Howland Reed = High Septon?

[pobeb]

I absolutely love this theory. It weaves such an elaborate sub-plot under the surface of what we initially see on the first read-through.

I'm wondering, are there any other instances where a character is referred to having both "eyes as brown as mud" and feet that are "bare and black, gnarled and hard as tree roots." These descriptions, paired, seem to be a pretty definitive nod at Howland. Along with him being a small man, of course.

I went back over the "Knight of the Laughing Tree" story that Meera tells Bran. I noticed some things which seem to tie in with the High Septon's personality.

We know Howland isn't very strong because he was jumped by a trio of squires who were younger than him; squires who were later thrashed by Lyanna. Afterwards, Lyanna invites Howland to join her, her family, and the rest of the nobles during the feast at Harrenhal. During the feast, Howland spies the squires who wronged him, but becomes sad because he knows he lacks the strength to exact his vengeance - thus, the prayer.

This parallels the High Septon - a small man who has made it his mission to protect the weak, and like Lyanna, welcomes the weak to join him. Also, I noticed this:

The High Septon tried to seize her, but he was some old sparrow and she was a lioness of the Rock. She pushed him aside and burst through the door...

Cersei, AFoC

It makes sense that Howland couldn't stop Cersei, as arrogant youth has certainly trumped him before (3 squires)

Aside from the parallels, there is the potential for what may be a massive conspiracy in the subtext. If the GNC is true (and I'm inclined to believe it is), then the wheels are turning for the Northmen to setup the stage for King Jon. With this understanding, Howland being the GNC agent in the south makes a lot of sense, given that Howland is probably the last living human who knows Jon's true lineage.

[pobeb]

Whoa, wait a minute:

“Poor fellows,” said a big man with an axe. Despite the chill of the autumnal wood, he was shirtless, and on his breast was carved a seven-pointed star. Andal warriors had carved such stars in their flesh when first they crossed the narrow sea to overwhelm the kingdoms of the First Men.

“We are marching to the city,” said a tall woman in the traces of the wayn, “to bring these holy bones to Blessed Baelor, and seek succor and protection from the king.”

“Join us, friends,” urged a spare small man in a threadbare septon’s robe, who wore a crystal on a thong about his neck. “Westeros has need of every sword.”

Brienne, AFoC

Could these three be Galbart, Maege, and Howland? Shirtless despite the southern chill? Hmm...

*continues digging*

The only 3 who speak to Brienne's party are these 3, and Galbart, Maege, and Howland are all the leaders of their respective Houses - leaders generally speak for their company.

*edit* The tall woman cannot be Maege. This is most likely Jorelle or Lyra. Interestingly, it would still fit that the 3 who address Brienne's company represent the 3 northern Houses - Glover, Mormont, Reed

[pobeb]

On further examination, I'm thinking that the 3 septas who tend to Cersei are, in fact, Maege and her daughters - Lyra and Jorelle.

Catelyn wondered if Lady Maege had reached the Neck as yet. She had taken her other daughters with her...

From Alysane:

Lyra and Jory are with our mother.

So, I think it's safe to assume that wherever Maege is, her daughters are most likely with her.

Let's look at some descriptions of the She-Bears:

(Dacey) was tall and lean, (Maege) short and stout

Short, chunky, muscular, (Alysane) had big thighs, big breasts, and big hands ridged with callus.

Now, the septas:

Septa Unella was big-boned and mannish, with callused hands and homely, scowling features... a huge ugly woman... Unella was looming over her

Septa Scolera was thick-waisted and short, with heavy breasts, olive skin, and a sour smell to her, like milk on the verge of going
bad.

Septa Moelle had stiff white hair and small mean eyes perpetually crinkled in suspicion, peering out of a wrinkled face as sharp as the blade of an axe.

A face as sharp as the blade of an axe? Hmm...

“There’s a carving on our gate,” said Dacey. “A woman in a bearskin, with a child in one arm suckling at her breast. In the other hand she holds a battleaxe.

Cersei reflects of the septas:

none of them would speak with her or answer any of her questions.

Asha thinks of Alysane:

(Justin) made for better company than the taciturn She-Bear

Interestingly, we see 3 different women held captive at various points in the story:

-Catelyn

-Asha

-Cersei

In Catelyn's case, she is accompanied by the She-Bears in her captivity. In Asha's case, she is accompanied by a She-Bear in her captivity. In Cersei's case... Starting to see the pattern?

