explaining the Daenerys odium

[Audrey Arryn]

No, she didn't find dragons but she did give birth to 5 children with warg-abilities one of whom is also a powerful greenseer. The fact that 6 Stark children in the same generation have warg-powers is by far the biggest magical anomality in the whole story, a lot more unlikely than one Targ being able to hatch dragons after a century of failed attempts.

And Dany didn't find dragons with Drogo's bones either. She was gifted dragon eggs (valueable and nice to look at but otherwise pretty useless on their own) and used her own innate power/abilities to hatch them. It was also a once in a lifetime moment where Rhaego's death, Drogo's mercy-killing, sacrificing MMD and walking into the pyre all seemed to have played a role, so Dany had to lose basically everyone she loved and risk her own life to get her dragons.

The Starks OTOH were randomly riding through a forest and just happened to find 6 dire wolf puppies, the first dire wolves seen south of the Wall in practically forever. Why not 5 as they originally thought? Then Jon would have truly been selfless by giving up his chance to have his own wolf. But no, one minute later Jon gets his own plot gift puppy. Or why not 7? Then Theon could also have gotten one. I mean, was there ever a person more in need of a dire wolf to warn him that 'Reek' shouldn't be trusted and that he needs to stay the hell away from him? But no, he is an arrogant as.shole and can never be a true Stark anyway, so no puppy for Theon. Just one puppy each for every Stark child.

Great, now that they all have their magical plot gifts the kids need to bond with them. Dany has lots of trouble taming her dragons. They are pretty much doing what they want and get wilder and more dangerous the older they get. At the end of Dance she possibly managed to bond with Drogon, at least in so far as he now allows her to ride on his back while he flies wherever he wants to go.

The dire wolves OTOH basically act like super-loyal, super-intelligent, super-powerful dogs from the get go and even little 4yo Rickon seems to have no problems to give Shaggydog commands.

Oh and Stannis has a Red Priestess who thinks he's AAR and kills his enemies with shadow babies. So what exactly are Dany's unfair magical advantages again?

The Wildlings take great pride in being free people. They know their life lacks the comfort of the lives of people south of the wall but they still look down on the kneelers. By agreeing with Jon's demands they have to give up part of their freedom and they hate that they have to do that just to survive.

The slaves are considered other people's property and are treated in incredibly inhumane ways. As a consequence of their lifelong suffering they are willing to die for their chance at freedom. Funnily enough Tormund and Co would probably be the first ones to understand what the freed men in SB see in Dany.

So a 13yo girl being sold by her brother to a 30 yo Dothraki Khal who rapes her night after night until she considers committing suicide is now considered having plot armor? That their relationship worked out as "well" as it did was mainly Dany's own work. Drogo just ignored her except to have sex with her each night while she was silently crying. Then Dany learned the language and the Dothraki customs and she became assertive until Drogo slowly started to respect her. Still he had all the power in the relationship and Dany had to plead and beg whenever she wanted something. And when she finally convinced herself that she was happy with her life (in all it's Stockholm Syndrom-y glory) she lost their baby and had to kill Drogo with her own hands to spare him a life as a shell of his former self.

And for all her troubles she gained a tiny khalasar made up of people too young to fight, too old to fight, too weak to fight and her three blood riders. Not to mention that even the strongest khalasars would stand no chance against a real Westerosi army, but what does any of this even matter when the real problem here is that Dany is just so damn lucky and protected all the time.

I don't know what it is but the State of Daenyal is obviously a real thing. But seriously, if you try to look at it objectively then Dany is actually just one of many grey characters in ASOIAF. She is also one of the main characters so like Jon and Tyrion she has a better chance to be in all 7 books than someone like Ned or Robb ever had.

She's made some good choices as well as some terrible choices. Sometimes she is lucky, sometimes she has to suffer extremely. IMO she is a similar shade of grey as Jaime, Stannis, Arya, Tyrion or Robb.

