Howland Reed = High Septon?

[Bail o' Lies]

Wait Mr.Hippocras you saying you believe that Doran is behind this High Sparrow? That makes no sense even less sense than HS being HR or one of Varys allies.

Yes I know that Doran likes to keep his plans secret to the point it screws him over, but he has explained his plan to his daughter, and to the Sand siblings now by fifth book and the spoilers of the six book.Right now His plan is to send his daughter to this fake Aegon to see if he is his nephew. Send Nymeria to the Small Cuncil so they have an ear to what going on in the government in King's Landing and how they are holding so on and so for. Send Tyene to the faith to check out this new High Septon because he's not a puppet like the other were. Yes I know he like to keep his plans secret the problem with your idea is that he has already told these girls the plan, and what he wants them to do. Which is mainly check out what going on then report back to him. He's not giving Tyene some secret message that only his super spy would know what it is. He's sending her to see if she can find away to manipulate him to the Martell side. If Doran already had him then why would he need to send anyone he's deep under cover?(and he's doing his job flawlessly). Also the reason he's sending Tyene of all people is her mother was a septa so she knows a bit about the faith, and she looks innocent. He job again is to worm her way into this Sparrows go graces in order to get him onto the Martell side again if he had the HS why would he need to do that?

[Hippocras]

I do not subscribe to any particular theory on the High Sparrow.

Do not misrepresent my post.

What I said was that the post I quoted was in fact a stronger argument for the Martells being behind the Sparrows than Howland Reed.

[Bail o' Lies]

And I said no it is weaker than HS=HR because of If HS is a Doran Martell ally than why would he need to send Tyene to him to figure out how to turn him to the Martell side? Why would he need to send anyone to him? He's doing a better job of destroying the Lannisters in a few months than Doran has been able to do in over sixteen years. If HS is a Martell ally then when the HS hears about them allying with fAegon than all he has to do is throw his support behind them, or when Aegon sits on the Throne bless him as the true king.

Also the HS doesn't fit Doran typical M.O. Doran is a slow methodical planner who like to keep everything a secret as long as he can and tries to find out as much inforation as he can. And when he finally trust information of the plan to other people he tries to keep it to as few a number of people as he possible can (normally keeping the conspirators limiting it to family). The HS thing started in the Riverlands (i.e. not Dorne where Doran would have full control of it's formation) and was to quickly for something Doran would plan out.

[sandywinder]

Also the HS came from the north not the south. Brienne saw him on the road to Duskendale, possibly fleeing the lost battle. I am not overly convinced that HS = HR but I do think he is someone from the north.

[Hippocras]

Also the HS came from the north not the south. Brienne saw him on the road to Duskendale, possibly fleeing the lost battle. I am not overly convinced that HS = HR but I do think he is someone from the north.

There is no evidence whatsoever on where he came from but given the low proportion of northerners who are religious zealots for the Faith of the Seven, I would rank the likelihood he is a Northerner as extremely low.

Where Brienne met him is irrelevant.

It is specifically stated that he has spent many many years wandering all over the Seven Kingdoms. Where he was wandering at the particular moment when we first met him has nothing to do with where he is from.

[Hippocras]

And I said no it is weaker than HS=HR because of If HS is a Doran Martell ally than why would he need to send Tyene to him to figure out how to turn him to the Martell side? Why would he need to send anyone to him? He's doing a better job of destroying the Lannisters in a few months than Doran has been able to do in over sixteen years. If HS is a Martell ally then when the HS hears about them allying with fAegon than all he has to do is throw his support behind them, or when Aegon sits on the Throne bless him as the true king.

Also the HS doesn't fit Doran typical M.O. Doran is a slow methodical planner who like to keep everything a secret as long as he can and tries to find out as much inforation as he can. And when he finally trust information of the plan to other people he tries to keep it to as few a number of people as he possible can (normally keeping the conspirators limiting it to family). The HS thing started in the Riverlands (i.e. not Dorne where Doran would have full control of it's formation) and was to quickly for something Doran would plan out.

IF the Sparrows are part of Doran's plan to destroy the Lannisters (and I said IF) then Tyene was not actually sent for the stated purpose. He already specifically said he does not trust the Sand Snakes or Arianne to keep their mouths shut. So he never tells them his actual plans. The real reason Tyene was placed as a septa with the High Sparrow, if this is the case, is because Tommen is guarded 24-7 by septas, and Doran knows that Tyene would have no problem with killing Tommen, when the time is right.

