Howland Reed = High Septon?

[pobeb]

It's so silly to continue denying the plausibility of this theory - theres just such an overwhelming abundance of textual evidence. I'd really love to move this conversation to who represents Cersei's judges, but it's apparently too complex an idea. Oh well.

[The King In Yellow]

It's so silly to continue denying the plausibility of this theory - theres just such an overwhelming abundance of textual evidence. I'd really love to move this conversation to who represents Cersei's judges, but it's apparently too complex an idea. Oh well.

I am with you on this theory.

What I consider the stronger foreshadowing for this is the Lioness and the Frog quotes made earlier.

What I do not comprehend is the Tywin, HS and Bonifer relationship with the hand gestures.

These all are different characters without any doubt, yet do the same thing; remind Cercei and Jaime of Tywin.

[WeaselPie]

King in Yellow - this is strange. When you said The Lioness and the Frog, I immediately thought of an old fairy tale, not Cersei's quote from the book.

A Fairy Lioness (the "bad guy" in the story - a woman in lion's furs) imprisons a Queen in a cave. The Queen rescues a frog from a raven, and the frog tells the Queen all the creatures in the cave used to be human, and that the frog itself was half-fairy. The Queen has a daughter, the Princess, while imprisoned.

A bunch of other stuff happens and the Queen and Princess escape from the cave.

In the end, the frog helps the royal family free a Prince from inside a dragon by giving the Princess' betrothed a magical three-headed horse.

- I need to find that online and post a link for the whole thing. It may or may not be relevant to the discussion.

Pobeb, I'd like to hear the rest of your theory on this re: the judges

[Game Of Thrones]

1. Howland has Jojen's eyes, I believe.

2. Howland looks like a crannogmen since the squires correctly identified him as one and bullied him. The HS does not look like a crannogmen, or otherwise Septon Luceon would have identified him as one. Remember, Septon Luceon is a Frey, and Freys are the archenemies of crannogmen.

3. Howland is utterly adored by the Sparrows. How did he get so popular in two years?

4. Why would Howland choose to be a Septon, a priest of a religion he does not believe in?

[Lady Woodland]

1. Howland has Jojen's eyes, I believe.

2. Howland looks like a crannogmen since the squires correctly identified him as one and bullied him. The HS does not look like a crannogmen, or otherwise Septon Luceon would have identified him as one. Remember, Septon Luceon is a Frey, and Freys are the archenemies of crannogmen.

3. Howland is utterly adored by the Sparrows. How did he get so popular in two years?

4. Why would Howland choose to be a Septon, a priest of a religion he does not believe in?

1. Howland has eyes as brown as mud, Jojen has eyes as green as moss.

2. Howland is small - IIRC that was why the squires picked on him & bullied him. I'm pretty sure the Frey's & the Reeds don't get together much so why would they recognise him - they live on opposite sides of Westeros, Howland has not been seen in 16 years so that would be unlikely.

3. Religious fervour does that, it would not be unlikely at all.

4. This was answered in the early posts, but basically he's pretending, it's a ruse. He also spent some of the Winter prior to RR at the Isle of Faces with the Green Men, we believe they are a different order so it's possible he might be interested in religion in general & know more about all the religions of Planetos than we are aware.

[Lady Woodland]

King in Yellow - this is strange. When you said The Lioness and the Frog, I immediately thought of an old fairy tale, not Cersei's quote from the book.

A Fairy Lioness (the "bad guy" in the story - a woman in lion's furs) imprisons a Queen in a cave. The Queen rescues a frog from a raven, and the frog tells the Queen all the creatures in the cave used to be human, and that the frog itself was half-fairy. The Queen has a daughter, the Princess, while imprisoned.

A bunch of other stuff happens and the Queen and Princess escape from the cave.

In the end, the frog helps the royal family free a Prince from inside a dragon by giving the Princess' betrothed a magical three-headed horse.

- I need to find that online and post a link for the whole thing. It may or may not be relevant to the discussion.

Pobeb, I'd like to hear the rest of your theory on this re: the judges

This parallel sounds interesting WP I hope you find a link to the story, GRRM is well known for borrowing from authors he admires.

[three-eyed monkey]

Game of Thrones.

1. Jojen's eyes turned green when he had Greywater fever and was given the gift of green dreams. Howland does not have green dreams, according to Meera. If you wish to cite where it is said that Howland has Jojen's eyes, then I will accept this point.

2. What does a Crannogmen look like? (Beyond being small like the High Sparrow.) At Harrenhal, Howland was dressed like Meera, frog spear and all. Now, he is dressed like a wandering Septon.

3. When Brienne met the sparrow on her way to Duskendale, his following was relatively small, probably less than a hundred, an that is a good distance from the Neck. The sparrow's following snowballed, regardless of whether he is Howland or not. So how did a little wandering Septon's following grow so large between meeting Brienne and taking control of the Faith?