And where plot armor is concerned, while all the main characters have some to even have survived this far Tyrion remains the king of plot armor imo. He is a dwarf who has trouble walking up stairs without getting cramps in his legs but at the same time he was lucky enough to survive two major battles and two trials by combat. He shows no symptoms of grey scale and didn't fall victim to Cersei's dwarf genocide but gets himself captured by Jorah of all people who -of course- decides to take him to Dany which just happens to be where Tyrion wanted to go in the first place. And after being captured by slavers he manages to free himself, Penny and Jorah and now they are all Second Sons. Yeah right.

But in the end I don't really care about any of that because a story where Tyrion dies by falling out of the Sky Cell in his sleep or by being thrown out the Moon Door courtesy of SweetRobin and Crazy Lysa might have been more realistic but it would also be a really lame story.

https://31.media.tumblr.com/1d04cd761a6aa763c4467cb3024a19e3/tumblr_inline_n2ibepunNu1s994jp.gif

:bowdown:

[Starspear]

Go and stay go.

I'm confused: Go and stay go? ;) (probably agree with this part of your quote if what I think you mean).

This is the post people should be worshiping. Especially that first part.

The point is not about suffering or making storytelling monotonous (although...)... the point is that author's cruelty elsewhere is successful because it feels natural (as if respecting the rules of the world he's set down). However, when his other characters aren't under the same duress of those rules, then the cruelty elsewhere comes off as artificial. Suffering or maiming has nothing to do with it... the comparisons of suffering come from the coloring that GRRM sets down.

If said consequences are not the issue... then the remaining argument is that Essos threats and characters are lame and stupid.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

No, she didn't find dragons but she did give birth to 5 children with warg-abilities one of whom is also a powerful greenseer. The fact that 6 Stark children in the same generation have warg-powers is by far the biggest magical anomality in the whole story, a lot more unlikely than one Targ being able to hatch dragons after a century of failed attempts.

And Dany didn't find dragons with Drogo's bones either. She was gifted dragon eggs (valueable and nice to look at but otherwise pretty useless on their own) and used her own innate power/abilities to hatch them. It was also a once in a lifetime moment where Rhaego's death, Drogo's mercy-killing, sacrificing MMD and walking into the pyre all seemed to have played a role, so Dany had to lose basically everyone she loved and risk her own life to get her dragons.

The Starks OTOH were randomly riding through a forest and just happened to find 6 dire wolf puppies, the first dire wolves seen south of the Wall in practically forever. Why not 5 as they originally thought? Then Jon would have truly been selfless by giving up his chance to have his own wolf. But no, one minute later Jon gets his own plot gift puppy. Or why not 7? Then Theon could also have gotten one. I mean, was there ever a person more in need of a dire wolf to warn him that 'Reek' shouldn't be trusted and that he needs to stay the hell away from him? But no, he is an arrogant as.shole and can never be a true Stark anyway, so no puppy for Theon. Just one puppy each for every Stark child.

Great, now that they all have their magical plot gifts the kids need to bond with them. Dany has lots of trouble taming her dragons. They are pretty much doing what they want and get wilder and more dangerous the older they get. At the end of Dance she possibly managed to bond with Drogon, at least in so far as he now allows her to ride on his back while he flies wherever he wants to go.

The dire wolves OTOH basically act like super-loyal, super-intelligent, super-powerful dogs from the get go and even little 4yo Rickon seems to have no problems to give Shaggydog commands.

Oh and Stannis has a Red Priestess who thinks he's AAR and kills his enemies with shadow babies. So what exactly are Dany's unfair magical advantages again?

The Wildlings take great pride in being free people. They know their life lacks the comfort of the lives of people south of the wall but they still look down on the kneelers. By agreeing with Jon's demands they have to give up part of their freedom and they hate that they have to do that just to survive.

The slaves are considered other people's property and are treated in incredibly inhumane ways. As a consequence of their lifelong suffering they are willing to die for their chance at freedom. Funnily enough Tormund and Co would probably be the first ones to understand what the freed men in SB see in Dany.

So a 13yo girl being sold by her brother to a 30 yo Dothraki Khal who rapes her night after night until she considers committing suicide is now considered having plot armor? That their relationship worked out as "well" as it did was mainly Dany's own work. Drogo just ignored her except to have sex with her each night while she was silently crying. Then Dany learned the language and the Dothraki customs and she became assertive until Drogo slowly started to respect her. Still he had all the power in the relationship and Dany had to plead and beg whenever she wanted something. And when she finally convinced herself that she was happy with her life (in all it's Stockholm Syndrom-y glory) she lost their baby and had to kill Drogo with her own hands to spare him a life as a shell of his former self.

