What would have happened if Joffrey and co. wouldn't have been "lannisterised"?

[Stormland's Fury]

Tommen is more like Robert than Joffrey was, and this may be due to his relative neglect by Cersei. Tommen was not the firstborn heir to the crown, so she cared little about his development until after he became king (and then after that she deliberately stunted it).

While I would not agree that Tommen was more like Robert, it does raise an interesting point though: Tommen is just as friendly as Shireen, so it doesn't have anything to do with genes apparently, as Stannis and Selyse aren't exactly parents of the year either..

Joffrey took after his mother in many aspects with some of Robert's bloodlust in the mix.

I would think it would have been a more "pure" Baratheon civil war with pretty much Renly having either acting as "guardian" for Joffrey and to make himself the real ruler of Westeros and Stannis and Tywin championing the case of the "proper" succession. I still think that Renly would have made a grab at the throne with the Stormlands and Reach behind him and in this case with Joffrey as a hostage.

Yeah true.

Tywin would have been certainly more passive too if Joffrey was more distanced to the Lannisters a whole.

In that scenario I don't think Renly would have made a grab because Joffrey would be a close family member and there would be no treat from Cersei. By extension neither Jon or Stannis would have looked into his Joff's true parentage because they would have accepted him by all means as a Baratheon.

The biggest problem seems to be Cersei not being subtle about what she wanted Joffrey to be, that being a proud Lion of the Rock. The Lannisters and Baratheons certainly don't share mcuh love for each other in genral. The former seeing the latter as common brutes and in return being seen as pompous asses by the latter.

[Pod The Impaler]

While I would not agree that Tommen was more like Robert, it does raise an interesting point though: Tommen is just as friendly as Shireen, so it doesn't have anything with genes apparently.

Joffrey was definitely

Yeah true.

Tywin would have been certainly more passive too if Joffrey was more distanced to the Lannisters a whole.

In that scenario I don't think Renly would have made a grab because Joffrey would be a close family member and there would be no treat from Cersei. By extension neither Jon or Stannis would have looked into his Joff's true parentage because they would have accepted himby all means as a Baratheon.

The biggest problem seems to be Cersei not being subtle about what she wanted Joffrey to be, that being a proud Lion of the Rock. The Lannisters and Baratheons certainly don't share mcuh love for each other in genral. The former seeing the latter as common brutes and in return being seen as pompous asses by the latter.

more like Cersei with some of Robert's bloodlust in the mix.

If Joffrey learned anything from the example of Robert, it was Robert's lack of caution, and disdain of intellectual pursuits.

[Stormland's Fury]

That's indeed a dangerous combination. Stannis even refers to Robert not being the sharpest knife in the drawer.

Joffrey was also incredible ignorant and oblivious too a lot, definitely a trait he picked up from both his parents. The lack of caution is by all means a Baratheon characteristic though and certainly not a Lannister one.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

That's indeed a dangerous combination. Stannis even refers to Robert not being the sharpest knife in the drawer.

Joffrey was also incredible ignorant and oblivious too a lot, definitely a trait he picked up from both his parents. The lack of caution is by all means a Baratheon characteristic though and certainly not a Lannister one.

Really? I wouldn't describe Jaime, Cersei, or Tyrion as being very cautious.

[Stormland's Fury]

If one would generalize the two families, not look at the individual members. Stannis is also more cautious than his brothers.

But in general Lannisters are cunning and crafty, while Bartheons tend to solve problems with brute force until either they or their enemies are destroyed.

A lion can play with it's pray, stags ram eachother.

Even the fashion how both families acquired their respective ancestral homes speaks volumes about both.

[Dana Holland]

Nothing would changes about Joff imo. I think he was born that way it is genetic with him he would have been that way. Now if Tommen was fostered in say the North or on Dragonstone I'd argue that he would have turned out a lot better. He would not be plump he would have a proper training as a warrior and leadaer.I think his is a tale of untapped potential. He would be a great king but he will be sacrificed because Cersie and co are wack jobs.

[Stormland's Fury]

Reading some of the answers I have come to the conclusion that the Lannisters would have less influence on the throne obviously but that it would have come sooner or later to a civil war between the Baratheons. Maybe not right away but some generations later at least, they are already not the closest bunch and you would basically have three separate Houses Baratheons with more or less different world views. They would clash, if not because of their stubbornness alone.

[The Frosted King]

What are you all talking about? A lot of the horrible things Joffrey did were because he was trying to emulate Robert and his "Baratheon-ness." It's ridiculous that his behavior is blamed entirely on Cersei.

Joffrey may have sought to emulate his father, but his methods were all Cersei.

The king can do as he likes?

