Best Military Mind on ASOIAF?

[Stormland's Fury]

Come on now, we both know besieging Renly's fortress is an attack.

A very passive one though. He had even less men, but has the ships to lay siege on a coastal castle. Should he have gone on land on the way north and show up at Renly's camp where his whole army was with him? Renly just took the fastest men with him to SE.

[marsyao]

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For another, crown or no crown, his relationship with Loras was pretty much a guarantee that the Tyrells would be his allies no matter what.

This is not true, considering Loras is only the third son of Lord of Highguarden

[Stormland's Fury]

They didn't kill him after Jon Arryn died, why would they kill him after Robert did? And in any case, all he had to do was go back to Storm's End. Nobody could touch him there.

Because Baratheons were still a presence after Jon's death, their influence declined more and more and soon the goldcloaks were even bought. Renly came to the same conclusion as his brother and skipped town with the remaining Baratheon household.

He even hoped Ned (and the Stark men) would join with him in KL to take power right on the spot. When that didn't fly he left.

[TheCrannogDweller]

And rightfully so. Stannis was the rightful King. Renly was wrong and he payed for his treason with his life.

And Renly had the bigger army. Stannis knows that Renly is gay and even teases him that Margaery will remain a virgin in his bed - so the chance that Renly could die childless is pretty good. Why not just swallow your pride, bend the knee and just wait to inherit? Hell, he didn't even have to wait - he could've just quitely taken Renly out after they had defeated the Lannisters and taken the throne.

This is not true, considering Loras is only the third son of Lord of Highguarden

He may be the third, but he is Mace's favourite son.

Because Baratheon were still a presence after Jon's death, their influence declined more and more and soon the goldcloaks were even bought. Renly came to the same conclusion as his brother and skipped town with the remaining Baratheon household.

I'm not criticizing Renly's decision to skip town - he was right to do so. I'm criticizing the wrong impression that his only two choices were stay and die or go away and crown yourself.

[Stormland's Fury]

I'm not criticizing Renly's decision to skip town - he was right to do so. I'm criticizing the wrong impression that his only two choices were stay and die or go away and crown yourself.

And I wasn't saying that he had to crown himself but it was just a very viable option considering the circumstances. ;) I still think Stannis is in the right.

[Stormland's Fury]

And Renly had the bigger army. Stannis knows that Renly is gay and even teases him that Margaery will remain a virgin in his bed - so the chance that Renly could die childless is pretty good. Why not just swallow your pride, bend the knee and just wait to inherit? Hell, he didn't even have to wait - he could've just quitely taken Renly out after they had defeated the Lannisters and taken the throne.

You have to admit that every single thing in that statement is very out-of-character for Stannis.

[TheCrannogDweller]

You have to admit that every single thing in that statement is very out-of-character for Stannis.

Oh yeah, I am painfully aware of that. :D

In the end Renly did what he did because he was Renly - and Stannis did what he did because he was Stannis.

Stannis was fully prepared to die in the battle on the next day, rather than make a compromise. It was just like Donal Noye said - he would break before he bends.

[Stormland's Fury]

Oh yeah, I am painfully aware of that. :D

In the end Renly did what he did because he was Renly - and Stannis did what he did because he was Stannis.

Stannis was fully prepared to die in the battle on the next day, rather than make a compromise. It was just like Donal Noye said - he would break before he bends.

That's the beauty of the Baratheons :P

[Blazfemur]

As much as i cant stand the pretentious little twit, for the time he was alive, militarily, Robb was good. Politically he blew.

[Minsc]

It's not really irrelevant. Stannis didn't intend to kill Renly until he rudely turned down Stannis' generous offer.

Stannis never offered any generous offer.

[marsyao]

And Renly had the bigger army. Stannis knows that Renly is gay and even teases him that Margaery will remain a virgin in his bed - so the chance that Renly could die childless is pretty good. Why not just swallow your pride, bend the knee and just wait to inherit? Hell, he didn't even have to wait - he could've just quitely taken Renly out after they had defeated the Lannisters and taken the throne.