And for all her troubles she gained a tiny khalasar made up of people too young to fight, too old to fight, too weak to fight and her three blood riders. Not to mention that even the strongest khalasars would stand no chance against a real Westerosi army, but what does any of this even matter when the real problem here is that Dany is just so damn lucky and protected all the time.

I don't know what it is but the State of Daenyal is obviously a real thing. But seriously, if you try to look at it objectively then Dany is actually just one of many grey characters in ASOIAF. She is also one of the main characters so like Jon and Tyrion she has a better chance to be in all 7 books than someone like Ned or Robb ever had.

She's made some good choices as well as some terrible choices. Sometimes she is lucky, sometimes she has to suffer extremely. IMO she is a similar shade of grey as Jaime, Stannis, Arya, Tyrion or Robb.

And where plot armor is concerned, while all the main characters have some to even have survived this far Tyrion remains the king of plot armor imo. He is a dwarf who has trouble walking up stairs without getting cramps in his legs but at the same time he was lucky enough to survive two major battles and two trials by combat. He shows no symptoms of grey scale and didn't fall victim to Cersei's dwarf genocide but gets himself captured by Jorah of all people who -of course- decides to take him to Dany which just happens to be where Tyrion wanted to go in the first place. And after being captured by slavers he manages to free himself, Penny and Jorah and now they are all Second Sons. Yeah right.

But in the end I don't really care about any of that because a story where Tyrion dies by falling out of the Sky Cell in his sleep or by being thrown out the Moon Door courtesy of SweetRobin and Crazy Lysa might have been more realistic but it would also be a really lame story.

/end thread

[Starspear]

/end thread

you can just type:

/thread (no need to put "end")

But as an aside, the thread can continue.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

you can just type:

/thread (no need to put "end")

But as an aside, the thread can continue.

:rolleyes:

[The Dragons Hand]

personal consequence. Robb paid with his life, as did Ned, Catelyn and dozens of others. Cersei and Jaime lost the things most precious to them(her child, his fighting hand). Tywin lost the thing he valued most - fear and respect from others when he was found dead on a toilet and men laughed at him during his funeral. Oberyn lost his vengeance, Jon lost his family and his love.

Danny however loses nothing after AGoT(and during AGoT she was well liked) - she makes blunders and others pay for it and she escapes free.

Dany lost Rhaego and Drogo. If you're going to claim Cersei has experience lose because she lost Joffrey than Rhaego and Drogo count as well.

[The Dragons Hand]

Jaime lost his hand. Will never get it back.

Cersei lost her pride, honor, glamor. Never getting it back.

Robb lost life and kingdom. Never getting it back.

I think that is what is meant by loss.

Yes, she feels a compassion for her "children," but she also moves along without thinking twice - intact. That's where it becomes difficult in comparision to other characters, imo.

Jaime is learning to live with his lack of hand. And G.R.R.M loves outsiders and cripples so I doubt he's going to die.

Cersei loses reputation. Painful, surely, but it doesn't seem up there with Jaime losing his hand, Ned his head, and the red wedding.

Edit

she can yet lose a lot:

- life

- dragons (for good)

- health

and a lot more...

I would like to hear the "Lot more" Dragons? Sure. Health and life? That seems awfully unpersonal.

[Starspear]

Dany lost Rhaego and Drogo. If you're going to claim Cersei has experience lose because she lost Joffrey than Rhaego and Drogo count as well.

Well, it was a while back.... but the discussion mainly focuses on post-AGOT...

BTW - she killed Drogo. And unwittingly, Rhaego.

[The Dragons Hand]

Well, it was a while back.... but the discussion mainly focuses on post-AGOT...

BTW - she killed Drogo. And unwittingly, Rhaego.

Yeah with Drogo. He could've died otherwise but she basically guaranteed it. As with Rhaego it was Jorah who brought her to MMD, but again at her request. How are you supposed to expect somebody you saved from several rapes wants to murder your family I don't know but it is her fault for trusting MMD.

