Did Theon Greyjoy betray House Stark?

[Metopheles]

its possible his son was one of the two he and ramsay killed to pass off as Bran and Rickon...

Ah, right. I got that thing too, but I doubt it. That would be too much, don't you think? Hasn't he suffered enough ?

so eddard stark has 5 children a bastard and a ward. ( he raised 7 children ) might be imporant to the numerology aspect of GRRM.

i think his ward can technically be counted as his " son " because he was raised by wolves and follows the old gods and not the drowned god.

i hope in the winds of winter bran sends a message to he people that Prince Theon is still Lord of Winterfell...

maybe a certain " wolfpack " shows up out of the neck and surrounds him just as his head is about to come off...

Anything to keep my second favorite character alive ;) Good idea though.

Still, if Eddy isn't even man enough to make his claimed bastard a true heir, he would never name the son of the man that invaded his lands, his own.

Only the wolf thing could do something perhaps. As a sign for Stannis

[Hippocras]

1. He broke his word. This is absolute truth and has nothing to do with swearing a vow. I never said he swore a vow. He said he was Robb's friend and ally, then betrayed his trust.

2. He was a hostage, yes, but he was never "under duress". He fought for Robb willingly, and eagerly. No one forced him. He made his promises willingly. No one forced him.

That absolutely counts as betrayal.

[The Marquis de Leech]

I'd just like to echo that there is no evidence of Theon using whores in the books (why pay for what he can get for free?), or even that there are whores in Winterfell at all (with a lack of transients and a puritanical lord it's entirely possible that there aren't any).

Can we also stop making unfounded allegations of kinslaying? The Miller's children were 8 and 6. Theon was 20. The eldest child is right out - an 11-12 year old is not going to sleep with a married woman, while even 13-14 is stretching things, since we know that Theon's first was the wife of Barth the Brewer. For the younger child to be Theon's, not only does he have to impregnate her when the Miller (who presumably has much more regular sex with her) fails, but we're talking a 13-14 year old who sleeps with *multiple* married women. And that's a longshot, even for Theon.

Finally, Theon never promised his father's ships. How could he? They're not his to command. Robb at one point says "if there is war, we will have sore need of his father's fleet" - which reflects more on Robb's naievity than it does Theon.

[Daeron's Black Boots]

I'd just like to echo that there is no evidence of Theon using whores in the books (why pay for what he can get for free?), or even that there are whores in Winterfell at all (with a lack of transients and a puritanical lord it's entirely possible that there aren't any).

Can we also stop making unfounded allegations of kinslaying? The Miller's children were 8 and 6. Theon was 20. The eldest child is right out - an 11-12 year old is not going to sleep with a married woman, while even 13-14 is stretching things, since we know that Theon's first was the wife of Barth the Brewer. For the younger child to be Theon's, not only does he have to impregnate her when the Miller (who presumably has much more regular sex with her) fails, but we're talking a 13-14 year old who sleeps with *multiple* married women. And that's a longshot, even for Theon.

Finally, Theon never promised his father's ships. How could he? They're not his to command. Robb at one point says "if there is war, we will have sore need of his father's fleet" - which reflects more on Robb's naievity than it does Theon.

can you post quotes that show the age of the millers sons?

you must not like the millers sons theory but it actually can be proven true if the right pair of rose colored glasses are put on.

see him placing the bones in the river and pulling out brans pendant, refusing to place the bones in the crypt, and the dream where he is being chased by the " millers sons" as wolves, and when the wife chews of his member in a dream with her snatch. kinda foreshadows that he will be punished by the old gods for this kinslaying with their instrument " Ramsay" but him killing his own son to protect the truth about Bran and Rickon was permitted.

[The Marquis de Leech]

"The miller's boys were of an age with Bran and Rickon..." (ACOK p.592.)

Bran is 8 in ACOK, Rickon is 4 (http://towerofthehand.com/reference/compendiums/appendix_ages.html) - my error on Rickon's age. Still, it would require Theon at 15-16 sleeping with multiple married women, and impregnating her when her husband didn't.