Maege, Jorelle, and Lyra have been glaringly absent since Robb dispatched them. These 3 women go missing, and 3 specific women show up with the High Septon, with suspiciously similar looks to the aforementioned She-Bear traits. Why aren't 2 septas taking care of Cersei? Why not 4, or even 5? Why specifically 3?

If Howland isn't the High Septon, than this would be a GIGANTIC coincidence. But, if Howland is in fact the High Septon, well... don't things start to just fall into place? ;)

p.s. I wasn't able to find anything more on the big shirtless guy (Galbart). Can anyone else find a reference to that same fellow around King's Landing?

[HoboJed]

I love the HR = HS theory, but pobeb, you may be stretching this too far. Whilst there are similarities in the descriptions of the she-bears and the septas, there are also some important differences.

Septa Scolera has olive skin. Being from the far North, it's unlikely any of the she-bears have olive skin. Septa Moelle is described as being very old.

[pobeb]

I love the HR = HS theory, but pobeb, you may be stretching this too far. Whilst there are similarities in the descriptions of the she-bears and the septas, there are also some important differences.

Septa Scolera has olive skin. Being from the far North, it's unlikely any of the she-bears have olive skin. Septa Moelle is described as being very old.

I don't see why one of the She-Bears couldn't have olive skin. A ) We don't have any info on Jorelle or Lyra, and B ) We don't know if all 5 She-Bears were fathered by the same man. For instance, if some Braavosi pirate came trading to the Bear Island, Maege could have taken him in and had Jory/Lyra with him. Hence, the olive skin. I understand this is purely speculative, but the point is, we don't know enough about Lyra/Jory to say for certain that they couldn't be or look a certain way. However, we do know enough about She-Bears to deduce that the septas have some pretty stark similarities with them. Similarities that stand despite one having "olive skin".

And you're right, Septa Moelle is very old, which is why she is Maege. I don't see the important difference there.

If there's one thing I haven't connected yet, it's which septa is Jory and which is Lyra.

If I had to guess, I'd say Jory is the youngest of the two, so probably Unella. Lyra would be Scolera, and obviously Moelle is Maege. This is why Unella is the more forceful and headstrong of the 3, as the story carries a particular pattern of youth being somewhat brash. Remember, Unella is the one walking ahead of both Moelle and Scolera as they escort Cersei to see the High Septon.

If you love this theory, is it so far-fetched that Howland brough Galbart and Maege with him? Wouldn't that make sense, and look even stronger when you note how the Septa's are described and the fact that there are 3 of them?

Don't you find it strange that there's this big guy in Howland's group, stalking around with an axe and no shirt, despite the southern chill? Perhaps unaffected as he's a northman?

[Hippocras]

I would rank this theory alongside Arthur Dayne being alive as theories people cling to just because they want to believe it in spite of all evidence to the contrary.

We all want to meet Howland Reed and we are all intrigued by the High Sparrow. But the profiles do not match in ANY way. There is absolutely nothing to commend the theory beyond the fact that we are all anxious to know more about both of these characters so putting them together relieves boredom and makes us think we know something more than we do.

[pobeb]

^ I'm presenting a different angle to the argument. You're repeating your same argument.

You can downplay the similarities between the High Septon and the Reeds all you want:

- The small stature

- Being thin as a broom handle

- Eyes as brown as mud

- Feet that look like tree roots

- Hair tied back in a knot

- Lack of physical strength

But to downplay the 3 Septas and 3 She-Bears similarities? Come on, I even highlighted them for you! :rolleyes:

[Hippocras]

It is simple. There is nothing to argue because the theory is beyond ridiculous. There IS NO EVIDENCE AT ALL TO SUPPORT THIS THEORY OR JUSTIFY CONTINUING TO REVIVE THIS THREAD.

The Reeds we know have GREEN eyes. Their feet are nothing special. The high Sparrow has the same feet as any other wandering Septon and they look the way they do from walking on rough roads barefoot for years.

Being small is NOT evidence.

Littlefinger is also small. I would be more inclined to believe the HS is Littlefinger's father.

