GrumpkinsAndStarks Posted March 15, 2014 Share Posted March 15, 2014 This began as a thread about whether or not Theon should be forgiven and ended up essentially here. Was Theon a ward or prisoner? Did he love the Starks? Did they love him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 Theon was a ward and a prisoner both. He did love the Starks, and the Starks loved him back. Especially Robb. Furthermore, Theon wanted/expected to turn him being the de-facto brother of Robb into being his brother-in-law. So yes, it was definitely betrayal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Marquis de Leech Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 The question really boils down to whether one's primary duty is to one's friends or one's family. Theon chose the latter, and in both a feudal society and modern society, his choice would be considered the normal one. That his mindset has been somewhat screwed up by being ripped away from his family aged 10, followed by a sort of Stockholm Syndrome relationship with the Starks (i.e. wanting to be one, but never getting accepted) is a tragic complication. But again, family is family. Theon is a Greyjoy, not a Stark, and as such, there was no betrayal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 The question really boils down to whether one's primary duty is to one's friends or one's family. Theon chose the latter, and in both a feudal society and modern society, his choice would be considered the normal one. That his mindset has been somewhat screwed up by being ripped away from his family aged 10, followed by a sort of Stockholm Syndrome relationship with the Starks (i.e. wanting to be one, but never getting accepted) is a tragic complication. But again, family is family. Theon is a Greyjoy, not a Stark, and as such, there was no betrayal. Theon was stuck between a rock and a hard place. it would have been betrayal either way. Unless he took the Black, joined the Citadel or the Faith. Doesn't change the fact that it was betrayal. And that he went the extra mile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Marquis de Leech Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 It's only betrayal if he owed duties to the Starks. Which he didn't: he's not a Stark, He certainly feels guilt about going against Robb, but that is Stockholm Syndrome at work. A hostage who starts sympathising with their captor, only to then find themselves having to work against their captor, is not betraying anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpkinsAndStarks Posted March 16, 2014 Author Share Posted March 16, 2014 But after Robb freed Theon, he chose to stay. He was no longer bound to the Starks, and yet he stayed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turin Turambar1 Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 It's only betrayal if he owed duties to the Starks. Which he didn't: he's not a Stark, He certainly feels guilt about going against Robb, but that is Stockholm Syndrome at work. A hostage who starts sympathising with their captor, only to then find themselves having to work against their captor, is not betraying anyone. He did betrayed them , because they made a deal to fight together against the Lannisters . As for hostage/ward thing he was treated very nice , just look how Lannisters ( Sansa ) and Martells ( Myecella ) treat there hostages . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errant Bard Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 He did betray Robb's trust, but Robb's trust was misplaced to begin with, as Catelyn did point to him. He certainly had a greater duty to his family than he did to Robb, no matter what he he could have sworn to Robb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toccs Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 He did betray Robb's trust, but Robb's trust was misplaced to begin with, as Catelyn did point to him. He certainly had a greater duty to his family than he did to Robb, no matter what he he could have sworn to Robb. :agree: Theon never had any reason to hold loyalty to House Stark and it was never expected that he would. The only person he betrayed was Robb and it was personal betrayal of trust nothing more. Theon was stuck between a rock and a hard place. it would have been betrayal either way. Unless he took the Black, joined the Citadel or the Faith. Doesn't change the fact that it was betrayal. And that he went the extra mile. He definitely did go the extra mile with the seizing of Winterfell. But that's down to his immaturity, he still thought as though he was playing a game against Robb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpkinsAndStarks Posted March 17, 2014 Author Share Posted March 17, 2014 Balon chose Theon's ward-ship at WF over his own death. Is there any evidence of Balon visiting Theon while he was a ward at WF? Is it not true that Balon was planning on raiding the shore of the North and, eventually, capturing WF while Theon was still a "hostage" of the Starks, essentially forfeiting Theon's life for plunder? There is no reason to believe he owed loyalty to his family any more or less than he owed the Starks. Balon certainly didn't give a rats ass about him. This idea that Theon was somehow misguided in, at first, aligning himself with Robb instead of his family after Robb freed him is nothing short of crazy. The IB are shit, especially Balon. Theon's mother was a nut, cooped up in a tower all day, his uncles are either religious fanatics, megalomaniac's or wife killers, his brothers are dead and his sister only mocked him after their reunion, although Asha showed she cared for him in ADwD. His only chance at companionship and love was with the Starks, and he knew it. "Why do you love the Starks?" "I..." Theon put a gloved hand against a pillar. "I... wanted to be one of them...""My lady, why do you hate the Starks?"She studied him. "For the same reason you love them."Theon stumbled. "Love them? I never... I took this castle from them, my lady. I had... had Bran and Rickon put to death, mounted their heads on spikes, I...""