Did Theon Greyjoy betray House Stark?

[Metopheles]

*Though it is not unusual to see posters argue that Robb should have broken the contract because Frey was a weasel. Again the Stark fanboyism effect.

:lol:

I SO agree

[Metopheles]

I'm not justifying anything, I'm just defining what the "word" betray litarally means to me (and apparently some others), I never claimed that betrayel can not morally be the right thing to do in certain situations depending on who and why you betray someone (that's just you twisting my words around) . And yes, if you play a double game, you are betraying one side in the end by my definition.

you can't betray your master. Because you are forced to be loyal to them. You say you are loyal to them because they would punish you if you didn't. But you actually are not loyal to them, only to their whips. In your mind and soul, your loyalty lies to you. You are forced to say you won't betray. If you then "betray" them, you didn't really betray them. You just escaped for your own good. It would be somewhat sadomasochistic if you bravely return to your chains and whips. And that would be a betrayal. To yourself.

So as, I believe Lee-Sensei was it, said, if you are forced to be loyal, then you are not really loyal. Just forced. Like a slave. His escape is justified and a betrayal never happened, because there never was a real trust.

[ovis alba]

First off, for the hundredth time, the only obligation Theon had to Robb was to deliver the letter. Theon was in no position to promise anything else.

Did Littlefinger betray Ned? Well, did Littlefinger have an obligation to Ned? Perhaps, perhaps not. Rather depends on whether his promise to bribe the goldcloaks constitutes a binding promise. You can make an argument either way.

Robb betrayed Lord Frey first, by breaking the marriage contract.* Frey owed the Starks nothing ... until the obligations of Guest Right came into play. At which point there was betrayal, because Frey had breached his obligations as a host.

*Though it is not unusual to see posters argue that Robb should have broken the contract because Frey was a weasel. Again the Stark fanboyism effect.

The obligation of Theon to me is implied in his behaviour. Smiling in someones face, fighting at his side and then turning around at burning down your home is betrayal to me, if it is outspoken or not (which we don't really know, because we are not part of Theons and Robbs conversation).

And yes, Robb betrayed the Frey's to me that's also no question and if they would have stated: You broke your promise, now we break ours and stabbed him right in the heart, I wouldn't even call it betrayal from the Frey side.

[ovis alba]

His escape is justified and a betrayal never happened, because there never was a real trust.

In Theon's case there was, because Robb did trust him. As Ned trusted LF, the Freys trusted Robb and Robb trusted the guest right and in many cases probably the slave master trusts that you are feared enough. And once there is betrayal the trust of course always turns out to be unjustified, but it existed. What one can then clearly talk about is whether this trust was just incredibly stupid from the person that trusted someone, but as I said, to me that is a different question.

[Metopheles]

No.

[ovis alba]

Ok, so no point of discussing on a discussion board then.

[Ser Eric]

Theon betrayed Robb (his friend, his brother). That is something he pretty much outright admits to himself in the books.

Did Theon betray house Stark? Probably not. He goes to Balon and delivers the thread and even tries to argue on Robb's behalf.

[Lee-Sensei]

Theon betrayed Robb (his friend, his brother). That is something he pretty much outright admits to himself in the books.

Did Theon betray house Stark? Probably not. He goes to Balon and delivers the thread and even tries to argue on Robb's behalf.

This is something I agree with. He betrayed Robb as a friend (and a justified betrayal in my opinion as his loyalties are to his own House over House Stark). He owes House Stark nothing.

[Ser Eric]

This is something I agree with. He betrayed Robb as a friend (and a justified betrayal in my opinion as his loyalties are to his own House over House Stark). He owes House Stark nothing.

I love Theon's character but it wasn't justified imo. If Theon had the chance to do it all over again he wouldn't betray Robb

[Lee-Sensei]

I love Theon's character but it wasn't justified imo. If Theon had the chance to do it all over again he wouldn't betray Robb

Something that's often forgotten is that even though Robb loved and cared about him, the people who cared about him the most were from the Iron Islands. I tend to believe that no one remembers Dagmer and Alannys because D and D "ingeniously" chose to turn one of them into a dick that doesn't care and killed off the other.

Out of curiosity, do you think Robb would choose Theon over his family, people, home and inheritance?

[Ser Eric]

Something that's often forgotten is that even though Robb loved and cared about him, the people who cared about him the most were from the Iron Islands. I tend to believe that no one remembers Dagmer and Alannys because D and D "ingeniously" chose to turn one of them into a dick that doesn't care and killed off the other.

Out of curiosity, do you think Robb would choose Theon over his family, people, home and inheritance?

His mother loved him but that had nothing to do with his actions. And I disagree with the idea that dagmer cared about Theon more than Robb did. More importantly, taking Winterfell was the ultimate betrayal of Robb's friendship. He did not do it because his father commanded it, he did for personal fame and his because he envied his sister. Had he just stuck to this father's plan then well it was understandable.

Probably not.

[Lee-Sensei]

His mother loved him but that had nothing to do with his actions. And I disagree with the idea that dagmer cared about Theon more than Robb did. More importantly, taking Winterfell was the ultimate betrayal of Robb's friendship. He did not do it because his father commanded it, he did for personal fame and his because he envied his sister. Had he just stuck to this father's plan then well it was understandable.

Probably not.

It doesn't matter that those weren't his reasons. He had people who cared about him more on the Iron Islands. Also, he makes a direct comparison of Robb and Dagmer where Dagmer comes out on top. He was already at war with Robb. He took Winterfell so he could earn the Seastone Chair. He was held hostage for half of his life so he could sit on it, so I don't blame him. It was his right. Robb says that Bran can't inherit before him just like Asha shouldn't inherit before Theon.