[pobeb]

There IS NO EVIDENCE AT ALL TO SUPPORT THIS THEORY

You're just being stubborn now. There's plenty of evidence. It's well cited in the OP, and I elaborated on several of the key similarities. Plus, there are the She-Bear-like septas, who are coincidentally also a group of 3.

Then there's the moment when Cersei encounters this:

a gaggle of armed men stepped out to block the doors. They wore mail and boiled leather, with here and there a bit of dinted plate. Some had spears and some had longswords. More favored axes...

Where, exactly, are these men from? They aren't just armed with axes (which, correct me if I'm wrong, are popular among the Glovers and northerners alike), but they're armored in mail and leather. Doesn't any of this seem odd to you? Galbart and Maege take a group of their respective soldiers to Howland, disappear, and afterwards this suspicous group suddenly appears in King's Landing? They're doing things radically different from the last several High Septons. They're armed with axes and armored with mail and leather. They have 3 specific septas who are described similarly to the She-Bears in a way no other group of women are described. There's a man in their company walking around shirtless despite the "chill" in the forest that Brienne makes note of. They're doing practically everything they can to wrestle control of the realm from Cersei, by exposing and humiliating her. The High Septon's last, and most important question to Cersei is in regards to a truth that ended up killing Ned.

Honestly, none of this speaks to you?

The Reeds we know have GREEN eyes

And Jon has brown eyes. As such, does this mean Rhaegar isn't his father? Robb and Sansa have blue eyes, does this mean Ned isn't their father because he has grey eyes? Come on, that is a TERRIBLE argument :rolleyes:

[Hippocras]

None of what people are pretending is evidence actually qualifies in any way shape or form as real evidence.

All of the real evidence, on the other hand, refutes the proposal.

Real:

Reeds are the closest Westerosi culture to CotF. They follow the Old Gods. They are NOT Andals. The Faith of the Seven is the religion of Andals. Therefore it is RIDICULOUS to believe Lord Reed would spend more than a decade wandering around spreading the faith of the seven barefoot instead of taking care of his own lands and people, and adhering to the religion he actually follows.

Real:

Meera and Jojen both have green eyes. HS does not. If we were meant to know them eventually to be related, GRRM would have hinted at it by at least giving the Reeds the same eye colour as the HS.

Real:

The HS is described using language that tells us he is an old man. If GRRM wanted us to believe anything other than that the HS is of an advanced age, he would not have described him as he did. Howland Reed is NOT an old man. Nor has he led a hard life. When we finally meet him, he will not be grey, and his face will not be heavily lined.

I have no doubt we will eventually meet Howland Reed. The High Sparrow is not him.

[pobeb]

*sigh*

Real:
Meera and Jojen both have green eyes. HS does not. If we were meant to know them eventually to be related, GRRM would have hinted at it by at least giving the Reeds the same eye colour as the HS.

You're right, that is real... a real-ly bad argument. Ned has grey eyes and Robb and Sansa have blue eyes. By your logic, Ned can't be their father because "GRRM would have hinted at it by at least giving the Starks the same eye color". :shocked:

Same goes for Jon and Rhaegar. Eye color being used as the basis to argue parentage is too often used on these boards. It's such a flawed position to take.

Real:
Reeds are the closest Westerosi culture to CotF. They follow the Old Gods. They are NOT Andals. The Faith of the Seven is the religion of Andals. Therefore it is RIDICULOUS to believe Lord Reed would spend more than a decade wandering around spreading the faith of the seven barefoot instead of taking care of his own lands and people, and adhering to the religion he actually follows.

You're right. There hasn't been one instance in this story where a person has pretended to be someone they weren't.... :rolleyes:

-Jon (Turncloak)

-Jaqen (Pate)

-Barristan (Whitebeard)

-Arya (Mercy)

-Theon (Reek)

-Ramsay (Reek)

-Tyrion (Hugor)

-Sansa (Alayne)

-Meero (Bald Assassin)

-Sandor (Grave Digger)

-Sand Snakes (Septa/Silent Sister)

-Sarella (Alleras)

-Quentyn (Frog)

-Mance (Abel)

-Dany (Queen of Meereen)

-Freys (Friends)

-Varys (Various people)

-Jon Connington (Griff)

-Aegon (Young Griff)

Need I go on?

Think about it. I mean, really think about your argument:

Howland can't be the High Septon because he's followed the Old Gods his whole life?

