Did Theon Greyjoy betray House Stark?

[Lee-Sensei]

comparing Sansa and Balon?

I hate bias. How could anyone say that Theon deserved this and that... I am shocked what society is today. People cheering when a 12 year old kid chokes to death.

I meant the Stark that cared about him the most. Aside from Robb there's no evidence that the other Starks cared about him at all.

[Metopheles]

I meant the Stark that cared about him the most. Aside from Robb there's no evidence that the other Starks cared about him at all.

I know what you meant ;)

And I agree with that. I agree with all your posts.

Most Starks hated him. At least those who mentioned him. Bran, Jon, Cat,..

[Lee-Sensei]

I know what you meant ;)

And I agree with that. I agree with all your posts.

Most Starks hated him. At least those who mentioned him. Bran, Jon, Cat,..

Thanks. Yeah. The idea that Theon should be loyal to a family that took him hostage and held him for half of his life under threat of death... a family that doesn't really like, care about or accept him over his own family is baffling.

[Metopheles]

Theon's chapters in Dance are the most horrible ones to read. I never read something like that.

I don't get that there are people who enjoy that.

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

Theon's chapters in Dance are the most horrible ones to read. I never read something like that.

I don't get that there are people who enjoy that.

They were rough, but then Theon's escape to Stannis' camp made me so happy. I have never rooted for a character more than that.

It's really amazing. I remember thinking when I first started reading Clash, why should I care about this guy? He was barely in the last book and he's a dick!

But, he goes through hell and my love for the character is now harder and stronger.

[The Marquis de Leech]

Thanks. Yeah. The idea that Theon should be loyal to a family that took him hostage and held him for half of his life under threat of death... a family that doesn't really like, care about or accept him over his own family is baffling.

But OMG Starks are good guys. How dare Theon be loyal to his own family over the designated protagonists.

[Hippocras]

But OMG Starks are good guys. How dare Theon be loyal to his own family over the designated protagonists.

This is blatant twisting.

The question that started the thread was, did Theon betray the Starks? Yes he did. This had nothing to do with whitewashing the Starks, it is simply fact.

They trusted him, he let them down badly. At SEVERAL points he expresses gratitude and affection to the Starks. In GoT, when Catelyn tells a small group about her suspicions and the dagger, he is there and says that his family owes the Starks a great debt and they can count on his support. If you don't believe me, read that Catelyn chapter.

If the question of the thread had been "are the Starks wonderful and perfect" the answer clearly from everyone would be no they are not. But that was not the question was it?

Theon betrayed the Starks' trust. He betrayed his friend Robb. He murdered two small children for no other reason than pride. Stop whitewashing Theon!

Now has he been to hell and back? Yes he has. He is a much richer and more empathetic character now than he was before he met Ramsay. Does he deserve more punishment? That depends on his actions from this point forward. BUT he is a prisoner of war and the Northerners have good reason to hate him. Stannis may need to kill him to support his fragile alliance with the Northerners. The only person with the potential to change this basic fact is Bran, because if Bran is known to be alive and to forgive him, the Northerners will as well.

[Metopheles]

Nobody can say anything about the Starks. and everybody who claims that this is possible was never in one of the failed threads about it. It is utterly impossible to talk about the Starks or say that you don't like them. This is social suicide.

[The Marquis de Leech]

This is blatant twisting.

The question that started the thread was, did Theon betray the Starks? Yes he did. This had nothing to do with whitewashing the Starks, it is simply fact.

They trusted him, he let them down badly. At SEVERAL points he expresses gratitude and affection to the Starks. In GoT, when Catelyn tells a small group about her suspicions and the dagger, he is there and says that his family owes the Starks a great debt and they can count on his support. If you don't believe me, read that Catelyn chapter.

Trusting someone, and having that trust be misplaced (or downright stupid) does not constitute betrayal. It simply means that they never should have trusted him in the first place, because Theon was not in a position to meet their unrealistic expectations.

[Hippocras]

Trusting someone, and having that trust be misplaced (or downright stupid) does not constitute betrayal. It simply means that they never should have trusted him in the first place, because Theon was not in a position to meet their unrealistic expectations.

You are not even serious

[Metopheles]

If you have a dog and give him food but mistreat him constantly or hold him against his will, is it betrayal when he snaps at you?

[ovis alba]

If you have a dog and give him food but mistreat him constantly or hold him against his will, is it betrayal when he snaps at you?

If he told you he will not snap at you before: yes.

I think people define betray a little variable here. To me it is not even a question if Theon betrayed them: He told Robb he would do one thing and instead did another, that's basically betrayal per definition to me.

