Rickard Stark's Southron Ambitions

[Greymoon]

There is also Lyarra's sister Branda, and the generation before that had Berena and Alysanne Stark who are not accounted for as far as I can tell. And Edwyle had a sister who married a Royce, but theoretically might have been pregnant around the right time at Winterfell and wanting revenge.

Hey! You keep her out of this :P Branda is Alys's grandmother. Alys was just too polite to point it out to Jon..."Father's maternal grandmother was a Flint"...inwardly, Alys rolls her eyes, "Of course...cousin."...no but honestly, Alys looks like Arya, who looks like Lyanna... I don't buy that their closest blood relation goes back...6/7 5/6 generations? so there: Branda married X Karstark, father of Rickard, and Lyarra married Rickard Stark. ;) it all makes perfect sense. Rickard Karstark was named after his nuncle; and Robb really did commit kinslaying.

EDIT: six gen through Rickard, 5 gen through Lyarra.

[Hippocras]

Hey! You keep her out of this :P Branda is Alys's grandmother. Alys was just too polite to point it out to Jon..."Father's maternal grandmother was a Flint"...inwardly, Alys rolls her eyes, "Of course...cousin."...no but honestly, Alys looks like Arya, who looks like Lyanna... I don't buy that their closest blood relation goes back...6/7 generations? so there: Branda married X Karstark, father of Rickard, and Lyarra married Rickard Stark. ;) it all makes perfect sense. Rickard Karstark was named after his nuncle; and Robb really did commit kinslaying.

Did you look at the family tree someone posted? It does show recent Karstark marriages, but it was not Branda. The kinslaying label definitely has an ambiguous cut-off point. Everyone in the North is related somehow it seems, so where the line gets drawn seems to be a matter of interpretation.

[Hippocras]

TBH I am really curious if Dagon Greyjoy carried off a Stark salt wife when he raided the North. That would be an interesting twist.

[Greymoon]

Did you look at the family tree someone posted? It does show recent Karstark marriages, but it was not Branda. The kinslaying label definitely has an ambiguous cut-off point. Everyone in the North is related somehow it seems, so where the line gets drawn seems to be a matter of interpretation.

It shows one to Alys Karstak six generations ago. That is not recent. I posted it btw. :) and, tbh it's not the "final" version, there's spelling mistakes and all in there, so it needs to go through editing again -- I don't think all marriages of girl Starks have been written down, not when they didn't marry into the Stark line -- that is a Stark family tree after all, not a Royce or Karstark family tree. Notice that Edwyle’s sister is mentioned as "daughter Stark" yet we know through Cat, that she married a Royce.

Berena Stark, Alysanne Stark, Sansa Stark, Arsa Stark; not a one is noted as having married, one or two maybe didn't, but all of them? It's the same with the Stark boys. Did all them die young, join the watch? imo, it means that some marriages were left out, since they don't concern the main Stark line. The only exceptions here are Aregelle and Arrana Stark for the girls, though they show ties to Umber and Cerwyn...

[Lord Varys]

To settle the Lyanna betrothal once and for all (and this time for real).

From the App (Ned's entry):

'Of his siblings, Eddard loves his sister|Lyanna best, and when Robert conceives a passion for her and asks for her hand in marriage, he is delighted. Eddard carries the proposal to his father, Lord Rickard, who agrees to the betrothal. Eddard assures Lyanna that Robert is a good man though she questions Eddard about the bastard daughter Robert has recently fathered in the Vale.'

It also states that Ned went to the Eyrie as ward at the age of eight, and that he he and Robert continued to visit Jon long after they fostering days were over (meaning that neither Robert not Ned were in Vale when Aerys called for their heads because they were still his wards (nor had they been his wards a short time ago).

[ground_control]

To settle the Lyanna betrothal once and for all (and this time for real).

From the App (Ned's entry):

'Of his siblings, Eddard loves his sister|Lyanna best, and when Robert conceives a passion for her and asks for her hand in marriage, he is delighted. Eddard carries the proposal to his father, Lord Rickard, who agrees to the betrothal. Eddard assures Lyanna that Robert is a good man though she questions Eddard about the bastard daughter Robert has recently fathered in the Vale.'

It also states that Ned went to the Eyrie as ward at the age of eight, and that he he and Robert continued to visit Jon long after they fostering days were over (meaning that neither Robert not Ned were in Vale when Aerys called for their heads because they were still his wards (nor had they been his wards a short time ago).

1) Eww at Ned being *delighted* that his frat brother wants to tap his sister's ass.

