there with Lancel. Perhaps Galbart is in charge of the other Sparrows that are in the Riverlands. Darry appears to be very near the Crossroads. If you control the Crossroads, you would control the Kingsroad to armies heading north or south. To accomplish this coup there would have to be a strategist who is cunning and stealthy. It would also need to one who commands respect and is as capable to see a trap as he is to devise one. The High Sparrow deals with Cersei very much like her father would. His mannerisms even remind Cersei of Tywin.

It’s unlikely that a pious poor fellow that roamed from village to village for many years living on scraps would turn into a master of strategy and would speak to a queen as he would an equal. It’s more likely that Howland and Co. devised a plan with his men and those that went to Greywater with Maege and Galbart to take control of the Faith in order to restore the Crown to a just rule and to free the North from Roose.

[Ser Hodor Hodor of Hodor]

^ right! and then when that is done he has recreated one of THE biggest threats the North ever faced historically, in the form of the Faith Millitant, who would evetually turn North and try mass converting everyone away from the Old Gods at sword point and burning weirwoods again. Great plan.

nobody said this plan was perfect.

there could be a certain (bitter) irony to it. history is full of these things. as is good storytelling

USA supplied the soviets with arms in WW2.

USA supported radical muslims in afghanistan.

don't need to explain how all that went. could find dozens of "great" plans that backfired.

[Antler's Fury]

Mormont told Jon about Aemon: that the High Septon himself offered to absolve him from his vow to the Nights Watch

I don't know why so many people get this wrong. The High Septon offered to absolve Aemon of his maester's vows, NOT his NW vows. The offer was made during the Great Council after Maekar's death, and Aemon refused, saying that Egg ought to become king. Aemon only joined the NW after Egg became King. Plus, unlike Aemon, Jon follows the Old Gods, so the High Septon has no authority to absolve him of his vows. And that's assuming Jon is interested in wriggling out of them, which he isn't.

Knowing the contents of Robb’s Will and Howland revealing Jon’s true identity, they come up with a lawful plan to set things right.

Why do people keep equating Robb's will with R+L=J? Robb's will names Jon as heir to the independent Kingdom in the North should he die childless. R+L=J is about Jon being Rhaegar and Lyanna's son. The two goals associated with these theories are mutually exclusive: Jon can't be King of an independent North and King on the Iron Throne simultaneously. If the Northerners still want independence, and want Jon as their king, then R=L=J is irrelevant. In fact, they need the myth that Jon is Ned's son and Robb's brother to make his claim stick. In contrast, if they want Jon on the Iron Throne, then Robb's will is irrelevant. But the latter is even crazier than the former, because the Northerners really ought to be far more concerned about Roose and the Freys attacking their homeland than about putting Jon on the Iron Throne, which no Stark has ever been interested in. And of course, Jon also got assassinated. Oops! Maybe if these guys had actually been doing something important in the North, or sent Jon some soldiers, or told him about Robb's will or something, instead of trying to secure a throne without securing a king, this would not have happened.

It’s more likely that Howland and Co. devised a plan with his men and those that went to Greywater with Maege and Galbart to take control of the Faith in order to restore the Crown to a just rule and to free the North from Roose.

How does this free the North from Roose? Even if Cersei and Tommen are overthrown, it's not like Roose is just going to put down his weapons and surrender once he hears about it. This is why it is a colossal waste of time.

[Northernmonkey]

^ right! and then when that is done he has recreated one of THE biggest threats the North ever faced historically, in the form of the Faith Millitant, who would evetually turn North and try mass converting everyone away from the Old Gods at sword point and burning weirwoods again. Great plan.

That's a brilliant point. There's no way Howland would be stupid enough to arm a religious force that is completely opposed to the old gods. Case closed.

[Hippocras]

septon meribalds feet are not described the same way. the descriptions are similar, but there are remarkable differences. both are described as black, but about meribalds feet it is said they are "hard as horn" which is a very fitting description for callus and only indicates that he did a lot of walking, but there are no hints of any deformations. the feet of the HS are describd as "gnarled and hard as tree roots". this would be a strange description for callus and instad indicates serious deformations. i don't think the phrase "as tree roots" is a coincidence here, but a hint by grrm. note that both descriptions are from the same POV (Brienne), why should the same person use such different words if it would look the same?

walking bare-footed (even over a long period of time) doesn't lead to deformation, unless you suffer under a serious medical condition such as those i described above. in addition the reference to roots seems like a clever hint when cosidering that he does actually praises the old gods, not only because of the role of trees in that religion, but also because of its metaphorical meaning.

