Why Balon was right not to ally with Robb

[The Santa of House Claus]

By allying with Robb, Balon would have had an ally to help him keep his independance. No, Robb can not grant or guarantee independance for the Iron Islands, but an alliance between the two would make it harder for Stannis or whoever sits the Iron Throne to conqer them. As opposed to when he rebbeled against Robert, he would have The North and the Riverlands, and possible the Vale backing him.

[DaeronDrumm]

How hard of a target can the Westerlands possibly be when their hosts are elsewhere and they're facing three Kingdoms pretty much alone (IIRC, the decision is made before the Lannister-Tyrell powerhouse gets formed.

[Lord Reaver]

I don't know whether to be amused or slightly offended at the diatribe. Ah hell, I'll go with amused. "Autistic throught process" indeed...

Here's the facts:

The North has little to offer the Ironborn, militarily. No fleet and half of more of their army is bogged down in the riverlands.

The Westerlands are completely useless to the Ironborn. Gold ? What good is that ? Sure, Balon would be rich for the short period of time until Renly or Stannis (but most likely Renly at that point in time) marched his 100k army up there. There are no natural defenses to hold them at bay. The absolute best possible outcome for Balon then would be to pillage and retreat, and then we'd have his first rebellion all over again.

In contrast the North has the ultimate of defenses: Moat Cailin. Remember, nobody has ever taken it from the south. If Balon could take and hold the North, he'd have vast land areas (which is what the ironborn lack the most) that are the most easily defended in Westeros.

Basically, the chance of Balon succeeding in winning independence was slim either way: Allying with Robb, and he'd have to chance on destroying that massive army on the field somehow, aided by the northmen. And if the Northmen decided to say "screw it all" and retreat back up Moath Cailin, he's be shit out of luck.

So, such an alliance only makes sense to Balon if he'd regarded the Starks as reliable and trustworthy allies. Needless to say he doesn't, these were after all the people who brought rape and death upon his own lands, killing and kidnapping his sons ten years earlier. Little wonder then that he goes for the alternative (and equally likely to succeed) strategy of attacking the North instead.

[Salinda]

He shouldn't have entered the war in the first place, especially for "Northern plunder"

Complete waste of time

[khalhotpie]

How hard of a target can the Westerlands possibly be when their hosts are elsewhere and they're facing three Kingdoms pretty much alone (IIRC, the decision is made before the Lannister-Tyrell powerhouse gets formed.

But the stark forces are far away from the north too.......and moat calin etc is a much easier target than casterly rock and lannisport

He shouldn't have entered the war in the first place, especially for "Northern plunder"

Complete waste of time

he wanted independence, and it seems he intended to carve part of the north out for himself

[Lord Reaver]

he wanted independence, and it seems he intended to carve part of the north out for himself

Not part. Balon intended to take all of the North. Just not all of it right away.

[Salinda]

he wanted independence, and it seems he intended to carve part of the north out for himself

And a return to the Old Way, but life on the Isles was good enough. All he did was disrupt it for no good reason really. He should have put his people first. Did he learn nothing from his first rebellion?

[Cas Stark]

What do people who "do not sow" want with the vast land areas of the North?

How is the paltry population of the Iron Islands going to even conquer the North to begin with, let alone hold it?

And if the North can't be conquered from the South then the smart thing to do is ally with the North so you can then retreat North and be safe.

[Lord Reaver]

And a return to the Old Way, but life on the Isles was good enough. All he did was disrupt it for no good reason really. He should have put his people first. Did he learn nothing from his first rebellion?

Life on the Isles was good enough eh ? Did you not pay attention when Aeron and Theon described the lives of people, even the highest of nobles on the Islands ? Here, allow me to quote:

"Nine sons had been born from the loins of Quellon Greyjoy, but only four had lived to manhood. That was the way of this cold world, where men fished the sea and dug in the ground and died, whilst women brought forth short-lived children from beds of blood and pain."

That's the reality of the Iron Islands ever since Aegon the Conqueror. Small wonder Balon is willing to risk much in order to change things up a bit.

[Lord Reaver]

What do people who "do not sow" want with the vast land areas of the North?

They sow. How many times do I have to repeat this before you dunderheads understand those are just the house words of ONE noble house, not the universal creed of the Iron Isles ?

How is the paltry population of the Iron Islands going to even conquer the North to begin with, let alone hold it?

Pray tell, where is the population of the Iron Islands described as "paltry" in the books ? If any region is descibed as thinly settled, it's the North. As for how ? Well, Balon can answer: One castle at a time.

And if the North can't be conquered from the South then the smart thing to do is ally with the North so you can then retreat North and be safe.

If the Ironborn don't hold the North, they can't very well retreat there, can they ? They'd be fugitives or supplicants to the Northmen. Personally, I think Balon would rather stay beholden to he IT than that, and I'd agree with him.

[Cas Stark]

All one has to do is look at the size of the iron islands+the fact that there are no large cities ever described to figure out that there is not much of a population.

[Roddy the Ruin]

Life on the Isles was good enough eh ? Did you not pay attention when Aeron and Theon described the lives of people, even the highest of nobles on the Islands ? Here, allow me to quote:

"Nine sons had been born from the loins of Quellon Greyjoy, but only four had lived to manhood. That was the way of this cold world, where men fished the sea and dug in the ground and died, whilst women brought forth short-lived children from beds of blood and pain."