The dream is simply explained by Theon (who is fairly squeamish) feeling guilty about killing innocent children, and the women he'd had a bit of fun with. The dream doesn't differentiate between the elder son (who is clearly not Theon's) with the younger (who might be, if we are into longshot theories) - you'd expect emphasis on the latter if it was kinslaying.

In other words, we are dealing with a longshot theory that is in no way "probable".

[Empire]

Theon betrayed the Starks so hard his dick fell off.

[The Marquis de Leech]

A bit of further evidence. We are told that the Millers Boys are of similar colouring to Bran and Rickon. We know from AGOT that Rickon favours his mother in appearance. Thus the child would appear vaguely Tullyish. We don't know anything about the appearance of the Miller's wife, but if the younger child were Theon's, it doesn't look like him.

[Lee-Sensei]

You are playing a game: You are demanding quotes while unwilling to provide any yourself. If you don't want to provide any fine, but don't demand them from others.

Actually, I have provided quotes. You haven't.

[Daeron's Black Boots]

A bit of further evidence. We are told that the Millers Boys are of similar colouring to Bran and Rickon. We know from AGOT that Rickon favours his mother in appearance. Thus the child would appear vaguely Tullyish. We don't know anything about the appearance of the Miller's wife, but if the younger child were Theon's, it doesn't look like him.

that might be pushing your own beliefs against what the text actually suggests.

to much symbolism for the younger miller son not to be his. kinslaying is important aspect of being a northman. see the song of the winter rose. kinslaying kingslaying

for theon to be a " true " son of winterfell he must be marked by the gods. he sins, he pays for his sins, he tries to make right all the wrongs he committed.

the winds of winter chapter for theon is pretty telling, that either the Bran and Rickon murder false kingslaying ( for true kinslaying miller son murder ) is going to be answered on way or another...

either Stannis and the false lightbringer take off his head on that island or he keeps his head and some crows, ravens, or wolves show up to protect the Lord of Winterfell...

[The Marquis de Leech]

Nonsense. It is quite possible for Theon to be guilty of murder (which he is) without having kinslaying lumped on top of that. There's a prohibition on incest too, but that doesn't mean that the Miller's Wife is Theon's long-lost sister.

Theon feels guilty, and feels haunted about occupying the Stark's ancestral place: he subconsciously knows he's transgressing against thousands of years of history. Simple, and supported by Ockham's Razor.

As for Theon's fate, I think he survive's the series. If Martin wanted to kill him, he'd have done it already - as it is, his survival serves a narrative purpose, and as Tyrion points out "death is final, but life is full of possibilities".

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

can you post quotes that show the age of the millers sons?

you must not like the millers sons theory but it actually can be proven true if the right pair of rose colored glasses are put on.

see him placing the bones in the river and pulling out brans pendant, refusing to place the bones in the crypt, and the dream where he is being chased by the " millers sons" as wolves, and when the wife chews of his member in a dream with her snatch. kinda foreshadows that he will be punished by the old gods for this kinslaying with their instrument " Ramsay" but him killing his own son to protect the truth about Bran and Rickon was permitted.

Whether or not Theon actually fathered the younger miller son and is actually a kinslayer (honestly, no one will ever know), Theon feels guilt about it. And there is certainly a rumor going around Winterfell that he is a kinslayer preceding the Battle of Ice.

Both the hooded man and Mance's spearwives accuse Theon of kinslaying and specifically say they don't mean Bran and Rickon.

“Say it again and I will rip your lying tongue out, kinslayer."

“I have done terrible things ... betrayed my own, turned my cloak, ordered the death of men who trusted me ... but I am no kinslayer."

“Stark’s boys were never brothers to you, aye. We know.”

That was true, but it was not what Theon had meant. They were not my blood, but even so, I never harmed them. The two we killed were just some miller’s sons. Theon did not want to think about their mother. He had known the miller’s wife for years, had even bedded her. Big heavy breasts with wide dark nipples, a sweet mouth, a merry laugh. Joys that I will never taste again.