1. Since neither Meera nor Jojen have deformed tree root feet, I don't see why people think the HS's feet are proof of anything to do with Howland Reed. If anything they are the opposite: The two crannogman we know well in fact have normal feet and wear boots.

2. The HS is older than Meribald and as he is the leader of the Sparrow movement he has likely been walking much longer. There is no need to look any further than this for the reason behind the HS's feet being an extreme version of Meribald's - same thing done for more years, causing more damage.

3. When authors write they use evocative descriptions because that is what makes writing enjoyable. The feet compared to tree roots is certainly about putting an image in the readers' minds, but there is absolutely no evidence it was intended as anything more than to give us a sense of how extreme the condition of the feet is.

[Ser Hodor Hodor of Hodor]

But abandoning the North when it's at war to go on an elaborate mission to raise the small folk and eventually become the High Septon is ridiculous. Especially because you'd have to get rid of Cersei, Tommen and Myrcella to have any effect on the war. It's a completely illogical move. Why not stay in the North and defend your home?

I would say the humble septon is likely to be far better at raising followers. He would have lengthy experience of the smallfolk and their problems, and presumably would have more experience in preaching and making speeches.

getting rid of cersei, tommen and myrcella is the same thing when you do it the right way. prove cerseis incest in a trial and her children are out of the game.

and defend your home? the neck was never under attack and the crannogmen can deal with invaders without HR. partisan warfare does not need a central command.

HR rules over smallfolk, when they have problems he is the one they ask for help! lords know how to make speeches. they are leaders, their whole life they are prepared for that. a wandering septon has no leadership experience, they stay with people for days or weeks and leave, they have no followers. they might offer spiritual guidance, but thats not the same as actually leading a group of people.

1. Since neither Meera nor Jojen have deformed tree root feet, I don't see why people think the HS's feet are proof of anything to do with Howland Reed. If anything they are the opposite: The two crannogman we know well in fact have normal feet and wear boots.

2. The HS is older than Meribald and as he is the leader of the Sparrow movement he has likely been walking much longer. There is no need to look any further than this for the reason behind the HS's feet being an extreme version of Meribald's - same thing done for more years, causing more damage.

3. When authors write they use evocative descriptions because that is what makes writing enjoyable. The feet compared to tree roots is certainly about putting an image in the readers' minds, but there is absolutely no evidence it was intended as anything more than to give us a sense of how extreme the condition of the feet is.

1. they are young. let them spend another 20 years in the swamps and they might have the same problems. if you would have read my previous posts you would know that i have mentioned a chronical medical condition that could well be responisble for the deformations. and you would also have noticed that this condition not only makes wearing boots very painful, but also is worsened by wearing them (especially when in a wet area), so it would make sense to put them off when you already suffer under that condition. in addition not wearing shoes/boots is part of the disguiseas a septon. there is no reason why young healthy people who leave the swamps should go bare-footed. nobody said that all crannogmen walk aroung bare-footed.

2. walking bare-footed does not lead to deformations of the feet. even today you'll find many people who walk bare-footed all their lives (not in europe or north america, but very often in africa, parts of asia and south america). they don't have deformations. there will be a lot of callus at the bottom of the feet, but thats it.

3. i doubt that a expression like that is purely a coincidence. grrm chooses his words very carefully and he has previously used it as a method to give hints. it is funny btw how people sometimes interpret the text word for word, but dismiss it as unimportant when it doesn't fit with their theories. the expression "hard as tree roots" is very unusual, why should grrm choose such an expression that can easily be seen as hint when it means nothing?

one more thing:

please stop using the words "hint" and "evidence" interchangeably.

there are neither evidences that proof nor such that debunk the theory, we are only talking about hints here.

[forestchilde]

I don't have much time to respond to all of the new material, so only a couple or three quick points for now.

