Is Melisandre Plotting to Claim Mance is Azor Ahai? *WoW SPOILER*

[Russellstiltskin]

After all, "hundreds" saw "him" burn...And she seems like she's willing to do anything to initiate the prophecy, including manufacture it. She also seems to be doubting Stannis a bit at times, and Lightbringer doesn't produce heat (as Aemon mentions on the voyage to Oldtown) which makes you wonder about the sword and if she's trying to manipulate Stannis for some as yet unknown reason...This fits with the letter in more ways than one...

[LadyoftheNorth72]

I've reread Mel's POV chapter where she is trying to find Stannis a dozen times, looking for hints or clues that she doubts Stannis is AAR or that someone else could possibly be. It's just not there. Despite the disparity between the real Lightbringer (and its forging) vs Stannis's shiny imitation, despite all the glamours and twisting of facts and her own visions that she's had to do to cling to her belief, I think Mel is still 100% convinced of it being Stannis - probably in part *because* of everything she has invested in it.

If R'hollor himself appeared in front of her to tell her she's got it wrong, I think she would convince herself that it had actually been the Other somehow trying to throw her off the right track.

If Stannis is not AAR, then Mel would have to face so many unpleasant realities she'd probably go flat batsnot crazy. She's burned and killed people to get Stannis where he is, laid with him to produce shadow babies, and worst of all (in her mind) wasted all her amazing talents and invaluable time on the wrong person. I don't think she will ever be able/willing to face that while she lives.

[Cry_Havoc]

I've reread Mel's POV chapter where she is trying to find Stannis a dozen times, looking for hints or clues that she doubts Stannis is AAR or that someone else could possibly be. It's just not there. Despite the disparity between the real Lightbringer (and its forging) vs Stannis's shiny imitation, despite all the glamours and twisting of facts and her own visions that she's had to do to cling to her belief, I think Mel is still 100% convinced of it being Stannis - probably in part *because* of everything she has invested in it.

If R'hollor himself appeared in front of her to tell her she's got it wrong, I think she would convince herself that it had actually been the Other somehow trying to throw her off the right track.

If Stannis is not AAR, then Mel would have to face so many unpleasant realities she'd probably go flat batsnot crazy. She's burned and killed people to get Stannis where he is, laid with him to produce shadow babies, and worst of all (in her mind) wasted all her amazing talents and invaluable time on the wrong person. I don't think she will ever be able/willing to face that while she lives.

Great points, however, even after all that I believe she would be able to coldly rationalize all that guilt away. To me, Mel is one of the most dangerous characters in ASOIF due to her misinterpretations and her ability to influence others.

[roxWolfox]

Unless she believes that what she sees in the fires makes Mance a representation of 'snow', I'd say no.

[Shireen Shireen]

Why Mance?

At the moment I think Mel is genuine in her belief in Stannis.

If something, say a new vision in the flames, convinces her someone else is AAR, I don't think she'd have any qualms about flicking Stannis. After all the red god sent her the visions which brought her to Stannis, perhaps he was just a stepping stone to the real AAR.

[Russellstiltskin]

Well I was thinking that she has done what she's done so far as a potential stepping stone to her real aim(s)...she could have been lying to Stannis the whole time, telling him he is AAR to make him more tractable...And if she did believe it at one point, something could have (vision in her fires that has not yet been revealed) convinced her otherwise...She mentions Stannis' growing weakness, and perhaps she is perturbed he is not as fervent a believer as she would like, not to mention that he sometimes values other counsel over hers and did not take her with him. She also seems overly enamored with Mance...but hey, I'm a noob and still re-reading...at times there's so much going on it's easy to get confused. Can you imagine if the Appendix never existed? lol

[chris_warrior]

i think once we get Jon back (perhaps, as some have suggested, with the Kiss), Mel will switch her allegiance to him.

[lelele]

I think her unwillingness to depart from Stannis is because she has a personal and emotional investment herself. Maybe she has come to like Stannis. Maybe she has become a King's Man(or Woman) herself. When the fire shows it's not Stannis I wouldn't be surprised she says fuck it, look this guy is pure iron, he will not bend, he is just, he is lawful, he is the Mannis, if anyone can save us from the Others it's him, fuck your prophecies, I'm going with my One True King.

Or maybe not, and she ditches him when Jon Snow becomes more desirable. :leer:

[unSonofStannis]

I've reread Mel's POV chapter where she is trying to find Stannis a dozen times, looking for hints or clues that she doubts Stannis is AAR or that someone else could possibly be. It's just not there. Despite the disparity between the real Lightbringer (and its forging) vs Stannis's shiny imitation, despite all the glamours and twisting of facts and her own visions that she's had to do to cling to her belief, I think Mel is still 100% convinced of it being Stannis - probably in part *because* of everything she has invested in it.

If R'hollor himself appeared in front of her to tell her she's got it wrong, I think she would convince herself that it had actually been the Other somehow trying to throw her off the right track.

If Stannis is not AAR, then Mel would have to face so many unpleasant realities she'd probably go flat batsnot crazy. She's burned and killed people to get Stannis where he is, laid with him to produce shadow babies, and worst of all (in her mind) wasted all her amazing talents and invaluable time on the wrong person. I don't think she will ever be able/willing to face that while she lives.

:agree:

[unSonofStannis]

I think her unwillingness to depart from Stannis is because she has a personal and emotional investment herself. Maybe she has come to like Stannis. Maybe she has become a King's Man(or Woman) herself. When the fire shows it's not Stannis I wouldn't be surprised she says fuck it, look this guy is pure iron, he will not break, he is just and fair, he is the Mannis, if anyone can save us from the Others it's him, fuck your prophecies, I'm going with my One True King.

Or maybe not, and she ditches him when Jon Snow becomes more desirable. :leer:

With Mel, the Red God comes first.

[LordStoneheart]

I would never take Melisandre seriously at all if she did this, even less than I do now.

If MelMel takes this hint

I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R’hllor shows me only Snow

and then is all like "I bet its Mance!!!" I think it's safe to say she's completely missing every point of her visions.

[ThunderG]

I would never take Melisandre seriously at all if she did this, even less than I do now.

If MelMel takes this hint

and then is all like "I bet its Mance!!!" I think it's safe to say she's completely missing every point of her visions.

Ramsay was kind of reborn amidst the smoke of Winterfell. Guess someone shed a tear as well.

[Rhaquentis]

I think she will believe in Stannis until he dies. Then she'll start doubting.

[Russellstiltskin]

I never thought that Mel would believe it herself, just present it as fact to further her own aims. But things occur to me and I go with them, often only to realize that they are either impossible or unlikely.