So getting close to the High Sparrow is just the reason he is giving Tyene for now because he doesn't trust her with his full plans.

[Ser Hodor Hodor of Hodor]

It doesn't support this particular theory any more than the others on HS's identity. In fact it is stronger support for this one:

Faith Militant = Doran Martell's real long-term plan for Lannister revenge.

Martells actually DO adhere to the Faith of the Seven. Martells actually HAVE been plotting Lannister revenge for long enough to set up the ground work of the Sparrow movement, which could not possibly be true of Howland Reed. Martells really DO fight their wars guerrilla style. Martells really do want to destroy everything Tywin held dear, which is first and foremost the reputation of his family - and the shame walk serves that end.

the idea that the martells have send the HS does not make any sense. doran sends tyene sand to KL and tells her: "...this new High Septon is not the puppet that the others were. Try and get close to him."

so why should doran send tyene to spy on his own agent? and why wouldn't he tell her that he is his agent? he does the opposite when saying that the HS is not a puppet.

IF the Sparrows are part of Doran's plan to destroy the Lannisters (and I said IF) then Tyene was not actually sent for the stated purpose. He already specifically said he does not trust the Sand Snakes or Arianne to keep their mouths shut. So he never tells them his actual plans. The real reason Tyene was placed as a septa with the High Sparrow, if this is the case, is because Tommen is guarded 24-7 by septas, and Doran knows that Tyene would have no problem with killing Tommen, when the time is right.

So getting close to the High Sparrow is just the reason he is giving Tyene for now because he doesn't trust her with his full plans.

so you are saying that doran want tyene to kill tommen but is afraid she might tell someone that she is on a secret mission to kill the king? so she sends her on a secret spy mission hoping she might act on her own when killing him? so dorans plans are so secret that even the people who perform the tasks do not know that they are performing a task for him? that is absolutely ridiculous. just a matter of time until someone claims dorans plans are so secret that he doesn't know them himself.

[Hippocras]

the idea that the martells have send the HS does not make any sense. doran sends tyene sand to KL and tells her: "...this new High Septon is not the puppet that the others were. Try and get close to him."

so why should doran send tyene to spy on his own agent? and why wouldn't he tell her that he is his agent? he does the opposite when saying that the HS is not a puppet.

Already answered. See post immediately above yours.

[Ser Hodor Hodor of Hodor]

Already answered. See post immediately above yours.

and i already wrote that this idea is absolutely ridiculous. and there is not the slightest hint that points at it. if we start making theories that are based solely only personal assumptions without any hint inthe text every discussio is worthless.

also:

doran does not trust the sand snakes because they might act on their own, not because they cannot keep their mouths shut when they are send on a secret mission

[Hippocras]

Again, for the sake of this thread, the point was that the post I quoted was a better argument for this theory that the absolutely ludicrous Howland Reed theory. That remains true.

Doran has been specifically plotting revenge against Lannisters since Elia died, so is a far better candidate for secretly setting up the Sparrow movement than Howland Reed.

The actual evidence for the Martell Sparrows theory is on the same level as the Howland Reed theory - extremely poor. But that is for a thread actually about that theory.

[Ser Hodor Hodor of Hodor]

Again, for the sake of this thread, the point was that the post I quoted was a better argument for this theory that the absolutely ludicrous Howland Reed theory. That remains true.

...

okay i got what you wanted to say. just didn't make much sense to me to say something could be a better argument for a theory that is definitely false. because when we know that there is no chance something could be right we can hardly call that a theory anymore.

but i get that your point is to portray the HR=HS theory as something that is proven as false.

...

Doran has been specifically plotting revenge against Lannisters since Elia died, so is a far better candidate for secretly setting up the Sparrow movement than Howland Reed.

...

the main problem with this theory is that someone looked for people with possible motives (which is already a problem in a story told by unreliable narrators and POV-characters) and then tried to put together a theory how this person could be behind the HS. so someone looked for things he could interpret as evidence/hints and tried to find new theories (not even based on any hints) to explain things that are actual evidences against the theory.

the HR=HS theory comes from a different direction, while the motive is still unclear it is solely based on hints that are in the text (that of course might be misinterpreted). so someone put these hints together and looked for the person that would fit and that was only HR.

...

The actual evidence for the Martell Sparrows theory is on the same level as the Howland Reed theory - extremely poor. But that is for a thread actually about that theory.

as i pointed out earlier there is a difference between HINT and EVIDENCE. what is correct is that there are no evidences for one of these theories, but the difference between those 2 theories is that the HR=HS theory is not proven as false in the text while the martell-theory is. and in my personal opinion the hints that lead to th HR=HS theory are much more convincing

[siknes]

People! People!

