Did Theon Greyjoy betray House Stark?

[Daeron's Black Boots]

So, should Theon be further punished, should he be beheaded by Stannis, or pardoned and probably bought off to mind his own business during the remaining war or go as negotiator to Euron (would never work, of course, but Stanis may believe it) ?

I would pardon him for all his real or imagined crimes. For me he did not betray anybody and if, not because of evil intentions, but because of confusion.

:agree:

" The musicians began to play again, and the bard Abel began to sing " Two hearts That Beat as One. Two of his women joined their voices to his own to make a sweet harmony. Theon found himself wondering if he should say a prayer. Will the old gods hear me if i do? They were not his gods, had never been his gods. He was ironborn, a son of Pyke, his god was the Drowned God of the islands... but Winterfell was long leagues from the sea. It had been a lifetime since any god had heard him. He did not know who he was, or what he was, why he was alive, why he had ever been born. Theon, a voice seemed to whisper." ADWD The Prince of Winterfell

[Hippocras]

The question of whether what he did was betrayal and whether he needs to be punished further are separate questions IMO.

I think he definitely betrayed Robb and broke his word. But I also think he has clearly been thoroughly punished.

But, at this point he is in such bad shape that life itself would be punishment as far as I can tell. He can barely walk, he is missing fingers, can't shoot a bow, is psychologically damaged beyond repair and is desperate only to make amends and be set free.

So I see him becoming a sacrifice not too far from now. But a willing one, if done to benefit the Starks or Winterfell or Asha.

[Metopheles]

The question of whether what he did was betrayal and whether he needs to be punished further are separate questions IMO.

I think he definitely betrayed Robb and broke his word. But I also think he has clearly been thoroughly punished.

But, at this point he is in such bad shape that life itself would be punishment as far as I can tell. He can barely walk, he is missing fingers, can't shoot a bow, is psychologically damaged beyond repair and is desperate only to make amends and be set free.

So I see him becoming a sacrifice not too far from now. But a willing one, if done to benefit the Starks or Winterfell or Asha.

That is such bad writing if this would happen. Seriously. Kill a man that was tortured for a year or more for no reason at all so that dear Jonnyboy can live. I doubt Stannis cares if Jon would be resurrected. And I like both, Jon and Theon. It would be stupid for Theon to die for Jon. Just as lame as Stoneheart dying for him. Why should Theon die for the Starks ?

And he hasn't been punished !!! Ramsay did it for fun, not because he wanted vengeance for killing the miller's boys. He killed them. Like Cersei, it seems they got punished for the evil they have done in our eyes, but actually Cersei got punished for fucking and Theon for fun.

Theon should get all the money the Boltons have as payment for personal injuries.

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

That is such bad writing if this would happen. Seriously. Kill a man that was tortured for a year or more for no reason at all so that dear Jonnyboy can live. I doubt Stannis cares if Jon would be resurrected. And I like both, Jon and Theon. It would be stupid for Theon to die for Jon. Just as lame as Stoneheart dying for him. Why should Theon die for the Starks ?

And he hasn't been punished !!! Ramsay did it for fun, not because he wanted vengeance for killing the miller's boys. He killed them. Like Cersei, it seems they got punished for the evil they have done in our eyes, but actually Cersei got punished for fucking and Theon for fun.

Theon should get all the money the Boltons have as payment for personal injuries.

I hate the trope of redemption through death.

Theon dying leads to no good. Bran already ate his Jojen paste. He doesn't need Theon's blood. And Jon wouldn't want anyone to die for his resurrection.

The North doesn't need its vengence since Bran and Rickon are alive. And the word is pretty much out on that.

Theon dying would only harm the world. Euron and VIctarion are reckless right now and Asha failed to reel them in. Theon need to unite and pacify the Iron Isles

[Metopheles]

I hate the trope of redemption through death.

Theon dying leads to no good. Bran already ate his Jojen paste. He doesn't need Theon's blood. And Jon wouldn't want anyone to die for his resurrection.

The North doesn't need its vengence since Bran and Rickon are alive. And the word is pretty much out on that.

Theon dying would only harm the world. Euron and VIctarion are reckless right now and Asha failed to reel them in. Theon need to unite and pacify the Iron Isles

Pretty much the North should thank Theon. His lack of cunning allowed them to flee. Rammers and Roose would have skinned Bran and Rickon without a second thought.

And I hate the death idea too. What kind of redemption is that ? A neat redemption would be him going to Jon and both hugging like brothers and all things forgotten. I believe in Gandhi's idea of atonement, not the Inquisition's idea of the witch burning and therefore going to heaven.