He may be the third, but he is Mace's favourite son.

If Stannis would choose swallow his pride and bend his knees, then he is not the Stannis we know, besides according to any law we know, Renly is the one wrong here.

How do you know Loras is Mace's favorite son? Willas and Galan are both much more mature than Loras

[Blazfemur]

Stannis never offered any generous offer.

Minsc, amazing picture and tag. When the HELL is BGEE coming to android? Sorry for the topic deviation but have you heard anything?

[marsyao]

Stannis never offered any generous offer.

What do you mean? He offered that Renly can stay in small council, and be his heir if his wife does not born him a son.

[Stormland's Fury]

Stannis never offered any generous offer.

Well, except when he did.

You're a bit late too the party, but there was that quote among others.

[Minsc]

What do you mean? He offered that Renly can stay in small council, and be his heir if his wife does not born him a son.

Well, except when he did.

You're a bit late too the party, but there was that quote among others.

Stannis only offered to allow Renly to have everything he already controlled and a lower status then he currently held(heir instead of king), all the while sitting with a much smaller army then Renly.

[TheCrannogDweller]

Stannis never offered any generous offer.

He did:

Stannis pointed his shining sword at his brother. “I am not without mercy,” thundered he who was notoriously without mercy. “Nor do I wish to sully Lightbringer with a brother’s blood. For the sake of the mother who bore us both, I will give you this night to rethink your folly, Renly. Strike your banners and come to me before dawn, and I will grant you Storm’s End and your old seat on the council and even name you my heir until a son is born to me. Otherwise, I shall destroy you.”

Edit: Oh, sorry, you were arguing that the offer wasn't generous. I guess that's up for personal interpretation. :dunno:

How do you know Loras is Mace's favorite son? Willas and Galan are both much more mature than Loras

I'm pretty sure it's in the text - the reason being that Mace always wanted a tourney champion as a son - which is actually why Willas was crippled.

[sanzor]

Best commander is undeniable Tywin...that man proves and proves again that he can do plots as well as Doran and fight in battles beside his soldiers like Stannis!He is the real deal !As some have stated above he gets the bigger picture.In AGoT he knows how the war with Robb will go even saying "i'll be done with this boy ,so i can deal with Stannis !".

Robb only saw Lannister,Lannister,Lannister..he didn't think of anything else.That is not a good commander.Did he let any of his troops at Moat Cailin before Greyjoy invasion?I don't think so,because i think that when the ironborns came(Victarion's party) they took it quite easy(the bogmen are defending the neck not because Robb so they dont count). Those of you who say Robb is...nop ..it was only old Blackfish and seasoned commanders like Mallister,Umber ,and ...and dont forget Roose Bolton that gave some pretty good advices if you reread AGoT!

And don't forget Catelyn..without her idea to negotiate with Frey what wouldve Robb do?He couldn't even pass the damn Twins!He was like a baby with 10 parents near him.

Robb was the young wolf..too young for his own good.

Now next masterminds by my humble opinion are :

Jon Snow ! He proves he has it in him to conduct the fight to adjust the situation.He isn't fooled easily...Stannis practically owes everything to Jon! And don't take me with things like "if it wasnt Stannis...etc"..Jon has done his job to defend the wall ..if stupidity is too big in his own ranks (Alliser/Slynt) that is not his problem!

Another candidate would most likely be Euron..that man sent Victarion with a purpose and he seemed he knew well how to deal with his brother.He took by surprise the Reach and got pretty fast above everybody that opposed him (pre-kingsmoot).

Another mastermind which i see you people neglect is Ramsay!That man really has perspective ! He has cunning and he gained the North,and i don't see him dying anytime soon.Don't forget he had smaller army when he dealt with Rodrik Cassel(and if you say that Rodrik thought they were friends..people you know the saying : "Everything is permitted in love and war !")

Honorable mentions:

Blackfish-that man hasn't shown up his full potential but he is the badass of the riverlands !

Jaime-I really see him thinking alot more after getting maimed.He learned from his mistakes with Robb and seems well equipped for the war that will come.