The "Post-AGoT" Strikes me as an arbitrary restriction.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Well, it was a while back.... but the discussion mainly focuses on post-AGOT...

BTW - she killed Drogo. And unwittingly, Rhaego.

Dany killed Rhaego? When?

Textual evidence?

[The Dragons Hand]

Dany killed Rhaego? When?

Textual evidence?

When she asked Jorah to bring her into the tent with MMD. When she asked for MMD to heal Drogo she gets hit with the blood which could connect he to the ritual.

And in the HBO adaption I called this as it happens when they talk about the sacrifice and MMD's actress looks intently at Emilia Clarke's stomach.

Edit: I'd imagine it's in her second or third last chapter in AGoT

[The Dragons Hand]

I think Mesmerized hit it on the head. Dany starts from nothing builds up, is forced to trade for dragons, spends the second book getting reminded of how backing her is a gigantic gamble, third book she sets out does some stuff gets some stuff, fifth book it bites her in the ass.

Meanwhile Aegon gets the golden company because he asks nicely and immediately gets to siege Westeros when his suffering is minimal, especially considering the blackfyre/brightflame theory. I don't mind this but if we're judging characters value based upon how much suffering they have received in each category Dany shouldn't be as reviled as she is. Not everyone can be Theon fuckin' Greyjoy and lose their fathers love, adopted families trust, adopted family members, teeth, hair, hygiene, persona, toes, fingers, their personal Greyjoy's, etc.

"Do you know pain, Lady Stormborn?"

"Oh yeah, used to be around me all the time but now he only drops in every few days or so and that kind of concerns me."

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

When she asked Jorah to bring her into the tent with MMD. When she asked for MMD to heal Drogo she gets hit with the blood which could connect he to the ritual.

And in the HBO adaption I called this as it happens when they talk about the sacrifice and MMD's actress looks intently at Emilia Clarke's stomach.

Edit: I'd imagine it's in her second or third last chapter in AGoT

Rhaego did die as a sacrifice for one of the dragons but Dany didn't kill him.

[Nictarion]

Maybe some don't like her because they like other characters like Jon better and the thought of someone else being more important to the story irks them.

I do think there's some truth in this. I love Dany but I know she isn't going to be the end all be all of the story. Jon, Bran, Tyrion, and many others will be hugely important imo. I sometimes get the feel some hardcore Jon fans think the story is all setting up to be only about him. Which contradicts the author who has said there is no main character.

[Nictarion]

Rhaego did die as a sacrifice for one of the dragons but Dany didn't kill him.

Exactly. It wasn't even Dany's choice to go in the tent anyway, she was too weak to speak at that point. Jorah makes the decision to carry her into the tent.

[Starspear]

Rhaego did die as a sacrifice for one of the dragons but Dany didn't kill him.

hence usage of "unwittingly" in my post. MMD tricked her with language, but Dany agreed to the blood sacrifice. And she trusted MMD over her own Khal. Unwittingly.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

hence usage of "unwittingly" in my post. MMD tricked her with language, but Dany agreed to the blood sacrifice.

But why say she killed Rhaego at all?

[The Dragons Hand]

Exactly. It wasn't even Dany's choice to go in the tent anyway, she was too weak to speak at that point. Jorah makes the decision to carry her into the tent.

hence usage of "unwittingly" in my post. MMD tricked her with language, but Dany agreed to the blood sacrifice. And she trusted MMD over her own Khal. Unwittingly.

Two things posted at the same time with conflicting views.

[Starspear]

I do think there's some truth in this. I love Dany but I know she isn't going to be the end all be all of the story. Jon, Bran, Tyrion, and many others will be hugely important imo. I sometimes get the feel some hardcore Jon fans think the story is all setting up to be only about him. Which contradicts the author who has said there is no main character.

Nothing to do with loving one character more than another... and no one's here to make anyone not like a character either. Just laying it out as it is.

[The Dragons Hand]

When G.R.R.M finishes the series we can call who he favorited. Until then it is speculation. I can say that I think Dany is in the middle of serious readjustment, Tyrion won't make it to the end, Jon is bathing in prophecies, but I don't really know.