4. No one is saying he converted. He chose to be a Septon to infiltrate the Faith, just as Jon chose to be a turncloak to infiltrate the freefolk, or Varys chose to be a servant of the Lannisters, a dynasty he does not believe in and in fact wants to destroy.

[Game Of Thrones]

Game of Thrones.

3. When Brienne met the sparrow on her way to Duskendale, his following was relatively small, probably less than a hundred, an that is a good distance from the Neck. The sparrow's following snowballed, regardless of whether he is Howland or not. So how did a little wandering Septon's following grow so large between meeting Brienne and taking control of the Faith?

That was one flock of Sparrows among thousands of flocks. So my question still applies.

[three-eyed monkey]

That was one flock of Sparrows among thousands of flocks. So my question still applies.

So how did a wandering Septon grow so popular so quickly? Twitter?

[Game Of Thrones]

So how did a wandering Septon grow so popular so quickly? Twitter?

That's my point.

[WeaselPie]

Here's a link to that fairy tale. Translated from an old French fairy tale and published in a collection in 1906 called The Orange Fairy Book by Andrew Lang, a noted Scottish poet and scholar of mythology and folklore, history etc. He's still an important figure, the collection wasn't a one off by an obscure author, so I'd deign to say anyone interested in researching for a fantasy series would have run across many of his works. There seems to be hundreds of them in several related fields.

In fact:

The Andrew Lang Lecture series is held at the University of St. Andrews. The lectures are named after Andrew Lang. The most famous lecture in this series is that given by J. R. R. Tolkien in March 1939, entitled 'Fairy Stories', but published subsequently as 'On Fairy-Stories'.

Running out, so I don't have time to read it all properly.

Frog and Lion Fairy

On a quick read, there is a lot there. Not much may be relevant to this topic, but an interesting read.

A magical frog owes a debt to the woman who saved him. He struggles and plans for years to compel the King to confront the Lioness. He does this with a retinue of disguised creatures. The King himself struggles, but a Dragon offers to help but double crosses them. The frog provides a three headed horse to aid against the dragon. The dragon is killed and a Prince inside is freed.

[RedShirt47]

I can see how the plan developed. Howland sitting there in the North avoiding all the trouble at Winterfell and the Wall says to himself:
"I'm going to head south and pretend to be a Septon. This is the best possible use of my resources and time."
"I know all about being a septon from my war days down south. And I know all about the plight of the small-folk down there."
"Surely thousands will flock to me as I'm such a likeable outgoing charismatic guy."
"Then I march to King's Landing, surely by the time I get there some crazy Lannister will have killed the High Septon and I'll be able to fill that role easily. Once there I can help the North by putting some noble ladies on trial."
"This plan is so cunning you can pin a tail on it and call it a Weasel."
"Can't fail."


Sorry :) sometimes I get a little facetious...

[Antler's Fury]

It's so silly to continue denying the plausibility of this theory - theres just such an overwhelming abundance of textual evidence.

The only thing that is silly is the theory itself. As I've pointed out several times already, not only would Howland Reed's purposes not be served by infiltrating the Faith, he's also doing an awful job damaging the Lannister government, and doing so against the wishes of the family he's supposedly trying to avenge. There is an overwhelming abundance of textual evidence against this theory.

[three-eyed monkey]

That's my point.

I'm sorry, but I don't get your point. I'm asking you how you think the Sparrow got so popular, even if he is just a wandering Septon like Meribald?

If I were to answer this question then I would say that there are a lot of pissed off people in the war torn riverlands, who have had their homes and septs plundered and destroyed because the nobles and crown have been playing their game of thrones, and who are primed to direct their wrath at King's Landing, the crown, and the hierarchy or the Faith who have been idly standing by and doing nothing. The sparrow, regardless of who he might be, has emerged to rally and direct that rage, and so his following has quickly grown.

This stands true, whether the Sparrow is Howland or not. So you can't really say that this is plausible if the Sparrow is some hither to unheard of wandering Septon, but implausible if it is someone pretending to be a wandering Septon. Meribald has being doing the circuit for twenty years and is probably much loved by the smallfolk, but no one is rallying to him because he is doing nothing about it. The sparrow has gained support because he is doing something about it. As Lady Woodland said above, that's religious fervour for you. It has nothing to do with the Sparrow's true identity.

[ViserionsFire]

There is Bolton at Winterfell, many northern lords are locked inside Twins, Moat Cailin is under Bolton's control as well...If Howland's business was to gather religious fanatics (weapon which can horribly backfire if he happens to die), imprison Cersei, shave all her hair and force her to a naked walk (without being sure she ends up dead or without power), he and Maege will lose the credit I have for them.....

