What would have happened if Joffrey and co. wouldn't have been "lannisterised"?

[Stormland's Fury]

I think the whole joffrey-tywin relationship wasn't going to last long. When joffrey came of age he'd probably have replaced Tywin with Mace as soon as possible. Joffrey like Aerys would not have enjoyed Tywin's constant presence and emasculating character in general.

I wonder who the Baratheons would have Joffrey married to? Probably Margaery anyway because of Renly and yes Mace would be on the council by then.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Joffrey isn't bad because he's a Lannister. He's bad because he's a sociopath. Tommen and Myrcella had the same insane mother, the same Lannister identity, yet are not like Joffrey at all.

Tommen and Myrcella weren't raised to be King or Queen, entitled to do anything they like. Look at how different Cersei treated Joffrey from Tommen.

Joffrey: "you're my sweet beautiful King, yes, you can. Yes, yes, everything you like".

Tommen: "No, you can't. No, don't do that. No, that will be bad for you. Yep, Joffrey was a better King".

[MyaStoned]

I explained before that I never blamed the Lannisters for Joffrey. I meant the political consequences of letting Joffrey act like a Lannister and being closer to his mother's family then his father's.

Who was going to control how he acted? He's a sociopath. Nobody 'let' him act any way. People like that aren't 'allowed' or 'not allowed' to do things, they just do what they will. They don't take teaching or orders or punishments.

As for who he was close to, I don't see much evidence in the books that he's close to anybody other than Cersei. We see no great love for him from Jaime after he's dead, so they probably weren't close. And we know Tywin and the three Baratheon brothers didn't like him, let alone love him. Joffrey is a monster - nobody likes him. Nobody wants to be close to him. The only people he's 'close' to are his mother and the people who are in service to his mother or his family. Stannis's likely disgust with Joffrey is very probably what first caused him to launch his investigations. Could you imagine if they'd tried to get him to mentor him? He would literally have ended up killing the boy and getting executed.

[MyaStoned]

Tommen and Myrcella weren't raised to be King or Queen, entitled to do anything they like. Look at how different Cersei treated Joffrey from Tommen.

Joffrey: "you're my sweet beautiful King, yes, you can. Yes, yes, everything you like".

Tommen: "No, you can't. No, don't do that. No, that will be bad for you. Yep, Joffrey was a better King".

If you think Joffrey was like that because of how he was raised, I don't know what to tell you. Martin includes enough evidence to strongly suggest that Joff was just a born psycho.

[MyaStoned]

I will say that there's a streak of monstrousness, of wanton cruelty for its own sake, that begins with Tywin and gets worse with Cersei and is at its worst with Joffrey. So there's symbolically a biological element to it all. I suppose we should just be grateful Joff didn't reproduce.

[Ramsay Gimp]

I always thought making Joffrey a psycho was a bit of a narrative copout by GRRM. The character is great and his nastiness is crucial to how major events unfolded, but Ned's dilemma might have been more interesting if Tommen was the first-born, or Joff was a good lad.

Would we have still rooted for him, even with the incest reveal?

[Stormland's Fury]

Who was going to control how he acted? He's a sociopath. Nobody 'let' him act any way. People like that aren't 'allowed' or 'not allowed' to do things, they just do what they will. They don't take teaching or orders or punishments.

As for who he was close to, I don't see much evidence in the books that he's close to anybody other than Cersei. We see no great love for him from Jaime after he's dead, so they probably weren't close. And we know Tywin and the three Baratheon brothers didn't like him, let alone love him. Joffrey is a monster - nobody likes him. Nobody wants to be close to him. The only people he's 'close' to are his mother and the people who are in service to his mother or his family. Stannis's likely disgust with Joffrey is very probably what first caused him to launch his investigations. Could you imagine if they'd tried to get him to mentor him? He would literally have ended up killing the boy and getting executed.

Sorry, but you are discussing here a question I didn't ask. This isn't about Joffrey as a person.

[MyaStoned]

Not if he'd killed Ned, which he would have to have done for the story to take place.

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

While I think nurture made him worse, I see a certain bloodlust and sociopathy in Joffrey's actions and history that show a nature problem. That he was a sociopath with a bloodlust.

Cersei is a bad influence so less Cersei influence would be a good thing, I guess. But this different Joffrey would still have those bloodlust elements, and would still know of the story of Robert Baratheon the powerful warrior and want to prove himself. Being prince for the throne would also not be good for his ego and putting restraints on himself.

[MyaStoned]

Sorry, but you are discussing here a question I didn't ask. This isn't about Joffrey as a person.

Then what is it about? I was explaining why Joffrey couldn't have been 'Baratheonized'. They did not want him around. Nobody wanted him around but Cersei and nobody would spend time with him but Cersei and people whose living depended on taking orders from her. That doesn't describe the Baratheons bros or their households.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

If you think Joffrey was like that because of how he was raised, I don't know what to tell you. Martin includes enough evidence to strongly suggest that Joff was just a born psycho.