First of all, I'm not interested in any flame wars or sarcasm battles to score points. I'm here to enjoy a lively debate, but let's remember: we're talking about things that may or may not happen in a world that doesn't exist. As far as I'm concerned, no theory is 100% until I read it in an ASOIF novel! So, if I ever seem snarky much, please call me on it. As a newbie, I'd only like to say thanks to those that promote civility.

Secondly: Antler's Fury, I'm glad you are back. Your posts are always cogent and thorough, even if I disagree with some, maybe a lot, of your logic. I commend you for taking the time to express your views eloquently. Hippocras, I commend you for tenacity. You've stuck around forever arguing your points, which I usually disagree with, but hey, you're not a quitter! I feel you could sometimes be a little more civil about it, but then, I'm sure not a mod, and as the saying goes, "If you can't stand the heat, etc."

Finally, as to the theory HS=HR: I don't think that one of HR's motives is to put Jon Snow on the Iron Throne. The northern lords want a king in the north and independence from the south, not the rule of the seven kingdoms (well, maybe a Bolton or two). The threat to this from the south is very real: until the advent of the novels, the IT did rule the north; later, Tywin did manage to defeat and kill Robb, and place Roose as warden in the north. So the threat from the south is real. I do think the northern lords have a desire to make Jon Snow king in the north, but I also agree that this has many flaws worth discussing, not the least of which that all bets are off when Ice Zombie Apocalypse 2 happens. And I think Howland Reed does have some knowledge of IZA2, else why send your green-seeing kid, and daughter, off to unchain the flying Wolf?

I don't have time for a more detailed response right now, but soon I hope.

[forestchilde]

Oh, one more thing: Why does everyone have the idea that the old gods and 7 followers are so antagonistic? The wars with the Andals ended thousands of years ago, we have every indication that the two faiths coexist peacefully now. Arming the FM does not mean they will go storming the northlands.

[Hippocras]

I abhor the theory with a passion. I don't even see why it needs to be debated: religious zealotry of the Faith of the Andals is a VERY bad thing for the North and not something any Old God worshipper would EVER in their right mind turn into a militarized force for whatever ends.

So if I appear pissed off on this thread it is because I am. It is like a make-work project to force people to counter the extreme levels of ultimately pointless text analysis that has gone into persuading people against all reason that this theory is worth their time.

[Hippocras]

Oh, one more thing: Why does everyone have the idea that the old gods and 7 followers are so antagonistic? The wars with the Andals ended thousands of years ago, we have every indication that the two faiths coexist peacefully now. Arming the FM does not mean they will go storming the northlands.

This is not the benign version of the Faith - it is the militarized zealot version. Big difference.

[Ziriath]

There is Bolton at Winterfell, many northern lords are locked inside Twins, Moat Cailin is under Bolton's control as well...If Howland's business was to gather religious fanatics (weapon which can horribly backfire if he happens to die), imprison Cersei, shave all her hair and force her to a naked walk (without being sure she ends up dead or without power), he and Maege will lose the credit I have for them.....

[three-eyed monkey]

Antler's Fury. To think that the High Sparrow has strengthened the crown is to make the same mistake Cersei did, despite the warnings of Pycelle, who unlike Cersei knew his history. The Faith and the crown fought a bloody conflict which was only resolved when Jaehaerys came to power and found a solution that made sure he was remembered to history as the Conciliator. Because of Jaehaerys the Faith lost it's right to stand in judgement over the crown and to arm the militia. The High Sparrow has reversed this for forgiving of a debt and the promise to bless Tommen. (I'm not sure we can be certain that Tommen has been blessed at this stage as there has been no confirmation of it as far as I can recall). I think he clearly got the better deal here and only Cersei could think otherwise.

The High Sparrow is putting Cersei on trial for a number of things, Robert's death, the High Septon's death, and the charge of her children being born of incest amongst them. The charge of incest is the big one really, and if history is anything to go by is an issue that could provoke a bloody war between the crown and Faith, which would weaken both.

I do, however, take your point about crowning Jon. I'm not convinced that is part of the agenda. And there is a lot of other stuff in this theory and subsequent posts that I'm not convinced of either.