Theon has something of the Bride from Kill Bill. pregnant and gets beaten up, gets shot in the head, gets slashed over the back by a sword, gets shot in the abdomen, gets buried alive, gets herself picked up, again and again. Theon is pretty enduring. He will easily stand up again. We saw that he can easily remember his name, can survive in a blizzard, that guy is a superman.

He is like the superheroes that get destroyed and come back again.

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

Pretty much the North should thank Theon. His lack of cunning allowed them to flee. Rammers and Roose would have skinned Bran and Rickon without a second thought.

And I hate the death idea too. What kind of redemption is that ? A neat redemption would be him going to Jon and both hugging like brothers and all things forgotten. I believe in Gandhi's idea of atonement, not the Inquisition's idea of the witch burning and therefore going to heaven.

Theon has something of the Bride from Kill Bill. pregnant and gets beaten up, gets shot in the head, gets slashed over the back by a sword, gets shot in the abdomen, gets buried alive, gets herself picked up, again and again. Theon is pretty enduring. He will easily stand up again. We saw that he can easily remember his name, can survive in a blizzard, that guy is a superman.

He is like the superheroes that get destroyed and come back again.

I would love to see Theon in the Night's Watch. Theon Turncloak to Theon Blackcloak. The show foreshadowed it a little bit, too, but who knows what actually will happen.

Theon could take over Sam's job: reader, thinking, planner. Plus, seeing Theon interact with Jon and Mel would simply be delightful.

The problem is, is taking the black enough to satisfy the North's hatred of Theon? Whether or not Theon actually betrayed the Starks, the Northerners see it that way. Really, a talking tree or word of Rickon's survival are the only things that can save him.

[Hippocras]

You are all ignoring that he was basically begging to die in pretty much every recent chapter. He lives in constant agony. He has completely cracked mentally, and physically is destroyed. What the hell could he hope to do in the watch, especially now that it is about to be overrun by Others?

Last we saw he had absolutely no desire to live.

[Metopheles]

Last we saw he had absolutely no desire to live.

..as prisoner and especially in reach of Ramsay.

To both of you :

I did not intent with my post to send him to the Wall, that completely misses my point. That would be punishment. He will likely go there to be with Jon, safe, but not as recruit.

The Watch will likely be destroyed anyway at the end of the series. And it would be nothing I'd miss. It's a stupid order. Embodiment of hypocrisy.

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

You are all ignoring that he was basically begging to die in pretty much every recent chapter. He lives in constant agony. He has completely cracked mentally, and physically is destroyed. What the hell could he hope to do in the watch, especially now that it is about to be overrun by Others?

Last we saw he had absolutely no desire to live.

Okay, I will grant you that the Wall and Winterfell are about to look very similar to Yunkai and Maureen. A heeping mess of death.

Theon is still needed to reign in Euron and VIctarion. He is the heir after all. Euron and Victarion have his fleet.

[The Wolves]

so eddard stark has 5 children a bastard and a ward. ( he raised 7 children ) might be imporant to the numerology aspect of GRRM.

i think his ward can technically be counted as his " son " because he was raised by wolves and follows the old gods and not the drowned god.

i hope in the winds of winter bran sends a message to he people that Prince Theon is still Lord of Winterfell...

maybe a certain " wolfpack " shows up out of the neck and surrounds him just as his head is about to come off...

Ned Stark had 6 children and he never considered Theon a son and Theon is NOT a son of Winterfell he's a son of Pyke.

And besides that moment in ADWD there is nothing to indicate that Theon ever worshipped the Old Gods.

And Theon is not Lord of Winterfell only a Stark will hold that title and Theon is not a Stark and never will be

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

Ned Stark had 6 children and he never considered Theon a son and Theon is NOT a son of Winterfell he's a son of Pyke.

And besides that moment in ADWD there is nothing to indicate that Theon ever worshipped the Old Gods.

And Theon is not Lord of Winterfell only a Stark will hold that title and Theon is not a Stark and never will be

While its a little weird to think about the Starks in 7 since they worship the Old Gods, I see their family structure more as Ned, Cat and the kids make 7.

Father (Ned), Mother (Cat), Warrior (Robb), Maiden (Sansa), Crone (Bran), Smith (Rickon), Stranger (Arya)

[aDanceWithFlagons]

I think it's imporant to note that the failure of warding is a reoccuring theme. Again and again, we find that if you're unwilling to treat a hostage as a hostage, warding is useless, nay, detrimental.