That's the reality of the Iron Islands ever since Aegon the Conqueror. Small wonder Balon is willing to risk much in order to change things up a bit.

Yeah, I wonder what it was like before..... OH WAIT I REMEMBER! The Iron Islanders enslaved the Riverlanders to build their castles and farm their food! Aegon freed the Riverlands from the Ironborn's tyranny. It's one of the few good things he actually did.

[Salinda]

Life on the Isles was good enough eh ? Did you not pay attention when Aeron and Theon described the lives of people, even the highest of nobles on the Islands ? Here, allow me to quote:

"Nine sons had been born from the loins of Quellon Greyjoy, but only four had lived to manhood. That was the way of this cold world, where men fished the sea and dug in the ground and died, whilst women brought forth short-lived children from beds of blood and pain."

That's the reality of the Iron Islands ever since Aegon the Conqueror. Small wonder Balon is willing to risk much in order to change things up a bit.

And three sons were born from the loins of Balon Greyjoy, and all three lost to his first rebellion. So how does hosting a second improve anything? Asha's speech at the Kingsmoot (Should have been the Queensmoot) showed just how useless this Northern invasion was. If life was as you say bad, then Balon only made it worse. He needs to live in reality, the Ironborn are never going to be as great as they once were. To admit such a thing and to live by it doesn't make him inferior just realistic. To try and achieve such a lofty goal as taking over the North is like the retired athlete thinking they've still got it and end up just hurting themselves.

You can't sit here and convince me that doing nothing was not a better choice than what is going on. Euron is leading them to even bigger delusions of grandeur, no doubt he was called the maddest of all four the Greyjoy brothers for a reason. The Ironborn will not be very happy when the dust settles, and it all could have been avoided with a more neutral stance

[khalhotpie]

And a return to the Old Way, but life on the Isles was good enough. All he did was disrupt it for no good reason really. He should have put his people first. Did he learn nothing from his first rebellion?

Life wasnt good as theon said plus im sure he felt the 7 kingdoms wouldnt unite to stop him

[Salinda]

Life wasnt good as theon said plus im sure he felt the 7 kingdoms wouldnt unite to stop him

It was good enough

Going to war doesn't make it any better. Declaring independence doesn't make it any better. Doing nothing keeps things nice and stable. And it doesn't hurt his pride any more than it already has been ground into the dirt

And the Seven Kingdoms did unite, he should have learned a lesson in that. A wiser man would've

[khalhotpie]

-What do people who "do not sow" want with the vast land areas of the North?

-How is the paltry population of the Iron Islands going to even conquer the North to begin with, let alone hold it?

-And if the North can't be conquered from the South then the smart thing to do is ally with the North so you can then retreat North and be safe.

- thralls can do the sowing part......plus think of how attractive all that timber is to a shipfaring people

-maybe not all the north but enough, remember robb has gone south with at least half the norths military strength and he is cut off.

- they came from the west by sea remember not the south

[khalhotpie]

It was good enough

Going to war doesn't make it any better. Declaring independence doesn't make it any better. Doing nothing keeps things nice and stable. And it doesn't hurt his pride any more than it already has been ground into the dirt

And the Seven Kingdoms did unite, he should have learned a lesson in that. A wiser man would've

Not by their reckoning hence the reaving, plus a leader who doesnt focus warriors outwards will see them turn their agression inwards

But this time things were different , 3 kingdoms at bloody war and 3 neutral ....hed be well dug in before that all got resolved

His mistake last time was attacking during a time of peace and thus being a good focus point for robert to rally his kingdoms at

[Cas Stark]

- thralls can do the sowing part......plus think of how attractive all that timber is to a shipfaring people

-maybe not all the north but enough, remember robb has gone south with at least half the norths military strength and he is cut off.

- they came from the west by sea remember not the south

I still maintain there are not enough Iron Born to hold anything but a tiny portion of the North, I mean, we see what happened, they lose and not to an army of massive size. The clock was ticking on this plan from the minute it moved beyond piracy.

There are several things Balon could have done other than ally with Robb, he chooses the worst possible idea, the one that was doomed to fail from the beginning.

[Lord Reaver]

I still maintain there are not enough Iron Born to hold anything but a tiny portion of the North, I mean, we see what happened, they lose and not to an army of massive size. The clock was ticking on this plan from the minute it moved beyond piracy.

Technically, they didn't loose. They pulled out because Balon died (by deus ex machina) to go to the Kingsmoot.

[Sullen]

It was good enough

Going to war doesn't make it any better. Declaring independence doesn't make it any better. Doing nothing keeps things nice and stable. And it doesn't hurt his pride any more than it already has been ground into the dirt

And the Seven Kingdoms did unite, he should have learned a lesson in that. A wiser man would've

Good enough? People were miserable on the Islands, people lived in famine and misery, things needed to change.

And no, going to war and capturing parts of the North would have made things better, the Isles need more land to settle and better their condition as Asha points out during the Kingsmoot and the North had those very lands ripe for the taking. I agree that declaring independence didn't make things any better though, he should have just attacked the North "in the name of the Iron Throne".