There is always strong evidence for anything people like to believe if you look for it, really.

But my point is that, whether he was born that way or not, there is also PROOF, no suggestions, that he was raised different from his brother and sister by Cersei. Tommen is practically terrified of Joffrey (he said that to Jaime) and Cersei never did anything to defend the little boy, Joffrey killed animals for pleasure while Cersei barely allowed Tommen to have a kitten. Also, Joffrey insulted Tommen and Myrcella and Cersei never told him to actually care for them.

So, I wouldn't discard bad parenting as an explanation of Joffrey's behaviour because the evidence is also there, even more clear than simply have been born mad. The Targaryen were crazy due to incest because it was not just once isolated case: they were several of them while Joffrey is the only Lannister who actually is cruel and prone to cruelty since a kid without any reason. Cersei could count, I guess, but the incident with Mellara was a consequence of the girls hearing about the prophecy and Cersei being raised to believe he's better than anything else. Remember she was told she would be marry a Prince.

[averde]

The only difference I foresee is maybe Renly doesn't crown himself. If the heirs like him more he wouldn't have felt that his power was being threatened.

Joffrey madness is just that madness, how he was raised didn't help but it's not the cause. Incest is. Tommen and Myrcella aren't dissecting cats as children. I don't understand the people who dispute that incest isn't a problem in Martins universe, it causes mental defects that would lead to "madness" even the ASOIAF wiki acknowledges incest as the likely cause of the Targ madness.

[Stormland's Fury]

Then what is it about? I was explaining why Joffrey couldn't have been 'Baratheonized'. They did not want him around. Nobody wanted him around but Cersei and nobody would spend time with him but Cersei and people whose living depended on taking orders from her. That doesn't describe the Baratheons bros or their households.

I explained it already before but I give you an example to clarify and simplify: Publicy he was seen more as Lannister than a Baratheon, dressing even in Lannister colors at times etc. Something that no male of a major house would do. Robb Stark would never have run around in Tully colors.

So Joffrey of House Baratheon chops off Ned Starks head. As a consequence the Lannisters as a family get the blame. That wouldn't have happened if Joff was simply a traditional Baratheon. in fact it would have different consequences altogether if he was more like a Baratheon.

It's not about Joffrey and his personality it is what he stands for.

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

I explained it already before but I give you an example to clarify and simplify: Publicy he was seen more as Lannister than a Baratheon, dressing even in Lannister colors at times etc. Something that no male of a major house would do. Robb Stark would never have run around in Tully colors.

So Joffrey of House Baratheon chops off Ned Starks head. As a consequence the Lannisters as a family get the blame. That wouldn't have happened if Joff was simply a traditional Baratheon. in fact it would have different consequences altogether if he was more like a Baratheon.

It's not about Joffrey and his personality it is what he stands for.

To change the perception of Joffrey you don't merely have to change Joffrey himself self identifying as Baratheon more, but more importantly change the perception of the Lannisters, especially Cersei.

Several people including Stannis know of Jaime and Cersei incest. Jon Arryn dies, and people like Stannis or Renly are going to be suspicious of Cersei. Then there is the whole thing with Bran falling after seeing a secret, Robert dying, Ned dying. Cersei Lannister being a rival to the Baratheons, and you can see the problem.

Ultimately events, such as how Joffrey was conceived or Cersei's actions, are poised to put the Baratheons and their allies against Joffrey and the Lannisters in support of him. But even the Joffrey of our story considered Robert his father.

It is hard for outsiders who dislike the Lannisters to not see a Lannister regime of someone who they consider fully Lannister, even of a Joffrey identifying more as Baratheon, as Baratheon.

To change that perception, What is key is to somehow have Joffrey be supported by Baratheons as well and for the secret to not come out and for Cersei and the Baratheons to have a better relationship or for Cersei to die first or something. I don't think any of this can work out. He is the creation of two Lannisters, several people know of this and can learn of it, even if Joffrey was more of a Baratheon.

[MyaStoned]

I explained it already before but I give you an example to clarify and simplify: Publicy he was seen more as Lannister than a Baratheon, dressing even in Lannister colors at times etc. Something that no male of a major house would do. Robb Stark would never have run around in Tully colors.

So Joffrey of House Baratheon chops off Ned Starks head. As a consequence the Lannisters as a family get the blame. That wouldn't have happened if Joff was simply a traditional Baratheon. in fact it would have different consequences altogether if he was more like a Baratheon.

It's not about Joffrey and his personality it is what he stands for.

He looks and acts nothing like a Baratheon. Nobody's going to associate anything he does with anything but the Lannisters no matter what he wears. And who was going to make him pretend to be a Baratheon? And WHY? Baratheons don't want him associated with them. Lannisters are vain and proud and like having the prince/king dress as a Lannister and be a Lannister. What's the point of stealing the throne if nobody knows you've done it? Besides that, as I said, nobody was going to force him to do anything he didn't feel like doing.