As I said in a previous post, I consider Howland's motive to be more ice and fire than a game of thrones. The Crannogmen were close to the Children. House Reed is sworn to the Starks by ice and fire. The Last Hero enlisted the help of the Children in the fight against the Others. The Children supplied the Night's Watch with dragonglass weapons. Howland spent a winter on the Isle of Faces where he met the Green Men, who trace their roots to the Pact between Children and First Men. Howland sent his kids to Bran and Jojen guided Bran to Bloodraven and the Children. And curiously, when Meera was telling Bran about TKotLT, she did have a story about the Green Men too, but I think she said she would tell it another day. I wonder what that story will reveal, if ever she does get to tell it? So I guess my question is this; do Howland, Bloodraven,the CotF, and the Green Men share the same agenda? And would pitching the Faith and the crown against each other serve such an agenda?

[Bail o' Lies]

I sorry I'm new here so I'm not sure how to quote on this site yet, but I'm going to try answering Mr. Antler's Fury recent questions.

High Sparrow's Appearance:

The Brown eyes, the knotted hair, his height and the feet are more important in the way they are describe than just appearance. Yes brown eyes are come yes knotted might be more common among the small folk yes the feet could just be from yes of walking around the riverlands. That's not important what important is how those detail were describe in a similar way to how the Reed' children were described. That what is important.

"he's apparently too old to stop Cersei from pushing him aside, while Howland Reed had enough physical strength to fight several members of the Kingsguard, the best knights alive, and survive. Not really definitive at all"

It has been 15 years since the Battle at the Tower of Joy what people can't age and lose the strength they had in their youth?

Also who said Howland fought the King's guard directly? We have all heard by this point the Story of the Knight of The Laughing Tree where he was unable to fight of three squires that where younger than him. We the Toj was about two years later where he had to fight against Three(same number) of the greatest knights in the land. Yes I know a war happen in the year before the battle but how could he bulk up that much in two years? Also if we go throughout Bran's chapter we have more or less gotten a look what the crannogmen are. They are short little bog people that fight with poison, spears, and nets who really leave the Neck. It is most likely that during the to the the other side Northmen fought the KG two on one while Howland tried sneaking around trying to see if he could stab one of the KG with his spear when they weren't looking.

GNC

Yes the GNC is at least Wyman Manderly's plan to put the Starks backing Winterfell by getting the Lords in Winterfell to betray the Boltons while he's fighting with Stannis. But who says that Reed can't make his own plan of putting Jon the son of Rheagar on the Iron Throne. Think about it if the Northern Lords put a Stark back in Winterfell do you really think that any of the contenders are going to take that lying down. Every time Northern secession is brought up by a character from the south all they have to say on it is that they will not let their king lose half his kingdom (examples Renly, Stannis, Cersei, and Tywin excreta excreta).

If Cersei is still around when Jon or Rickton become King in the North or Lord of Winterfell she is never going to let the Starks rise to power again for at least 3 reason: 1 every living Stark has very deep and personal reason to hate her and the current regime 2. the destruction of the Starks is one of the few success of her regency (w hich was from Robert's death to her walk of shame) that can be attributed to her in some ways 3. if the North were to rise it would be under that banners of either Stannis or Jon both of whom she considers her enemies.

The Tyrells originally wanted to marry Sansa to Willas in order for him to start producing an heir but also to start the Tyrells of Winterfell through Sansa children as well. But once Sansa was married to Tyrion they abandoned that idea and blamed her for the death of Joffery. They can't back out now and try to support a Starks after that, and if the North rises for Stannis they'll undoubtedly oppose them in fear of what Stannis would do to them if he ever became king.

Dany thinks Ned Stark deserved his death for rebelling against her father with the Usurper, and may feel what happen to his family was just further punishment for his crimes. If the North does anything but kneel to her she'll probably use dragon fire on them till they do.

fAegon group. Aegon probably either doesn't have an opinion of them or something similar to Dany or he figures I'm their king they'll do what I want. Jon on the other hand well he did not like Elia and thought she was not worthy of Rheagar even though he trying to put her child on the Iron Throne. What do you think is his opinion of the family that led to the down fall and death of his Silver Prince?