The kingsguard beating Sansa?

The sheer ugliness underneath the exterior is all Lannister.

The point blank stupidity?

Robert was no saint, but he was a far cry from Joffrey.

The kid veritably had no friends.

Not a one.

Robert was famous for his charisma.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I'm saying that I think Joffrey already was embracing his Baratheon heritage by trying to be like Robert.

Quite the contrary.

If he had caught some of the Baratheon behaviours he would be like Robert and he wouldn't need to TRY to be like him.

I can't remember if Cersei said it either in show or book but either way she's right: Robert was a fool and a drunk but he didn't enjoy cruelty and was rather appalled by Joffrey's killing the kitten. In fact, he says Ned that the only reason he keeps being King is because he wouldn't like Joffrey being King with Cersei whispering to his ear. He knows Joffrey is a Lannister even though he did believe he was his flesh and blood.

[Stormland's Fury]

It's quite tragic but Joffrey could have been like a more sophisticated Baratheon. But whole KL is just one big counterproductive mess, so I'm not surprised he turned out like he did.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

Quite the contrary.

If he had caught some of the Baratheon behaviours he would be like Robert and he wouldn't need to TRY to be like him.

I can't remember if Cersei said it either in show or book but either way she's right: Robert was a fool and a drunk but he didn't enjoy cruelty and was rather appalled by Joffrey's killing the kitten. In fact, he says Ned that the only reason he keeps being King is because he wouldn't like Joffrey being King with Cersei whispering to his ear. He knows Joffrey is a Lannister even though he did believe he was his flesh and blood.

The Cersei line was just show, I think, but I'm pretty sure that Robert said it both show and book that Joff as King with Cersei in his ear is what stopped him from pursuing his Sell Sword King dream. Robert saw what Joffrey was and in both book and show, I think it embarrassed him. That's why he hid for so long after the Joff and Arya incident on the Trident.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Maybe Stannis would have stayed loyal to the Throne, but Renly would have still tried to usurp the Crown and Tywin would still have the same amount of authority and influence over the Crown due to his daughter and Grandchildren being royalty and the amount of money he had lent the King.

[Stormland's Fury]

That's where my long term question comes into play. What do the Lannisters do once Joffrey's son got married? It has to end at some point.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

The Cersei line was just show, I think, but I'm pretty sure that Robert said it both show and book that Joff as King with Cersei in his ear is what stopped him from pursuing his Sell Sword King dream. Robert saw what Joffrey was and in both book and show, I think it embarrassed him. That's why he hid for so long after the Joff and Arya incident on the Trident.

LOL, yes. I remembered and heard it in my head with Lena's voice :lol:

The point is that she's right even in books: Robert definitely doesn't have that cruelty that Joffrey seems to posses no matter what his flaws are.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

That's where my long term question comes into play. What do the Lannisters do once Joffrey's son got married? It has to end at some point.

Marry him with a Lannister cousin.

[Stormland's Fury]

LOL, yes. I remembered and heard it in my head with Lena's voice :lol:

The point is that she's right even in books: Robert definitely doesn't have that cruelty that Joffrey seems to posses no matter what his flaws are.

I wonder where that comes from though, it's not like any Lannister is particularly cruel either, I mean in a purely sadistic way.

[Stormland's Fury]

Marry him with a Lannister cousin.

Still at one point it has to stop, even more so if every generation gets several kids. I never figured what Tywin's plan was anyway, they'll be forever stuck with the Baratheon name no matter how much creative marrying they are going to conduct.

[MyaStoned]

How would events have unfolded if Joffrey would have completely embraced his Baratheon "heritage", spending some time on Storm's End with his uncle Renly.

Maybe Little Tommen spending some time with Stannis on Dragonstone as a contemporary for his cousin Shireen.

Joffrey isn't bad because he's a Lannister. He's bad because he's a sociopath. Tommen and Myrcella had the same insane mother, the same Lannister identity, yet are not like Joffrey at all.

[Robert the Great]

That's where my long term question comes into play. What do the Lannisters do once Joffrey's son got married? It has to end at some point.

I think the whole joffrey-tywin relationship wasn't going to last long. When joffrey came of age he'd probably have replaced Tywin with Mace as soon as possible. Joffrey like Aerys would not have enjoyed Tywin's constant presence and emasculating character in general.

[Stormland's Fury]

Joffrey isn't bad because he's a Lannister. He's bad because he's a sociopath. Tommen and Myrcella had the same insane mother, the same Lannister identity, yet are not like Joffrey at all.

I explained before that I never blamed the Lannisters for Joffrey. I meant the political consequences of letting Joffrey act like a Lannister and being closer to his mother's family then his father's.