Exactly. So why should Theon be expected to do the same?

[Ser Eric]

It doesn't matter that those weren't his reasons. He had people who cared about him more on the Iron Islands. Also, he makes a direct comparison of Robb and Dagmer where Dagmer comes out on top.

Exactly. So why should Theon be expected to do the same?

It does matter.

He had a mother who he never went to see. Dagmer certainly did not care as much about him as Robb did.

He was treated a lot better at Winterfell than he ever was in the Iron Islands.

Have I said he should be? Theon betrayed Robb's trust, not the Starks. Theon pretty much admits to it himself. He knows he made the wrong choice.

[Lee-Sensei]

It does matter.

He had a mother who he never went to see. Dagmer certainly did not care as much about him as Robb did.

He was treated a lot better at Winterfell than he ever was in the Iron Islands.

Have I said he should be? Theon betrayed Robb's trust, not the Starks. Theon pretty much admits to it himself. He knows he made the wrong choice.

No. It doesn't matter. He went with the Greyjoys because his first loyalty is to the Iron Islands and his House (The cloak I was swaddled in bore a kraken as a babe, not a direwolf).

He actually expresses a desire to see his mother, sister and Dagmer on more than one occasion until he realized that Balon was disinheriting him.

No he wasn't. This nonsense again. Did the Starks treat him better than his brothers? Yes. Did the Starks treat him better in general? No. Theon has good memories of the Iron Islands. Of his family, Dagmer and had friends there. So no. The Starks didn't treat him better than the Greyjoys.

Theon admits that he'd rather be dead. And who wouldn't prefer death to a year and a half of flaying, starvation and living in unsanitary conditions.

[Ser Eric]

No. It doesn't matter. He went with the Greyjoys because his first loyalty is to the Iron Islands and his House (The cloak I was swaddled in bore a kraken as a babe, not a direwolf).

He actually expresses a desire to see his mother, sister and Dagmer on more than one occasion until he realized that Balon was disinheriting him.

No he wasn't. This nonsense again. Did the Starks treat him better than his brothers? Yes. Did the Starks treat him better in general? No. Theon has good memories of the Iron Islands. Of his family, Dagmer and had friends there. So no. The Starks didn't treat him better than the Greyjoys.

Theon admits that he'd rather be dead. And who wouldn't prefer death to a year and a half of flaying, starvation and living in unsanitary conditions.

No Theon says he should have been at Robb's side. He betrayed Robb's trust. he took Winterfell not because his father ordered him to but because he lusted after fame.

Had Robb done the same, I would have called Robb a betrayer as well. But he didn't.

[Lee-Sensei]

No Theon says he should have been at Robb's side. He betrayed Robb's trust. he took Winterfell not because his father ordered him to but because he lusted after fame.

Had Robb done the same, I would have called Robb a betrayer as well. But he didn't.

Nope. Because if Theon stayed with Robb, he's much more likely to get Karstarked while he's under guard or locked up. He's still a hostage and Balon will still invade. He took Winterfell because he wanted his rightful inheritance. It's baffling how many people think Theon was wrong for wanting the Seastone Chair. Robb wanted and got to be Lord of Winterfell. Why shouldn't Theon want the same thing.

It was a betrayal. He betrayed Robb. He owed House Stark nothing.

[Ser Eric]

Nope. Because if Theon stayed with Robb, he's much more likely to get Karstarked while he's under guard or locked up. He's still a hostage and Balon will still invade. He took Winterfell because he wanted his rightful inheritance. It's baffling how many people think Theon was wrong for wanting the Seastone Chair. Robb wanted and got to be Lord of Winterfell. Why shouldn't Theon want the same thing.

It was a betrayal. He betrayed Robb. He owed House Stark nothing.

Theon is not wrong for wanting the seastone chair. hell, Robb's offer would have made him the king some day.

That's what I said initially, so I am not sure what we are arguing about now.

[Lee-Sensei]

Theon is not wrong for wanting the seastone chair. hell, Robb's offer would have made him the king some day.

That's what I said initially, so I am not sure what we are arguing about now.

The idea that the Starks were "his real family", that he only "betrayed the North" because he was power hungry and that he was wrong to choose his own family over the one that held him hostage for half of his life and don't like or care about him.

[Errant Bard]

So, let's say the Lannisters keep Sansa for ten years (Joffrey still dead though), and Ned never died so the North never seceded. Now Arya Sansa, friend with Myrcella, Tommen and Margaery (grew up ten years with them after all,) is asked to go see her mother and brother to negotiate the help of the Starks in the war that just erupted between Lannisters and Martells. Robb reveals their intention to hit the Lannisters with all they've got. Sansa sides with her family and helps take King's Landing.

Would it be betrayal?

ETA: -Arya +Sansa

[Metopheles]

So, let's say the Lannisters keep Sansa for ten years (Joffrey still dead though), and Ned never died so the North never seceded. Now Arya, friend with Myrcella, Tommen and Margaery (grew up ten years with them after all,) is asked to go see her mother and brother to negotiate the help of the Starks in the war that just erupted between Lannisters and Martells. Robb reveals their intention to hit the Lannisters with all they've got. Sansa sides with her family and helps take King's Landing.

Would it be betrayal?

Of course. She betrays her family by this. Sansa is a Lannister after all (if she in this scenario mysteriously beamed back from LFs ship to Cersei's lap and Cersei forgave her for poisoning Joffrey and Tywin allowed her to still be a Lannister even with Tyrion spirited away.....)