[Daeron's Black Boots]

Whether or not Theon actually fathered the younger miller son and is actually a kinslayer (honestly, no one will ever know), Theon feels guilt about it. And there is certainly a rumor going around Winterfell that he is a kinslayer preceding the Battle of Ice.

Both the hooded man and Mance's spearwives accuse Theon of kinslaying and specifically say they don't mean Bran and Rickon.

“Say it again and I will rip your lying tongue out, kinslayer."

“I have done terrible things ... betrayed my own, turned my cloak, ordered the death of men who trusted me ... but I am no kinslayer."

“Stark’s boys were never brothers to you, aye. We know.”

That was true, but it was not what Theon had meant. They were not my blood, but even so, I never harmed them. The two we killed were just some miller’s sons. Theon did not want to think about their mother. He had known the miller’s wife for years, had even bedded her. Big heavy breasts with wide dark nipples, a sweet mouth, a merry laugh. Joys that I will never taste again.

actually we do know!

all that quote from ADWD does is reference back the the original dream sequence quote in SOS. ( good catch )

GRRM gives it to the astute reader so they can confirm the theory that he did indeed kinslay when he took their lives.

[The Marquis de Leech]

actually we do know!

all that quote from ADWD does is reference back the the original dream sequence quote in SOS. ( good catch )

GRRM gives it to the astute reader so they can confirm the theory that he did indeed kinslay when he took their lives.

How does that quote do anything other than reinforce the fact that Theon felt guilty? None of those characters would know that Theon didn't kill Bran and Rickon, so are clearly referring to an allegation that he killed what they considered to be his foster brothers.

(And again, there is no differentiation between the elder and younger child).

[Hippocras]

Actually, I have provided quotes. You haven't.

Useless ones that only show Theon was not so respectful of particular whores in particular places.

Find the redhead. And regardless of the redhead, the clothes and jewels alone prove Theon did have money and was not powerless in Winterfell. He clearly had freedom to move around alone in the area and sleep with the miller's wife. Painting him a victim of the Starks is ridiculous. He was treated well. Robb considered him a friend. Then he betrayed Robb.

[Lee-Sensei]

Useless ones that only show Theon was not so respectful of particular whores in particular places.

Find the redhead. And regardless of the redhead, the clothes and jewels alone prove Theon did have money and was not powerless in Winterfell. He clearly had freedom to move around alone in the area and sleep with the miller's wife. Painting him a victim of the Starks is ridiculous. He was treated well. Robb considered him a friend. Then he betrayed Robb.

1) You say it's useless and yet you have still failed to show me the quote that proves that Theon likes whores even though he expresses dislike bordering on hatred for them and says that he'd beat his squire if he so much as found him near one. If you're so sure, prove it.

2) There's no proof that the Starks payed for that.

3) "And from this day on, I want a careful watch kept over Theon Greyjoy. If there is war, we shall have sore need of his father's fleet."

The only reason Theon had the freedom to move about as he liked was because it was peacetime. During the war, had Ned been alive Theon would have been greatly restricted and watched closely. The only reason he wasn't was because he was friends with Robb.

4) No. It really isn't ridiculous. He was a child hostage. I don't care how you try to rationalize it. He was a victim.

5) Some would argue that taking a child hostage under threat of death isn't treating them well.

6) I actually agree that he betrayed Robb. He betrayed him as a friend. He swore no oaths and made no promises.

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

1) You say it's useless and yet you have still failed to show me the quote that proves that Theon likes whores even though he expresses dislike bordering on hatred for them and says that he'd beat his squire if he so much as found him near one. If you're so sure, prove it.

2) There's no proof that the Starks payed for that.

3) "And from this day on, I want a careful watch kept over Theon Greyjoy. If there is war, we shall have sore need of his father's fleet."

The only reason Theon had the freedom to move about as he liked was because it was peacetime. During the war, had Ned been alive Theon would have been greatly restricted and watched closely. The only reason he wasn't was because he was friends with Robb.

4) No. It really isn't ridiculous. He was a child hostage. I don't care how you try to rationalize it. He was a victim.

