A falcon knight, or clansman?

[barmyscouser]

I'm generally more sympathetic towards the clansmen. But what troubles me is that the clans are well armed and standing between the Knights of the Vale and the Twins. Once Tommen calls his banners to deal with fAegon the whole Riverlands are free for the taking. Sansa could charm the Vale Lords, but I'm less certain about Timett son of Timett. So that's a complication.

I wonder if terraced agriculture would work in the Mountains of the Moon.

[The Fourth Head]

I have sympathy for both. The Clansmen have to pillage to survive, and Vale society requires the falcon knights to protect their people.

Right now though, supporting the Clansmen looks like a dead end. The majority of people living in the vale would suffer under clansmen rule. Men could not grow crops without having them all burned down and being murdered, their daughters stolen, and their livestock butchered. Ok- so LF and Corbray are vile, and most of the peasants crops go to their "protectors" who own their land, but still, you have to say, the majority are better off as it is currently.

I'm curious to see how Winter will change the picture though. I can see my sympathies changing. For all we know, people may well be safer from white walkers by worshipping heart-trees and making sacrifices and perhaps even an element of canniballism. If it's that, or extinction, or being turned into a wight, then I'm sure most will do as Bran did, chow down, and be all the better for it.

If you have House Royce trying to kill you on one side for eating the dead just to survive, the white walkers bearing down on you, and the clansmen perhaps sacrificing and thriving, then the theory that the majority are better off under Falcon rule could be turned on it's head.

[Veltigar]

You cares if their poor? Join the kingdom like Royces or leave to beyond the wall or go east. Simple staying and murdering and raping is not their only option.

If someone was to invade your homeland and force you to either convert and thus betray all your believes) or die, wouldn't you pick up arms and resist with every fiber in your body?

[Stormland's Fury]

If someone was to invade your homeland and force you to either convert and thus betray all your believes) or die, wouldn't you pick up arms and resist with every fiber in your body?

That invasion happened quite some time ago though as the Falcon Kings ruled over the Vale for centuries and the fact that the clansmen are still around means that they get tolerated at best or else they would have been exterminated or assimilated at some point.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

The knights of the Vale. It's the only way towards peace.

Im American, so the choice is obvious...

...barbarian!

Native? Otherwise you just judged yourself a criminal entitled to nothing you own.

[Wmarshal]

If someone was to invade your homeland and force you to either convert and thus betray all your believes) or die, wouldn't you pick up arms and resist with every fiber in your body?

Seeing as they, the clansmen, are not doing that at all but instead murdering and raping I say no.

[Veltigar]

That invasion happened quite some time ago though as the Falcon Kings reigned over the Vale for centuries and the fact that the clansmen are still around means that they get tolerated at best or else they would have been exterminated or assimilated at some point.

More like the Vale Lords can't destroy them. The Clansmen control the mountains and seem quite apt at guerrilla warfare. In an open field the knights would make minced meat of them, but they aren't strong enough to go up into the Mountains and root them out. And thus the conflict keeps rages on. The Clansmen need their raids to survive and the Vale Lords can't go up in the Mountains and root them out. At this point the best thing for both parties would be a truce. Offer the Clansmen land and food to stop raiding, let them keep their old structure, arrange some marriages and take some hostages.

Basically copy the Starks treatment of the Northern Mountain Clans.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

If someone was to invade your homeland and force you to either convert and thus betray all your believes) or die, wouldn't you pick up arms and resist with every fiber in your body?

Probably. But if my great-great-great-times-100-grandchildren would still do the same, I'd side with the other guys.

[Veltigar]

Seeing as they, the clansmen, are not doing that at all but instead murdering and raping I say no.

Acts of war. It's not like the Vale Lords would give in when the Clansmen were to organize a sit-in or sing some protest songs.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

More like the Vale Lords can't destroy them. The Clansmen control the mountains and seem quite apt at guerrilla warfare. In an open field the knights would make minced meat of them, but they aren't strong enough to go up into the Mountains and root them out. And thus the conflict keeps rages on. The Clansmen need their raids to survive and the Vale Lords can't go up in the Mountains and root them out. At this point the best thing for both parties would be a truce. Offer the Clansmen land and food to stop raiding, let them keep their old structure, arrange some marriages and take some hostages.

Basically copy the Starks treatment of the Northern Mountain Clans.

I'm quite sure that this happened every couple generation. Apparently to no avail. Or rather, it worked on a lot of clansmen, who are now indistinguishable from the other inhabitants of the Vale and subject to the raids by the idiots who didn't take the offer.