...rode south with Robb Stark, fought beside him at the Whispering Wood and Riverrun, returned to the Iron Islands as his envoy to treat with your own father "Why do you love the Starks?" "I..." Theon put a gloved hand against a pillar. "I... wanted to be one of them..." At first he denies it. He maintains that he never did and that, for proof, he killed the Stark boys. Ultimately he answers in the affirmative. If this were a case of Stockholm Syndrome wouldn't his answer to "Why did you love the Starks?" be something like, "because they are wonderful and kind or Ned was right to hold me hostage, he was a good man or I was better off with them". But he didn't he answer the question "Why do you love the Starks?" with a deeply personal answer that reflects his own internal conflict and deep seated insecurity. He believes he betrayed them, for sure. He still wears Bran's wolf pin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toccs Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 At first he denies it. He maintains that he never did and that, for proof, he killed the Stark boys. Ultimately he answers in the affirmative. If this were a case of Stockholm Syndrome wouldn't his answer to "Why did you love the Starks?" be something like, "because they are wonderful and kind or Ned was right to hold me hostage, he was a good man or I was better off with them". But he didn't he answer the question "Why do you love the Starks?" with a deeply personal answer that reflects his own internal conflict and deep seated insecurity. He believes he betrayed them, for sure. He still wears Bran's wolf pin. Maybe if this was a cartoon or a flashy action movie, but it's not and Stockholme Syndrome does not work the way you are presenting it. We're told that when Theon first came to Winterfell he kept to himself, and was proud of his Iron Island heritage. That Ned by virtue of being Ned treated him well as a prisoner does not change the fact that he was a prisoner. Likewise, Ned by virtue of being Ned would not hesitate to perform his duty and take Theon's head had he been commanded to do so. Theon was raised kindly and given a place in Winterfell as a form of indoctrination or brain washing. This is never denied, it was in fact Ned's explicit hope that a Stark-ized Theon would come to rule the Iron Islands. The fact that this indoctrination/brain washing was not done maliciously does again not discount the fact that it was done.Theon is definitely an example of Stockholme Syndrome with his answer to Barbrey being a classic example. He has identified with his captors so much that he even dreams about being one of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpkinsAndStarks Posted March 17, 2014 Author Share Posted March 17, 2014 Maybe if this was a cartoon or a flashy action movie, but it's not and Stockholme Syndrome does not work the way you are presenting it. We're told that when Theon first came to Winterfell he kept to himself, and was proud of his Iron Island heritage. That Ned by virtue of being Ned treated him well as a prisoner does not change the fact that he was a prisoner. Likewise, Ned by virtue of being Ned would not hesitate to perform his duty and take Theon's head had he been commanded to do so. Theon was raised kindly and given a place in Winterfell as a form of indoctrination or brain washing. This is never denied, it was in fact Ned's explicit hope that a Stark-ized Theon would come to rule the Iron Islands. The fact that this indoctrination/brain washing was not done maliciously does again not discount the fact that it was done. Theon is definitely an example of Stockholme Syndrome with his answer to Barbrey being a classic example. He has identified with his captors so much that he even dreams about being one of them. Okay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seaworth'sShipmate Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 Whether he betrayed them or not, I bet he really, really regrets not sticking with robb stark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpkinsAndStarks Posted March 18, 2014 Author Share Posted March 18, 2014 Whether he betrayed them or not, I bet he really, really regrets not sticking with robb starkOh he must. I think that's what makes him such a compelling character. He survived. He has to live with all the choices he's made, most of which were pretty reprehensible. He has been reduced to his lowest form and gets to see first hand the consequences of treachery and ambition. Most characters, including the good ones, don't have that burden. Theon Greyjoy is the exception to Cersei's rule about the GoT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seaworth'sShipmate Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 Oh he must. I think that's what makes him such a compelling character. He survived. He has to live with all the choices he's made, most of which were pretty reprehensible. He has been reduced to his lowest form and gets to see first hand the consequences of treachery and ambition. Most characters, including the good ones, don't have that burden. Theon Greyjoy is the exception to Cersei's rule about the GoT. Though he is pretty close to dead, even if King Stannis doesn't decide to kill him. Btw, is he really a eunuch or is that just speculation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpkinsAndStarks Posted March 18, 2014 Author Share Posted March 18, 2014 I don't know why, and I haven't read his WoW chapter, but I suspect Theon will survive, that's his penance. As to the castration, I think it's safe to assume. There are just too many allusions to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baelor Swyft Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 Whether he betrayed 'House Stark' is debatable. Whether he betrayed his best friend, Robb Stark, is not. I'd consider a man betraying his only friend to be a crueler and more accursed wretch than one who betrays a household, so the nature of his relation to House Stark proper is of minor incidence to me. That being said, the fault is largely on Robb for having put Theon in that position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hippocras Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 Theon gave his word.his betrayal was not about who he owed allegiance to, it is about the fact that he was there and helped raise Robb to king in the north, he promised loyalty to him swore his sword to him, and then stabbed him in the back.His family BG is tragic, and yes he was a Greyjoy. But he could have accepted having his dad call him a coward and not betrayed his vow to Robb. Instead he went over the top out of pride to try to win his father's approval. There is no question it was betrayal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Marquis de Leech Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 Theon gave his word.his betrayal was not about who he owed allegiance to, it is about the fact that he was there and helped raise Robb to king in the north, he promised loyalty to him swore his sword to him, and then stabbed him in the back. Theon gave his word in the TV show, not the book. And an oath sworn as a captive is no oath at all. (Really, Theon owed the Starks what Sansa owes the Lannisters. Nothing. But the Starks are the "good guys", so it's OMG Betrayal!). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hippocras Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 Theon gave his word in the TV show, not the book. And an oath sworn as a captive is no oath at all. (Really, Theon owed the Starks what Sansa owes the Lannisters. Nothing. But the Starks are the "good guys", so it's OMG Betrayal!).Not true. He swore his word to Robb and promised to bring his father's help. He broke his promise. Sansa never promised the Lannisters anything.I have a great deal of sympathy for Theon so you interpretation of my post is frankly bizarre. But sympathy does not make his actions right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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