It's most obvious in Maureen, Dany takes chid hostages and is unwilling to kill them. So, the Harpies keep attacking. Dany's kindness is her downfall.

Dany's companion character, Jon, meanwhile wards the wildling children. But his unwillingness to hurt Mance's son again shows the warding is an empty jesture. Not only do I think there is a very good chance Mance is currently renegade and the wildlings will rise up at the Wall, but the Night's Watch did not feel comfortable without any real leverage over the wildlings, Jon's kindness is his downfall.

In Dorne, we have the Yronwoods who have taken Quentyn in. Yronwood attachment to Quentyn has created a feeling of obligation. And that obligation has dragged them into whatever mess Doran has up his sleeve. Yronwood kindness is their downfall.

And with Theon and the Starks, again, we have feelings of obligation. Robb feels like he can trust Theon. Robb's kindness is his downfall.

But, of course, all of these feelings of kindness, friendship and love go against the whole point of warding. A ward is a hostage that one is threatening to kill if the party does not act accordingly. If you are unwilling to kill the ward (Dany and Jon), if you release the ward (Theon), or if you let the ward control you (Quentyn), the whole thing falls apart.

Interestingly, although Balon seems like a cruel father, he was actually kept in line by the warding. He only attacked the North after Theon got released. The warding worked until Robb ended the agreement.

I place all fault on Robb and none on Theon.

Jon holding the wildings sons was to keep the wildlings in line. He had no reason to kill them. If he would have started cutting of heads for no reason, it would be all out war with the wildlings. Exactly the opposite of what Jon was trying for.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Deleted Double Post.

[Toccs]

Theon's "betrayal" of Robb is actually quite similar (if slightly less severe) to Robb's betrayal of Joffery. Placed in an impossible situation, both chose to support family. The difference being that while Robb owed fealty to Joffery, Theon owed nothing to Robb.

Robb should never have sent Theon as an emissary in the first place. The only shred of leverage he had over Balon was Theon as a hostage, even Ned knew that which is why in his preparations, he gave specific orders to keep Theon close, shoudl they need to leverage Balon into action.

[Hippocras]

Theon's "betrayal" of Robb is actually quite similar (if slightly less severe) to Robb's betrayal of Joffery. Placed in an impossible situation, both chose to support family. The difference being that while Robb owed fealty to Joffery, Theon owed nothing to Robb.

Robb should never have sent Theon as an emissary in the first place. The only shred of leverage he had over Balon was Theon as a hostage, even Ned knew that which is why in his preparations, he gave specific orders to keep Theon close, shoudl they need to leverage Balon into action.

BS!

Robb and Joffrey were never friends. They never shared any experiences, never confided in each other, never looked to each other for advice or companionship. Robb never sat in on Joffrey's war councils as a trusted friend. Robb never promised to bring Joffrey his father's fleet.

These arguments about what was "owed" are ridiculous. Betrayal is about TRUST that was broken.

[Metopheles]

These arguments about what was "owed" are ridiculous. Betrayal is about TRUST that was broken.

And therefore Robb is in no position to accuse someone of betrayal, when he betrayed Joffrey, Roslin, Walder, the Lannisters (no harm to hostage Jaime)

Theon betrayed his friend, as you said, but Robb betrayed his king, his fiancee, his to-be father-in-law and the family of his hostage.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

BS!

Robb and Joffrey were never friends. They never shared any experiences, never confided in each other, never looked to each other for advice or companionship. Robb never sat in on Joffrey's war councils as a trusted friend. Robb never promised to bring Joffrey his father's fleet.

These arguments about what was "owed" are ridiculous. Betrayal is about TRUST that was broken.

Theon's betrayal is on a personal friend to friend level. That is it. All the political stuff is not betrayal.

[High-born Plumber]

Awesome reading in here. Very good stuff all around.

[Hippocras]

Theon's betrayal is on a personal friend to friend level. That is it. All the political stuff is not betrayal.

However betrayal is not defined by politics. At its core it is about trust that is broken. People should look up the definition of the word before making silly arguments Theon did not betray Robb. Of course he did.

[Lee-Sensei]

However betrayal is not defined by politics. At its core it is about trust that is broken. People should look up the definition of the word before making silly arguments Theon did not betray Robb. Of course he did.

What you're saying doesn't conflict with what you quoted. It was a personal betrayal of a friend. Robb's the only one he owed any loyalty too (as a friend). Robb's the one who was betrayed. The rest he owed nothing.