The Others are dead CoTF that came from destroyed Weirwoods

[oursisthefury69]

As to everybody else I definitely agree with those comparing the magic of the CotF and the Others. Lets keep in mind that right before the apparent pact made with the First Men, the Children drastically crashed the Arm of Dorne to stop their migration to Westeros, so the Children definitely took violent recourse against men at some point. We also know that the Others weren't first seen until years after Weirwoods first started getting chopped down.

Now some are saying the Children and Others are 2 separate races, and some are saying the Children created the Others. I believe they're former Children mutated by some power at some point. I believe there's also plenty of reasons to believe the Children and humans gifted with their powers live on in the Weirwoods (See end of Varamyr prologue)

So I hypothesize that when the Weirwoods were cut, some of the dead Children were perhaps "set free" and took the form of the Others, maybe with the help of some of the other Children. I think the Others either way could very well just be some type of reanimated bodies that the Children skin changed into in some sort of permanent fashion. And the idea of them coming from the Weirwoods was partly inspired by a comment I saw on here recently, which pointed out how Tree-like the Hbo Others appear to be

[antipattern]

Theres plenty of evidence that Greenseers, skinchangers, and CoTF live on in the Weirwoods after their deaths (See Varamyr prologue and Brans chapters) So as far as @Antipattern and @SonofStannis are concerned I'm not to worried about you classifying it as lacking evidence, and I don't feel terribly obligated to post the quotes just to prove it to a couple of people who didn't read carefully, I know what I read. Obviously I understand there's no hard "evidence" in the text for the Others origins, its left a mystery, that's the reason for the broad hypothesis to begin with; The fact that people are borderline offended that I'm theorizing about something you aren't meant to know about yet, as opposed to contributing to 18 year old easy to figure out threads like R+L=J is strange.

I'm not offended. I just think that we should make a distinction between theories that are likely to be correct and theories that basically have a 0% chance of being accurate.

The fact that you are offended that people don't take your totally baseless theory seriously is what I regard is strange. And then to decline to defend it by saying that those who don't agree "didn't read carefully" is just delusional.

[oursisthefury69]

@Antipattern the fact that your comparing the Iron-Clad nature of the scientifically proven theory of Evolution to the textually based theory of R=L=J in the fictional ASOIAF universe is simply baffling. And I'm not sure what you think your going to stir up by repeatedly going back to your "bible is fan fiction" line; your not gona get an argument out of me 1. Because I don't really disagree and 2. because I fail to see the relevance in what your talking about. And The fact that your comparing one of my few theories to the mythology concepts of one of the worlds largest religions is both disturbing and borderline flattering

[oursisthefury69]

@Antipattern the fact that you continue to compare the Bible to my crackpot theories is the only delusional thing going on here bra

[Gwindor of Nargothrond]

I'd say that it is possible that the Others are (distantly) related to CoTF and Man at some point in history. However, I don't think they were created by or derived in any way from the CoTF with malicious intent. They appeared long after the Pact was put in place, and attacked both Man and CoTF. The fact that they are harmed by obsidian would suggest no recent relation, as the CoTF used obsidian prior to the FM invasion, if the Others had attacked previously and the CoTF had realised that obsidian was effective, being (presumably) their only enemy, using obsidian weapons would be logical.

[antipattern]

@Antipattern the fact that your comparing the Iron-Clad nature of the scientifically proven theory of Evolution to the textually based theory of R=L=J in the fictional ASOIAF universe is simply baffling. And I'm not sure what you think your going to stir up by repeatedly going back to your "bible is fan fiction" line; your not gona get an argument out of me 1. Because I don't really disagree and 2. because I fail to see the relevance in what your talking about. And The fact that your comparing one of my few theories to the mythology concepts of one of the worlds largest religions is both disturbing and borderline flattering

Sorry, I take back all of my Bible talk as it has confused the issue.

My point is simply this: your theory has no support in the text, and is therefore no more likely than the average piece of fan fiction.

If you want people to take your theory seriously, then you need to provide support from the text.

[oursisthefury69]

^Yes but don't you think its possible there was a divide amongst the Children at some point? Id say is possible since their crashing of The Arm of Dorne and their making a pact with the First Men seem to contradict each other; and some Children began to retreat into the forests after the First Men invasion, while the rest were obliterated by the Andals, so its quite possible they were divided on how they accepted/assimilated with men very early on.

[Gwindor of Nargothrond]

^Yes but don't you think its possible there was a divide amongst the Children at some point? Id say is possible since their crashing of The Arm of Dorne and their making a pact with the First Men seem to contradict each other; and some Children began to retreat into the forests after the First Men invasion, while the rest were obliterated by the Andals, so its quite possible they were divided on how they accepted/assimilated with men very early on.

(Assuming this was a response to me) It is possible, but I'd still find their weakness to obsidian, and the CoTF use of it strange if that is the case. It isn't a particularly abundant resource, you could get similar effects to most creatures with sharpened stones, which are far easier to come by. So it would presumably hold a purpose, and defence against the Others would seem, to me, to make sense.

[averde]

Theres plenty of evidence that Greenseers, skinchangers, and CoTF live on in the Weirwoods after their deaths (See Varamyr prologue and Brans chapters) So as far as @Antipattern and @SonofStannis are concerned I'm not to worried about you classifying it as lacking evidence, and I don't feel terribly obligated to post the quotes just to prove it to a couple of people who didn't read carefully, I know what I read. Obviously I understand there's no hard "evidence" in the text for the Others origins, its left a mystery, that's the reason for the broad hypothesis to begin with; The fact that people are borderline offended that I'm theorizing about something you aren't meant to know about yet, as opposed to contributing to 18 year old easy to figure out threads like R+L=J is strange.