So the only way for a Stark to rule Winterfell safely is to put a pro-stark king on the throne which is either Stannis or Jon. The Northmen have seen King Stannis they know that his god wants to burn their tree gods but he can't do it because he needs their support. But what is to prevent him or R'hllors worshipers from doing it after he became king and they are no longer as important to his power base as they were at the end of the fifth book. So Stannis is a temporary fix to them but not the permanent one they are looking for that would be Jon who was raised by The Ned.

Northern sparrows and septas ,women held by she-bears, Sparrow's weapons, The Sparrows and Duskendale, Norhthern Presence,. Ser Theodan Well the True:

Too be honest I think pobeb was going a bit over the top with this stuff but some of it does make sense. The Theodan the True thing was probably the best piece of evidence that help make HR=HS seems plausible at least to me it does.

I don't think all the septas with Cersei's in the Walk of Shame were all Lady Mormont and her daughters I think one of them may be but that's it. It justdoesn't seem that smart to put all the Mormont in charge of watching Cersei when one would do. if Howland Reed was smart enough to concocted this plan than he should be smart to spread his allies throughout the important position in the Faith. For example like Lord Glover in charge of the Poor Fellows, Theodan the True in charge of the Warrior's Son, the Mormont women in charge of the various setpas such as initiates the silent sister and so on instead of just watching over Cersei.

The other stuff is like the High Sparrow desription it how the words are use to decribe them is important.

Rickon vs. Jon:

If what I think is happening is that case than the goal is Rickon as Lord of Winterfell and Jon on the Iron Throne this removes the secession crisis you were talking about as well as putting a pro Stark king on the Iron Throne.

Howland Motive and Methods:

Remember this Howland owes Jon's mother Lyanna Stark for helping him out at Harrenhall. So it is not like it's a difficult decision to agree with Ned's idea of how to hide her child from Robert's wrath, or whatever Tywin Lannister would do to secure his legacy. So at the time it was the best decision to just hide Jon and never speak of it again... but that changed when Ned got his head cut off and most of the Starks are presumed dead or are forced in to hiding. Now suddenly revealing that one of Rheagar's (a person who was and still is well loved)children still live, and trying to put him on the throne which is currently sat on by a boy king who mother is despised and birth father is in doubt seems like a very good idea. As for the Northern Interdependence Movement died with Robb Stark they lost too many men in the war and winter is coming and so are the others. The North can't leave the Seven Kingdoms and hope to survive, but if they must still be part of the Seven kingdoms why not try to get a king who is pro North and pro Stark? As for revenge their are three party that were apart of the Red wedding were they not? The Boltons the Frey and the Lannisters isn't that correct? well since you brought up the GNC let say it true for this revenge. Well we have Manderly in the North using Stannis to destroy the Boltons, and we have Lady StoneHeart in the Riverlands destryoing the Frey using the Brotherhood Without Banner yes? Then why can't Howland try to destroy the Lannister using the faith in King's Landing?

Howland's "Brilliant" plan:

Yes Howland started out with two leverages over Cersei both equally worthless in threatening her with.

The Million gold Dragon debt if the High Septon had tried to hang that over her head like the Iron Bank tried to do she'll just refuse to pay it. Leaving the HS to bark about complaining about money which would make it seem like he's greedy. The reason why it was bad when she tried to do this on the Iron Bank is that they they found the other people the Crown had money owed money to called in their debts forcing them to call in the debts the crown owed them and basically cause a chain reaction of everyone that the crown owed money to suddenly calling their debt while also the the crown not being able to find anyone that would loan them money. In short the same thing economist say would happen if the U.S. debt ever hit 20 trillion.

The Faith's Blessing Cersei is not religious and she only wanted for the symbol of authority it gave to Tommen as well as to keep the peasant from bleating about it. If he had tried threatening her with that she would ignored it or just done what she did to the last High Septon.

The best thing he can do is cash it in for an army, and the right to judge.

Land StoneHeart:

She want revenge and if she part of the GNC she already knows.

Trail of Joy:

I'm doubtful about it playing out like pobeb thinks it will.