That's like saying:

Sarella can't be Alleras because she's been a girl her whole life.

"It was said that they were a cowardly people who fought with poisoned weapons and preferred to hide from foes rather than face them in open battle"

I'm guessing you overlooked this part of the OP?

Just because Howland is a follower of the Old Gods, doesn't mean he isn't pretending to follow the Seven. In fact, isn't that the basis of the OP's argument? That Howland is in disguise? Kind of hard to disguise yourself as the High Septon if you're brandishing weirwood branches and making blood sacrifices in the godswood.

Also, where are you gathering that Howland must have wandered for 10yrs learning the faith? You understand now that the High Septon ruse is simply just an act, right?

Real:
The HS is described using language that tells us he is an old man. If GRRM wanted us to believe anything other than that the HS is of an advanced age, he would not have described him as he did. Howland Reed is NOT an old man. Nor has he led a hard life. When we finally meet him, he will not be grey, and his face will not be heavily lined.

Yes, the High Septon looks like an old man. He does have grey hair and his beard is mixed with grey and brown...

And your point is?

Find me the passage that definitively expresses Howland's actual age as contradictary to the High Septon's age, and I'll relent. Unfortunately, that passage doesn't exist. We're never explicitly told how old Howland is. Sure, we can speculate, like how 15yrs ago he was beaten up by 15yr olds who he notes are taller than him despite being much younger. But, that's really all we can do: Speculate his age. To say, he's "definitely old" or "definitely not old" is flawed.

[Jam On Toast]

Like the theory. Either way I am looking forward to meeting Howland.

[pobeb]

The northmen are not fond of Duskendale; they were deceived by Roose and lost a third of their footmen there.

(Robb) shook his head, bewildered. “A third of my foot, lost for Duskendale?”

Interestingly, some of the Sparrows become unreasonably upset with Ser Illifer when he insists on heading to Duskendale.

“We are bound for Duskendale,” Ser Illifer said flatly.

One of the begging brothers spat... “You are false knights,” said the big man with the star carved on his chest. Several others brandished their cudgels.

This is the same guy walking around shirtless despite the "chill" Brienne describes in the woods. Remember, not only was Galbart's brother held captive in Duskendale, but many other Glover men were most likely slain that day.

Also:

“No,” said the High Septon.

It was only a word, one little word, but to Cersei it felt like a splash of icy water in the face.

The High Septon's word feels like a splash of ice water to Cersei. Interesting, seeing how often we see ice or the cold associated with the North or northmen.

Later, Cersei is escorted on her atonement by a group of Warrior's Sons.

And who is their captain?

“Perhaps Your Grace will recall me. I am Ser Theodan the True"

And who is Theodan the True?

I am Ser Theodan the True, formerly Ser Theodan Wells.

House Wells, of the North.

Boom, yet another northerner.

Maybe Cersei being confined to the dark and cold, isn't just a coincidence after all. Cold. Dark. Seems befitting a hostile Northern presence, wouldn't you say?

[Ser Eric]

Just wanted to say, excellent points from Pobeb. I like the idea of Maege, Gallabart, HOwland doing something.

None of it might be true of course but as far as theories go, this is one of the more believable theories on this forum. "The Olive skin" is a pretty good point against the theory but as you rightly said we don't know enough about the Mormonts to conclude anything.

One of the more believable theories and one that is backed up by pieces of evidence unlike many others which are just flat out conjecture.

[Ziriath]

I hate this theory with my whole heart.

Because Cersei wasn't punished for ruining many lives, sending people to Qyburn, selling people to slavers (rumoured) and killing Robert's bastards. What she got, was a punishment for having sex with some men, after Robert's death. I wanted Cersei to meet a karmic revenge (close meeting with a spiked mace), but I was not happy for this at all. It was her fault though, as she gave more power to Faith.

Somehow I think if HR in disguise wanted to get rid of Cersei, he would make sure she will be dead and as he is a honorable man for sure, he will also throw all her REAL guilt in her face before... She still has a good chance of winning the trial. Even more I hate the subsequent theory of lady Mormont = Septa Unella.I think she (and Aly) is the very last woman in Westeros to punish an other woman for having sex outside marriage.....

[Hippocras]

I hate this theory with my whole heart.