This.

I was so confused at people's rude reactions to this thread when I began reading it that I'm hesitant to even contribute.

[oursisthefury69]

@Antipattern take back your bible talk all you want, the much more embarrassing statement was you comparing the certainty of Evolution to R=L=J; and maybe if you actually paid attention to what im saying, you'd realize that I'm knowingly broaching a subject with little textual evidence as its been left an intentional mystery by GRRM, opposed to something were suppose to have known for 18 years like R+L=J. Are we to only repeatedly discuss theory's as likely and clear-cut as Jon being Rhaegars son? (Consider that rhetorical since I have zero intentions of responding again to you )

[KING-OF-WINTERFELL]

I like the idea. I support a Save-The-Weirwood-Forest movement. What better way to promote wierwoodhugging than educating people on the consequence of deforestation - walking zombie sorcerers of evil?

:bowdown:

[oursisthefury69]

@Averde well Id encouraged you to still do so, its confused me as well

@GwindorofNargothrond I understand the line of thinking, especially considering the story's of how the children used to supply the Nights Watch with obsidian. However I could again see it as some Children trying to help men while some didn't, or even that the Others were in some way a product of their magic gone wrong which they were trying to amend by supplying obsidian

[mindchap]

To everyone who says there is no evidence whatsoever for a connection between CotF and Others, GRRM is the one who encourages these ideas:

From Various SSMs:

Is there a closer relationship between the children of the forest and the Others than there might seem to be?

Possibly, possibly. It's a topic that will be developing as the story continues, and so I can't say much more right now.

And one of my Faves:

Did the last hero ever find the Children of the Forest? What stopped the advance of the Others? Is there any relationship between the Children of the Forest and the Others?

I realize we will most likely see more of the Others later on, but that old yarn is very interesting and I don't think Old Nan is still around to finish it. Any information would be greatly appreciated.

I'm afraid these are the sorts of questions that I will be answering in the books to come, rather than divulging via email.

If you enjoy speculating about this stuff with other fans, however, check out the site at http://asoiaf.westeros.org/

It's nice to know he has no prob with our little theories. :)

[Bael's Bastard]

I don't think so. The Others didn't come after the First Men started chopping down trees, but seemingly thousands of years after, after they had long adopted them and the Old Gods.

[antipattern]

To everyone who says there is no evidence whatsoever for a connection between CotF and Others, GRRM is the one who encourages these ideas:

From Various SSMs:

And one of my Faves:

It's nice to know he has no prob with our little theories. :)

Point taken, but I didn't say there was no evidence of a connection. I said there was no evidence that they are cut down weirwood trees, which is a very specific claim.

[Gwindor of Nargothrond]

Another thought, Old Nan states that the Others can sleep for thousands of years. They've only attacked once (previously) in human history, so this would be an odd thing to say, unless the CoTF told the humans about them having attacked thousands of years in the past. This would suggest to me that any relationship between the Others and CoTF would be thousands of years prior to the FM invasion. I guess it could have just been a fact to add to the fright factor of the story, but that seems unlikely.

[Waylin Stark]

I honestly doubt the Others and the CotF are related genetically.

Like how some people theorize that Others are CotF gone evil or dabbled in too much dark magic.

[Stormland's Fury]

And they are are plotting with Hitler.... and the Legion of Doom... to assassinate Jesus.... using the Wall as a base.

[walkingWITHcersei]

You're right, he didn't say it's not a theory -- I did. In my opinion it's what he should have said, as "fan fiction" more accurately describes most of the theories referred to in this forum as "crackpot".

Theories have some sort of grounding in reality that can be tested or, in the case of the theories we're talking about, at least can be supported by referencing facts in the text. Fan fiction is something that is completely made up.

Perhaps my Bible analogy would have been more accurate if I'd said that the biblical story of creation itself is fan fiction for the history of the earth. I guess it's not a perfect comparison, but the basic idea is true: Theories (e.g. R+L = J, or evolution) can be supported by relevant facts, whereas fan fiction (e.g. the Others used to be CotF, or women were created from the ribs of the first man) have absolutely nothing to recommend them beyond the belief of their adherents.

The real similarity, though, is the style of argument that proponents of the "fan fiction"-esque theories use: namely that all theories should be regarded as equally valid because we cannot know for sure.

I'm not arguing if it's correct or not. I've posted plenty of CP myself, but I did it with some amount of textual evidence. In fact the crazier the CP the more text u need to not be a complete space case. I think X is true bc of Y is fine no matter how CP X is. Unless Y= "bc I said so that's why", and that's what is going on in this case. This makes it an invalid argument no matter if it's correct or not.

[Rippounet]

We really don't know much about the Others.

As it is, I reread the slaying by Sam last night but don't see much to add except they are obviously polar opposites to fire since they literally "melt" when struck with dragon glass.

Rereading the timeline, it's not even possible to link the Others with any other major event. By the time they arrived, the CotF and the First Men were at peace. The rise of Valyria was thousands of years later.

All we have is GRRM's quote on the subject:

The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous.

I like theories, but I really don't see anything to base one on. Fact is, they could be a hidden driving force behind everything happening in Westeros, a consequence of all the warfare, or nothing of all that. We don't even know how they will interact with dragons.

The only thing I wonder is why there are seen as such a threat if "all it takes" to kill them is dragonglass and (?) Valyrian steel. With Dany having three dragons, it seems possible to forge Valyrian steel again. I take it that the threat probably comes from their ability to bring back the dead as wights, meaning they don't have to expose themselves to invade Westeros.