[Antler's Fury]

Antler's Fury. To think that the High Sparrow has strengthened the crown is to make the same mistake Cersei did, despite the warnings of Pycelle, who unlike Cersei knew his history. The Faith and the crown fought a bloody conflict which was only resolved when Jaehaerys came to power and found a solution that made sure he was remembered to history as the Conciliator. Because of Jaehaerys the Faith lost it's right to stand in judgement over the crown and to arm the militia. The High Sparrow has reversed this for forgiving of a debt and the promise to bless Tommen. (I'm not sure we can be certain that Tommen has been blessed at this stage as there has been no confirmation of it as far as I can recall). I think he clearly got the better deal here and only Cersei could think otherwise.

My point is that arming the Faith is of little use to Howland, much less than the Crown's debts and the power to bless Tommen are. This growing army of zealots has no love for the Old Gods that Howland and Jon keep, and would not at all be pleased at the idea of Jon, who is either a bastard or born of polygamy, taking power. As such, the fact that the High Sparrow wanted the FM revived suggests that he is exactly who he seems to be: a religious purist.

[sandywinder]

Assuming HS is not HR we have to wonder why the HS so quickly turned against Cersei, after she did so much to help the sparrows cause? The suspicions he has against Osney's confession re Margaery may also point to an historic reason. This adds to the case for HS = HR, although I am keeping a neutral stance on it. The casting for HS in the next series is Jonathan Pryce, who is 67 years old and so points to an older man than HR.

So that is one for and one against. Take your pick.

[three-eyed monkey]

My point is that arming the Faith is of little use to Howland, much less than the Crown's debts and the power to bless Tommen are. This growing army of zealots has no love for the Old Gods that Howland and Jon keep, and would not at all be pleased at the idea of Jon, who is either a bastard or born of polygamy, taking power. As such, the fact that the High Sparrow wanted the FM revived suggests that he is exactly who he seems to be: a religious purist.

The point I was addressing was your claim that the HS strengthened the crown with his actions. This was incorrect. On the issue of arming the FM, yes this does strengthen the Faith to a degree but if he pitches them against the crown over the incest issue, and presumably the crown would fight back, then the ensuing conflict will weaken both sides. Pitching your enemies against each other is a ploy as old as war itself.

I'm not opposed to the HS being a zealot, who wants to return the Faith to what he sees as its rightful position. If this is the case then the story would again be heading towards war between the Faith and the crown, imo, and if that happens then I should think that the news of such a conflict would be welcomed in North.

[Zoravar Singh]

Are there any mentions of recent conflicts between the Faith and the followers of the old gods? Because, the two seem to have co-existed for quite a while and can easily do so, as long as none of them wants to force convert the others.

[Ser Hodor Hodor of Hodor]

before the faith militant would fight the old gods (or better: its followers) they would want to deal with R'hllor who is a real threat to the faith. it has started to spread in westeros thanks to stannis (and in part to thoros) and it is very intolerant towards other religion (especially the melisandre-version). if stannis would become king the faith would at least lose all influence on the crown and could possibly be threatened in its very existence. stannis has burned statues before, once he sits the IT what could prevent him of burning the great sept if his priestess demands it for her magic?

that is what the faith would be most afraid of, not the religion that made one fat guy convert in thousands of years.

dany could also be seen as a threat when word spreads that volantene slaves who also follow R'hllor see her as a religious figure.

if there is an emerging religious conflict then it is between the faith of the seven and R'hllor, the north could stand by and watch.

[Hippocras]

Assuming HS is not HR we have to wonder why the HS so quickly turned against Cersei, after she did so much to help the sparrows cause? The suspicions he has against Osney's confession re Margaery may also point to an historic reason. This adds to the case for HS = HR, although I am keeping a neutral stance on it. The casting for HS in the next series is Jonathan Pryce, who is 67 years old and so points to an older man than HR.

So that is one for and one against. Take your pick.

It doesn't support this particular theory any more than the others on HS's identity. In fact it is stronger support for this one:

Faith Militant = Doran Martell's real long-term plan for Lannister revenge.

Martells actually DO adhere to the Faith of the Seven. Martells actually HAVE been plotting Lannister revenge for long enough to set up the ground work of the Sparrow movement, which could not possibly be true of Howland Reed. Martells really DO fight their wars guerrilla style. Martells really do want to destroy everything Tywin held dear, which is first and foremost the reputation of his family - and the shame walk serves that end.