Do not misrepresent Hippo. His or her 4K+posts are nothing but to be negative of anything presented on these forums.

As of now there are 410 posts, I bet 120+ are his/her negative remarks.

[Bail o' Lies]

IF the Sparrows are part of Doran's plan to destroy the Lannisters (and I said IF) then Tyene was not actually sent for the stated purpose. He already specifically said he does not trust the Sand Snakes or Arianne to keep their mouths shut. So he never tells them his actual plans. The real reason Tyene was placed as a septa with the High Sparrow, if this is the case, is because Tommen is guarded 24-7 by septas, and Doran knows that Tyene would have no problem with killing Tommen, when the time is right.

So getting close to the High Sparrow is just the reason he is giving Tyene for now because he doesn't trust her with his full plans.

So he's not explaining the part of the plan that the girl needs to know in order to do his plan, and just hopes she can guess it? You know this is why all of Doran plans end with dead family members. :)

Also no he's send her over to check out the new High Septon. In order for him to get information about the HS so he can make another plan from the information Tyene gives her.

If Nymeria and Tyene kill Tommen it's because its what they decided to do it not because it is part of his plan. Like when his brother fighting the Mountain and his son trying to steal a dragon and died for their troubles. Unless your telling me that was apart of the plan?

Also if Doran's plan is to make the High Septon do ...something would really be a good idea to send a girl that know as much about poison as her father, and her introduction included after Doran touch her a Maester had to check him over to see if she injected a poison into him? What if she think her plan is to KILL the High Septon which leads the Tyrell and the Lannister to put a puppet as the High Septon leading to the Faith Militia to opposing the Targaryens when they appear? Can you answer that you brought up the theory defend it!

[fuem]

As long as there is blood I dont mind either way.

[pobeb]

I noticed some interesting parallels, which could definitely foreshadow Jaime's fate. Each time Cersei invokes some pious exclamation from the High Septon, he specifically presses his fingers together like a steeple. However, when he steeples his hands in judgement, Cersei notes this:

"He pressed the fingers of his hands together, the same gesture she had seen her father use a thousand times."

Interestingly, Jaime sees this same gesture used from a different pious figure, also sitting in judgement:

"Hasty folded his hands before him like a steeple, in a way that reminded Jaime uncomfortably of his father."

This is the same gesture Tywin would take when sitting in judgment of someone.

I dont think it's a coincidence that Bonifer used this same gesture, or that Bonifer runs Harrenhal, or that Harrenhal is most likely Catelyn's next stop, or that Jaime's judgment is nigh.

I'm guessing Bonifer plays a part in saving Jaime from being executed. Afterwards, Catelyn pits him into the same ultimatum-type circumstance that she gave Brienne, when he's sent as a mystery knight to stand as one of the seven champions against Cersei (the warrior, with "one hand" on his sword)

p.s. Posting from my phone, so I'm limited in how I present text.

[pobeb]

More interesting foreshadow during Jaime and Bonifer's exchange, this time in regards to Sandor:

"If it is Sandor Clegane that we encounter, what would you have me do?"

Pray hard, Jaime thought, and run. "Send him to join his beloved brother..."

;)

[Clariana]

I was just today reading this book and then I glanced at the top right hand corner of the page and, guess what? There was a number on it, and the number was "42"... And then I recalled that the day before last, a Tuesday, I was reading another book and that had a page in it with the number 42 on it as well!

This cannot be a coincidence... They must be the same book!

[three-eyed monkey]

I was just today reading this book and then I glanced at the top right hand corner of the page and, guess what? There was a number on it, and the number was "42"... And then I recalled that the day before last, a Tuesday, I was reading another book and that had a page in it with the number 42 on it as well!

This cannot be a coincidence... They must be the same book!

In the example you stated you are right to say that "this cannot be a coincidence" because it is not a coincidence. The fact that most books have their pages numbered is the common-causal variable. However, your conclusion that they are the same book, and the logic you used to arrive at the conclusion, is deeply flawed.

[Antler's Fury]

In the example you stated you are right to say that "this cannot be a coincidence" because it is not a coincidence. The fact that most books have their pages numbered is the common-causal variable. However, your conclusion that they are the same book, and the logic you used to arrive at the conclusion, is deeply flawed.

I think the point is that lots of people steeple their hands when they are judging something, so there's no reason to assume that there's some kind of connection there.

[CharlesW]

That would make things interesting.