[Wmarshal]

More like the Vale Lords can't destroy them. The Clansmen control the mountains and seem quite apt at guerrilla warfare. In an open field the knights would make minced meat of them, but they aren't strong enough to go up into the Mountains and root them out. And thus the conflict keeps rages on. The Clansmen need their raids to survive and the Vale Lords can't go up in the Mountains and root them out. At this point the best thing for both parties would be a truce. Offer the Clansmen land and food to stop raiding, let them keep their old structure, arrange some marriages and take some hostages.

Basically copy the Starks treatment of the Northern Mountain Clans.

Not really no, seeing as the Valemen live in mountain areas themselves they know the land, a group of foreigners were able to beat the crap out waves of them. The clansmen aren't freedom fighters, they are murders who rape murder, offering them anything offer then leaving or bowing is to good for them.

[Stormland's Fury]

More like the Vale Lords can't destroy them. The Clansmen control the mountains and seem quite apt at guerrilla warfare. In an open field the knights would make minced meat of them, but they aren't strong enough to go up into the Mountains and root them out. And thus the conflict keeps rages on. The Clansmen need their raids to survive and the Vale Lords can't go up in the Mountains and root them out. At this point the best thing for both parties would be a truce. Offer the Clansmen land and food to stop raiding, let them keep their old structure, arrange some marriages and take some hostages.

Basically copy the Starks treatment of the Northern Mountain Clans.

The truce was what I was suggesting.

Integrate them in the Vale, with the ability to hold lands and titles and certain aspects of their culture as long as it doesn't conflict with the freedom or safety of the rest of the region.

The problem stems more that the two factions just react to each others atrocities, instead of doing something against it. If the Vale lords really saw them as a serious threat they would probably have put together some effort to root the clans out. But so far we know they are only concerned about them when they actually raid a village which the lord has to protect.

And yes the North is a good example.

[Veltigar]

Probably. But if my great-great-great-times-100-grandchildren would still do the same, I'd side with the other guys.

Well, in real life there is more than enough examples of people resisting for generations. Of course I agree that the Clans are doing it for a long time though.

I'm quite sure that this happened every couple generation. Apparently to no avail. Or rather, it worked on a lot of clansmen, who are now indistinguishable from the other inhabitants of the Vale and subject to the raids by the idiots who didn't take the offer.

I doubt it. I can see some Clanmembers leaving the mountains and settling in the Riverlands and the Vale. But I don't think there were much of them or ever really organized. I don't see any evidence that the Vale Lords have accepted Clan brides and hostages in exchange for food and autonomy from the Clansmen.

In fact I think the Clanmens way is a bit of a suicide raid. Tyrion or Catelyn notes that the Clansmen are seriously underfed IIRC. So, in case of famine they just get more daring in their raids. When they succeed they get food, when they fail they get less mouths to feed.

[Stormland's Fury]

However, I am very interested to see where the Timmett storyline goes.

I would assume that he interacts with Littlefinger in some capacity.

[Stormland's Fury]

Well, in real life there is more than enough examples of people resisting for generations. Of course I agree that the Clans are doing it for a long time though.

I think they don't really qualify as fighting invaders anymore, but fighting oppression at best. And there's no indication so far that the Vale lords go out of their way to oppress them either. They're basically just there.

[Lord Damian]

The clans of the vale are nothing more than a small, but well isolated wilding sect below the wall. They do believe in the old gods so I guess that they may be the decendents of the first men that were the kingdom of the Vale occupants before the andal invasion.

[Veltigar]

I thought the Vale Lords were descended from the First Men just like the Clansmen, so at best it's intra-racial conflict.

I don't think race is really an issue in Westeros (apart from that one Tyrell in Oldtown). It's more of a cultural thing. And the Clansmen have little in common with the Vale Lords feudal society.

[Lee-Sensei]

It's futile on a personal level, but I do think that a bit of historic understanding would do wonders for that conflict. In any case it's the knights of the Vale that need to give concessions. If they don't want incursions by the Clans, they should share the bounties of the Vale.

The Royces are doing just fine and they were there before the Andals too.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Well, in real life there is more than enough examples of people resisting for generations. Of course I agree that the Clans are doing it for a long time though.

Honestly, I don't even know who lived here 6,000 years ago. But I can tell you, whoever they were, they aren't resisting the ~50 generations of invaders any longer.

I doubt it. I can see some Clanmembers leaving the mountains and settling in the Riverlands and the Vale. But I don't think there were much of them or ever really organized. I don't see any evidence that the Vale Lords have accepted Clan brides and hostages in exchange for food and autonomy from the Clansmen.

A counterexample would be House Royce.

[Stormland's Fury]

Assuming LF isn't out of the picture by then, yes.

Well yeah ;) But he's Littlefinger, and if anyone would manage to get the Clansmen on his side then it's him. Or Tyrion.