[Stormland's Fury]

He looks and acts nothing like a Baratheon. Nobody's going to associate anything he does with anything but the Lannisters no matter what he wears. And who was going to make him pretend to be a Baratheon? And WHY?

If is a conjunction meaning "in the event that" or "on condition of".

[Stormland's Fury]

To change the perception of Joffrey you don't merely have to change Joffrey himself self identifying as Baratheon more, but more importantly change the perception of the Lannisters, especially Cersei.

Several people including Stannis know of Jaime and Cersei incest. Jon Arryn dies, and people like Stannis or Renly are going to be suspicious of Cersei. Then there is the whole thing with Bran falling after seeing a secret, Robert dying, Ned dying. Cersei Lannister being a rival to the Baratheons, and you can see the problem.

Ultimately events, such as how Joffrey was conceived or Cersei's actions, are poised to put the Baratheons and their allies against Joffrey and the Lannisters in support of him. But even the Joffrey of our story considered Robert his father.

It is hard for outsiders who dislike the Lannisters to not see a Lannister regime of someone who they consider fully Lannister, even of a Joffrey identifying more as Baratheon, as Baratheon.

To change that perception, What is key is to somehow have Joffrey be supported by Baratheons as well and for the secret to not come out and for Cersei and the Baratheons to have a better relationship or for Cersei to die first or something. I don't think any of this can work out. He is the creation of two Lannisters, several people know of this and can learn of it, even if Joffrey was more of a Baratheon.

Yes, I am aware of that, this was just an example how it can affect the Baratheons as house. It doesn't necessarily have to be Joffrey but it could have been Tommen bonding with his father and uncles and maybe preferring Storm's End to King's Landing. Those are just some hypothetical examples and would be nice to see how it would play out.

Instead too many people just hang up themselves on how Joffrey is as a person and what affected him, which wasn't really what I was going for.

[Knight of the Teabags]

While I would not agree that Tommen was more like Robert, it does raise an interesting point though: Tommen is just as friendly as Shireen, so it doesn't have anything to do with genes apparently, as Stannis and Selyse aren't exactly parents of the year either..

Joffrey took after his mother in many aspects with some of Robert's bloodlust in the mix.

As to who Tommen takes after when he first appears in Storm of Swords Oberyn Martell tells Tyrion a story about how he and Elia visited Casterly Rock to see Baby Tyrion. What's interesting from this is that we are granted a picture of Cersai and Jaime as children.

Now little Cersai is tormenting Baby Tyrion by twisting his penis to make him cry, however little Jaime is protesting loudly trying to get her to stop. Now what would happen if you likewise gave Joffrey and Tommen a baby to look after?

Also there's the fact Tommen shows a serious interest in learning how to fight and quite unlike Joffrey he isn't put off when he takes bumps and bruises doing it. He is generally easy-going and placid, but can prove surprising single-minded when he decides he really wants to do something such as ride his pony at the Straw man or throw pennies to the commoners.

Don't let the puppy-fat fool you I think Tommen could well as much take after his father (certainly as his father as a little boy) as Joffrey takes after their mother!

[Stormland's Fury]

As to who Tommen takes after when he first appears in Storm of Swords Oberyn Martell tells Tyrion a story about how he and Elia visited Casterly Rock to see Baby Tyrion. What's interesting from this is that we are granted a picture of Cersai and Jaime as children.

Now little Cersai is tormenting Baby Tyrion by twisting his penis to make him cry, however little Jaime is protesting loudly trying to get her to stop. Now what would happen if you likewise gave Joffrey and Tommen a baby to look after?

Also there's the fact Tommen shows a serious interest in learning how to fight and quite unlike Joffrey he isn't put off when he takes bumps and bruises doing it. He is generally easy-going and placid, but can prove surprising single-minded when he decides he really wants to do something such as ride his pony at the Straw man or throw pennies to the commoners.

Don't let the puppy-fat fool you I think Tommen could well as much take after his father (certainly as his father as a little boy) as Joffrey takes after their mother!

Nice observation.

After all Genna also told Jamie that Tyrion is Tywin's son and Jamie was more like his (nicer) uncles.

Furthermore Tommen has (had) absolutely zero Baratheon influence, so this might say something.

[MyaStoned]

I'll also point out that Shireen IS a trueborn Baratheon, IS in line for big things (even before all other Baratheons start dropping like flies), yet her uncles don't seem to give a flying fig her existence, either.

Maybe that's just how the Baratheons are. Or at least in the case of disfigured little girls (whom Renly openly mocks to others) and sociopathic little Lannister-looking boys. Only Edric looks and acts the part, and Edric is taken care of.

From whichever side you argue this (ie, from how the Baratheons treated Joff, or how Joff and Cersei tried to make Joff treat the Baratheons), there's just no way this kind of pretending was going to happen. These people do not pretend in this way.