The more interesting question is, if this betrayal was justified and this is where the way the Stark treated him comes into the picture.

[The Marquis de Leech]

You are not even serious

Of course I'm serious. Betrayal doesn't mean trust, it means breaching an obligation. Robb may have trusted Theon, but Theon was in no way obligated to continue supporting Robb, especially when he had an actual obligation to House Greyjoy.

[Metopheles]

If he told you he will not snap at you before: yes.

I think people define betray a little variable here. To me it is not even a question if Theon betrayed them: He told Robb he would do one thing and instead did another, that's basically betrayal per definition to me.

The more interesting question is, if this betrayal was justified and this is where the way the Stark treated him comes into the picture.

If you are held by a slaver and he removes your chains and says "Go fetch me some water from the well outside the country" and you say, "yes master, i will bring you that water and will come home" and you do not bring the water but run away... the fuck, you just betrayed your dear master.

Theon is a captive and treated basically like a slave. He does things and gets food and shelter, though he can't do what he wants. Now there is a chance to escape , he would surely say " Oh well I will come back and chain me up again. Why wouldn't I ?"

I think every slave that ever escaped, was a traitor. Better go and find them and hang them for it flay them and torture them forever.

[The Marquis de Leech]

If he told you he will not snap at you before: yes.

I think people define betray a little variable here. To me it is not even a question if Theon betrayed them: He told Robb he would do one thing and instead did another, that's basically betrayal per definition to me.

The more interesting question is, if this betrayal was justified and this is where the way the Stark treated him comes into the picture.

Theon promised to deliver the message from Robb to Balon. Which is exactly what he did (he didn't throw it in the sea, for example, or run off to the Free Cities). He even spoke up for Robb against his own father.

What, exactly, did Theon promise Robb, and failed to do? Bearing in mind, that there was no oath swearing in the book?

[ovis alba]

Everyone who "betrays" someone does it, because he feels more obligated to someone else or himself than to the person he "betrays", that doesn't make it less of a betrayal?

Littlefinger also (at least to me) betrayed Ned, although he even sort of told him, he shouldn't be trusted.

Frey betrayed Robb by breaking the guest right, altough he clearly shoudn't be trusted after what Robb did.

[ovis alba]

the fuck, you just betrayed your dear master.

Yes, I did. Fully justifiable in my opinion but still yes.

[Metopheles]

LF didn't betray Ned. Ned tried to betray the crown and LF was with the crown. So he did a double game to serve the crown. He prevented high treason. And then again, why should LF be nice to Ned, or why should Ned trust LF, why did Ned think LF has to be loyal to him. They hate each other to the death.

You and your stance on betrayal is highly nitpicking. You justify slavery and holding people against their will have to return to their masters or they deserve punishment... that are certainly humane standards. I guess the next thing you do is condemn Gandhi and MLK for rising against their masters. Better hold trial against them.

[The Marquis de Leech]

Everyone who "betrays" someone does it, because he feels more obligated to someone else or himself than to the person he "betrays", that doesn't make it less of a betrayal?

Littlefinger also (at least to me) betrayed Ned, although he even sort of told him, he shouldn't be trusted.

Frey betrayed Robb by breaking the guest right, altough he clearly shoudn't be trusted after what Robb did.

First off, for the hundredth time, the only obligation Theon had to Robb was to deliver the letter. Theon was in no position to promise anything else.

Did Littlefinger betray Ned? Well, did Littlefinger have an obligation to Ned? Perhaps, perhaps not. Rather depends on whether his promise to bribe the goldcloaks constitutes a binding promise. You can make an argument either way.

Robb betrayed Lord Frey first, by breaking the marriage contract.* Frey owed the Starks nothing ... until the obligations of Guest Right came into play. At which point there was betrayal, because Frey had breached his obligations as a host.

*Though it is not unusual to see posters argue that Robb should have broken the contract because Frey was a weasel. Again the Stark fanboyism effect.

[ovis alba]

You and your stance on betrayal is highly nitpicking. You justify slavery and holding people against their will have to return to their masters or they deserve punishment... that are certainly humane standards. I guess the next thing you do is condemn Gandhi and MLK for rising against their masters. Better hold trial against them.

I'm not justifying anything, I'm just defining what the "word" betray litarally means to me (and apparently some others), I never claimed that betrayel can not morally be the right thing to do in certain situations depending on who and why you betray someone (that's just you twisting my words around) . And yes, if you play a double game, you are betraying one side in the end by my definition.