Because Cersei wasn't punished for ruining many lives, sending people to Qyburn, selling people to slavers (rumoured) and killing Robert's bastards. What she got, was a punishment for having sex with some men, after Robert's death. I wanted Cersei to meet a karmic revenge (close meeting with a spiked mace), but I was not happy for this at all. It was her fault though, as she gave more power to Faith.

Somehow I think if HR in disguise wanted to get rid of Cersei, he would make sure she will be dead and as he is a honorable man for sure, he will also throw all her REAL guilt in her face before... She still has a good chance of winning the trial. Even more I hate the subsequent theory of lady Mormont = Septa Unella.I think she (and Aly) is the very last woman in Westeros to punish an other woman for having sex outside marriage.....

Another good point. Howland Reed would punish Cersei for her real crimes, not her sex life.

[Ziriath]

Also I think the Mormonts, as the northernmost and most isolated westerosi northmen, must have a thick accent Cersei would at least notice, if not recognize as northern...I'd say Howland would have an accent as well, likely with some dialect words unknown to southeners.

And doesn't Maege have grey hair, as her brother and Bran noticed? Not white, and I do not think the colour would change much in two, or so, years in a case of 50+ person. And why the hell would Galbart Glover carve a seven-pointed star into his chest- just for the sake of a mummer's farce? Come oooon......

The similarities between girls we have never read a description of and some bitter septas, are pulled out of ass, sorry for my language.

[forestchilde]

I think most of the posters in favor of this theory are arguing that it could be true, not that it must be. Those arguing against it seem to have a visceral dislike (Paper Waver excepted) of the theory, offering up (IMHO) somewhat weak arguments against it. The crannogmen wouldn't take an army to the North; any muster of knights would slice through them like butter. The object of Howland's deceit isn't to place Jon Targaryen on the throne, it's for revenge, revenge against Cersei (who called Ned a traitor and deserving of execution to the HS's face) and all the Lannister men. Not just to kill her, but to humiliate her first. Howland didn't give up too much by forgiving the debt, he didn't care about the debt, and knew Cersei wouldn't pay it anyway. Why not bless little Tommen if you're going to prove he's fruit of incest later? You get a legitimized army inside Kings Landing that is a real threat. As I've said before, the appearance arguments mean little, Howland could surely make himself look a little older if necessary. Oh, and....

"His closely trimmed beard was shot with white, making him look older than his thirty-five years."

First chapter, GOT, Bran describing NED STARK.

[JonSnow4President]

I think most of the posters in favor of this theory are arguing that it could be true, not that it must be. Those arguing against it seem to have a visceral dislike (Paper Waver excepted) of the theory, offering up (IMHO) somewhat weak arguments against it. The crannogmen wouldn't take an army to the North; any muster of knights would slice through them like butter. The object of Howland's deceit isn't to place Jon Targaryen on the throne, it's for revenge, revenge against Cersei (who called Ned a traitor and deserving of execution to the HS's face) and all the Lannister men. Not just to kill her, but to humiliate her first. Howland didn't give up too much by forgiving the debt, he didn't care about the debt, and knew Cersei wouldn't pay it anyway. Why not bless little Tommen if you're going to prove he's fruit of incest later? You get a legitimized army inside Kings Landing that is a real threat. As I've said before, the appearance arguments mean little, Howland could surely make himself look a little older if necessary. Oh, and....

"His closely trimmed beard was shot with white, making him look older than his thirty-five years."

First chapter, GOT, Bran describing NED STARK.

Just because someone COULD be something doesn't mean it should be considered. Every noble child could be Rhaegar's bastard in the absence of evidence, but that doesn't mean we should accept that anyone is a Targ bastard/descendant in the absence of the supporting evidence.

There is LITERALLY NO EVIDENCE with this theory. Only motive. Motive doesn't prove anything.

[Hippocras]

Just because someone COULD be something doesn't mean it should be considered. Every noble child could be Rhaegar's bastard in the absence of evidence, but that doesn't mean we should accept that anyone is a Targ bastard/descendant in the absence of the supporting evidence.

There is LITERALLY NO EVIDENCE with this theory. Only motive. Motive doesn't prove anything.

IMO there isn't even motive.

There is NOTHING in what we know of Howland Reed to suggest he is revenge driven. He likely has a long game, but that long game is NOT about petty revenge.