5) Some would argue that taking a child hostage under threat of death isn't treating them well.

6) I actually agree that he betrayed Robb. He betrayed him as a friend. He swore no oaths and made no promises.

I think it's imporant to note that the failure of warding is a reoccuring theme. Again and again, we find that if you're unwilling to treat a hostage as a hostage, warding is useless, nay, detrimental.

It's most obvious in Maureen, Dany takes chid hostages and is unwilling to kill them. So, the Harpies keep attacking. Dany's kindness is her downfall.

Dany's companion character, Jon, meanwhile wards the wildling children. But his unwillingness to hurt Mance's son again shows the warding is an empty jesture. Not only do I think there is a very good chance Mance is currently renegade and the wildlings will rise up at the Wall, but the Night's Watch did not feel comfortable without any real leverage over the wildlings, Jon's kindness is his downfall.

In Dorne, we have the Yronwoods who have taken Quentyn in. Yronwood attachment to Quentyn has created a feeling of obligation. And that obligation has dragged them into whatever mess Doran has up his sleeve. Yronwood kindness is their downfall.

And with Theon and the Starks, again, we have feelings of obligation. Robb feels like he can trust Theon. Robb's kindness is his downfall.

But, of course, all of these feelings of kindness, friendship and love go against the whole point of warding. A ward is a hostage that one is threatening to kill if the party does not act accordingly. If you are unwilling to kill the ward (Dany and Jon), if you release the ward (Theon), or if you let the ward control you (Quentyn), the whole thing falls apart.

Interestingly, although Balon seems like a cruel father, he was actually kept in line by the warding. He only attacked the North after Theon got released. The warding worked until Robb ended the agreement.

I place all fault on Robb and none on Theon.

[Hippocras]

Nice post hoshidochi

I agree the ward thing is not working so well for anyone. However we don't really have any examples in fact of wards being victims. They are treated well, in spite of being in some danger (ie. Myrcella).

However I find the moral relativism in your post and many others on this thread extremely problematic.

Theon is an adult and responsible for his own actions. He made promises and didn't keep them. He betrayed a friend's trust. He ordered the murder of children, after carrying out an invasion of Winterfell because of his own injured pride and NOT by his father's orders. For all of those things he has full personal responsibility. He absolutely was a turncloak, and what he did absolutely was a betrayal.

[Daeron's Black Boots]

Theon is an adult and responsible for his own actions. He made promises and didn't keep them. He betrayed a friend's trust. He ordered the murder of children, after carrying out an invasion of Winterfell because of his own injured pride and NOT by his father's orders. For all of those things he has full personal responsibility. He absolutely was a turncloak, and what he did absolutely was a betrayal.

agree with everything you state.

the question that must be asked is will the " old gods " forgive him?

[Lee-Sensei]

Nice post hoshidochi

I agree the ward thing is not working so well for anyone. However we don't really have any examples in fact of wards being victims. They are treated well, in spite of being in some danger (ie. Myrcella).

However I find the moral relativism in your post and many others on this thread extremely problematic.

Theon is an adult and responsible for his own actions. He made promises and didn't keep them. He betrayed a friend's trust. He ordered the murder of children, after carrying out an invasion of Winterfell because of his own injured pride and NOT by his father's orders. For all of those things he has full personal responsibility. He absolutely was a turncloak, and what he did absolutely was a betrayal.

There you go again. Prove that he made promises that he never kept or drop that point. The only promise I remember him making was when he promised not to tell anyone about the assassin that came for Bran and to the best of our knowledge he kept that promise.

He betrayed Robb as a friend. He really owed the other Starks nothing. No promises were made and no oaths were sworn. As for his cloak... he was always a Greyjoy and the heir at that.

[Metopheles]

So, should Theon be further punished, should he be beheaded by Stannis, or pardoned and probably bought off to mind his own business during the remaining war or go as negotiator to Euron (would never work, of course, but Stanis may believe it) ?

I would pardon him for all his real or imagined crimes. For me he did not betray anybody and if, not because of evil intentions, but because of confusion.