Jon Con: He seems to know what to do and when...and why ...he takes most of the Stormlands without anybody to know of its presence.If that ain't a good military commander i don't know who is.And the Battle of the Bells was almost won by him.

[Pod The Impaler]

First off: I'll fully admit I was wrong that Ned would not have considered Theon a chess piece, but your entire premise is based around the fact that Balon would act entirely differently than he did and what we know his goals to be.

Of course it is a paradox: If he was declared "King In The North" and was fighting the Lannisters, he would have keep Theon as a hostage but made the same alliance offer Robb did, but with the promise Balon's son would live to be heir to the new Ironborn kingdom. Ned did not trust Balon at all, but knew better how he might tend to act; Balon did value his own blood, or else Theon would have had no value as a hostage to begin with.

Of course, if Ned would have been free (and alive) to take any actions, then the North and Riverlands, would have backed Stannis. So the whole question of whather Ned would have tried the Ironborn / Theon gambit is moot.

Robb also wanted to join Stannis, blame the Greatjon on that one.

Seriously, if Umber hadn't coerced Robb (and others) into proclaiming independence,the war could have been entirely different. Don't think Ned would be alive either way though, that one's on Joffrey no matter what.

True. Robb was gifted militarily, and was able to dominate Greatjon when Greatjon was hostile, but he did not quite know how to say "no" to an ally. Sometimes your most enthusiastic supporters can be too eager.

Greatjon was not exactly wrong regarding the North's view of the iron Throne and its claimants, but I think Ned would have been better used to making such arguments, beyond just "Stannis: it's the law". Stannis was in a way his own worst supporter, actively driving people away from his cause.

[Minsc]

Best commander is undeniable Tywin...that man proves and proves again that he can do plots as well as Doran and fight in battles beside his soldiers like Stannis!He is the real deal !As some have stated above he gets the bigger picture.In AGoT he knows how the war with Robb will go even saying "i'll be done with this boy ,so i can deal with Stannis !".

Tywin hardly knew how the war was going to go, instead Robb constantly one upped him by capturing Jaime, demolishing Stafford and his army, and otherwise raiding all around the West. Simply, without a few plot elements that had no connection to Tywin's actions he would have been defeated.

[TheCrannogDweller]

Best commander is undeniable Tywin...that man proves and proves again that he can do plots as well as Doran and fight in battles beside his soldiers like Stannis!He is the real deal !As some have stated above he gets the bigger picture.In AGoT he knows how the war with Robb will go even saying "i'll be done with this boy ,so i can deal with Stannis !".

Robb only saw Lannister,Lannister,Lannister..he didn't think of anything else.That is not a good commander.Did he let any of his troops at Moat Cailin before Greyjoy invasion?I don't think so,because i think that when the ironborns came(Victarion's party) they took it quite easy(the bogmen are defending the neck not because Robb so they dont count). Those of you who say Robb is...nop ..it was only old Blackfish and seasoned commanders like Mallister,Umber ,and ...and dont forget Roose Bolton that gave some pretty good advices if you reread AGoT!

There are so many wrong claims in this statement that I don't even know where to begin...

1. Tywin didn't know how the war with Robb will go - in fact, Robb was two steps ahead of him the entire time. The Red Wedding was pretty much served to him on a silver platter by Roose and Walder.

2. Neither Tywin, nor Stannis fight beside their men - they both prefer commanding their armies from the rear.

3. Robb didn't only see "Lannister, Lannister" - he correctly recognized that they were his enemy and tried to make alliances with other people against them.

4. Robb did leave a garrison at Moat Cailin - which in the end didn't really matter, because the Ironborn attacked from the North, not from the South.

5. Yes, the "bogmen" are defending the Neck because Robb ordered them.

6. Robb did have the help of many seasoned commanders, but that doesn't change the fact that the overall strategy was mostly his doing. He made the decisions, not his advisers.

7. Roose didn't really advise Robb that much - in fact, from the moment they split at the Twins, every move Roose made (after the Green Fork) was an intentional blunder.