I may be wrong, but didn't the mistress of Tywin's father give orders and decisions at Casterly Rock on his behalf. Isn't that the reason that after Tytos died, Tywin had her stripped and marched through the streets as judgement for this women who presumed to rule Casterly Rock. That judgement was within the lifetime of many currently living in Westeros and wouldn't have been forgotten as something of ancient history. The HS considers Cersei responsible for Robert's death as well as her longtime relationship with her brother that has put their children on the Iron Throne. Cersei's manipulation to rule Westeros seems very much like what her grandfather's mistress did 35 years prior. The HS may have thought that Cersei's fathers judgement would have been appropriate for her.

[Antler's Fury]

I may be wrong, but didn't the mistress of Tywin's father give orders and decisions at Casterly Rock on his behalf. Isn't that the reason that after Tytos died, Tywin had her stripped and marched through the streets as judgement for this women who presumed to rule Casterly Rock. That judgement was within the lifetime of many currently living in Westeros and wouldn't have been forgotten as something of ancient history. The HS considers Cersei responsible for Robert's death as well as her longtime relationship with her brother that has put their children on the Iron Throne. Cersei's manipulation to rule Westeros seems very much like what her grandfather's mistress did 35 years prior. The HS may have thought that Cersei's fathers judgement would have been appropriate for her.

This makes sense if the HS is in fact a religious reformer dedicated to punishing lawbreakers and sinners. It makes no sense if he is Howland Reed, because Howland Reed would be concerned about the Boltons, Freys, and Ironborn plaguing the North, not waste time in the South empowering an order of religious fanatics who hate all other religions, including his own.

[pobeb]

The only thing that is silly is the theory itself. As I've pointed out several times already, not only would Howland Reed's purposes not be served by infiltrating the Faith, he's also doing an awful job damaging the Lannister government, and doing so against the wishes of the family he's supposedly trying to avenge. There is an overwhelming abundance of textual evidence against this theory.

Which Houses conspired in the Red Wedding?

Frey, Bolton, and Lannister.

You keep asserting that Howland is needed against the aforementioned two. Why? They're already being taken care of.

The northmen are about to collapse on the Boltons (read Theon WoW chapter)

Stoneheart and the BwB are going to handle the Freys.

And who is handling the Lannisters? This small, muddy-eyed, High Septon and his band of suspicious followers.

The Red Wedding conspiritors are being assualted on all fronts by respective parties of the GNC.

Furthermore, I can't see why the she-bear septa similarities don't convince you. I've highlighted them in the text several times. You can claim that the similarities are a coincidence, but you cannot deny that there ARE objective similarities.

I mean, Hotah's recollection of the bears dancing down the Sinner's Steps to the sound of ringing bells, and Cersei being led down the hill by these she-bear-like septas, ringing bells and calling Cersei a sinner, really does nothing for you?

[Ser Hodor Hodor of Hodor]

The only thing that is silly is the theory itself. As I've pointed out several times already, not only would Howland Reed's purposes not be served by infiltrating the Faith, he's also doing an awful job damaging the Lannister government, and doing so against the wishes of the family he's supposedly trying to avenge. There is an overwhelming abundance of textual evidence against this theory.

why do people always say that there is textual evidence against this theory, but never quote it? i haven't seen one post here that presented evidence against this theory and isn't disproved within the next two posts.

funny that you say it wouldn't serve his purposes. have you already read twow or do you have access to chapters we don't know? because i don't understand how you possibly could know what "his purposes" are. we have absolutely no textual evidence at all for what "his purposes".might be. he didn't even appear (at least not as howland reed) so far and all we know about him are a few very vague informations given by his family and friends (in a story told by unreliable narrators those are the most unreliable). and those informations are not even about any specific deeds he is going to do.

this is actually the best thing about this theory, instead of assuming to know someones endgame and building a theory around that this theory is based on hints given in the text.

AND bringing trouble to KL is the best way to serve the north! boltons and freys rely on the lannisters. without backing from KL all northeners and riverlanders are very likely to call for an open rebellion against their current lords and neither bolton nor frey are strong enough to hold their positions by force. and any future king who is not a lannister would have a good chance of making peace with the north and the riverlands only by putting starks and tullys back into their positions. i doubt the northeners are willing to go for a long war during winter just to be independent. and let's be honest, what does independence really mean in this world? the king has little influence on his lords, they do not send armies if they don't want and even keep their own laws to a certain point (like dorne with its own laws on inheritage). so basically indpendence means that a lord can call himself king and wear a crown, but most things do not change.

[WildBlood]

I like this theory. THe only thing going against it is that HR worships the old gods, but I see no reason why he wouldn't take a tactical opportunity to infiltrate KL and usher in the real King.

[WildBlood]

So how did a wandering Septon grow so popular so quickly? Twitter?

lol @TheRealHighSparrow