2) Per ADWD, Ned was in the Vale when Aerys made the call (he got stuck in Sisterton on the way back from The Vale to Winterfell). That doesn't contradict his fostering being over officially, since he could have been there while visiting.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

1) Eww at Ned being *delighted* that his frat brother wants to tap his sister's ass.

His best friend and his dearly beloved sister get engaged and you think he should be upset? That means he knows his sister is getting a decent guy, and his best friend becomes his brother. I doubt he gave much thought to the fact that the marriage would have to be consummated.

[ground_control]

His best friend and his dearly beloved sister get engaged and you think he should be upset? That means he knows his sister is getting a decent guy, and his best friend becomes his brother. I doubt he gave much thought to the fact that the marriage would have to be consummated.

How does Lyanna getting engaged to Robert mean that Ned knows his sister is getting a decent guy? I just meant that I can't believe Ned would be *delighted* (the App's word, not mine) to have his sister marrying a certified poon-hound. The only "in-book" data point I have is Ned recalling his half-hearted defense of Robert to Lyanna about how Ned was sure Robert would stop whoring around after the marriage. I never got a "delighted" vibe from that scene.

[Greymoon]

I was wondering if you would be kind of enough to tell me which Lord Connington fought the Battle of the Bells? Was it Rhaegar's friend? or his father? The debate seems to arise from the fact that Rhaegar's friend is referred to as Young Lord Connington whereas the Hand who fought and lost the Battle of the Bells was Lord Connington, are they one and the same? Or was the Hand the father of Rhaegar's friend?

It's the same man in all these references.

Aerys initially replaced Lord Tywin with the elderly, amiable Lord Merryweather, a courtier who was famed for throwing lavish feasts and flattering the king shamelessly. When Robert and Ned and Jon Arryn began their rebellion, Merryweather declared them outlaws and sent commands to various lesser lords to deliver them or their heads, but never stirred from King's Landing.

His methods proved largely ineffectual.. so much so that the paranoid king suspected him of deliberately helping Robert through inaction. So he stripped Merryweather of lands, title, and office and sent him into exile, and chose a very different man for Hand -- the young, vigorous Lord Connington, a friend of Rhaegar's who had a great reputation as a warrior.

Connington assembled an army and led it into the field personally... but as you read, his methods were no more successful than Merryweather's had been.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Month/2000/08

According to that SSM quote:

Aerys killed Rickard + Brandon >> Ned + Robert + Jon Arryn rebelled >> Merryweather called for their heads... am I reading this wrong?

...where does this "shortcut" come from: Aerys killed Rickard + Brandon >> Aerys demanded for Ned and Robert's head >> Jon Arryn declared war? iirc, I've seen that taken as fact quite often around the forums. Is it fact? or assumption? It seems to contradict the SSM...

EDIT: the link was missing.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

1) Eww at Ned being *delighted* that his frat brother wants to tap his sister's ass.

2) Per ADWD, Ned was in the Vale when Aerys made the call (he got stuck in Sisterton on the way back from The Vale to Winterfell). That doesn't contradict his fostering being over officially, since he could have been there while visiting.

This SSM might explain some of Ned's visit to the Vale:

How did Ned manage to become such a paragon Northener and a close friend of Lyanna's if he spent his time in the Vale from age 8 to 18? Or did he return home at some point(when?) and was just visiting Jon Arryn prior to and after the tourney at Harrenhal?

He was fostered, not exiled. Yes, certainly he returned home. Less frequently the first few years, when he would have been performing the duties of a page and then a squire, more often and for longer periods later. During his "squire" years (he wasn't a squire in the strict sense, since he wasn't training for knighthood, but he was acting as one), he would also have accompanied Jon Arryn on many travels out of the Vale. And once he reached the age of sixteen he was a man grown, free to come to go as he liked... which would have included both time at home and in the Vale, since Jon Arryn had become a second father. The same was true of Robert, who divided his time between Storm's End and the Vale after reaching manhood, not to mention dropping in on tourneys and whatever choice fights he could find.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Month/2000/08

According to that SSM quote:

Aerys killed Rickard + Brandon >> Ned + Robert + Jon Arryn rebelled >> Merryweather called for their heads... am I reading this wrong?

...where does this "shortcut" come from: Aerys killed Rickard + Brandon >> Aerys demanded for Ned and Robert's head >> Jon Arryn declared war? iirc, I've seen that taken as fact quite often around the forums. Is it fact? or assumption? It seems to contradict the SSM...

EDIT: the link was missing.

The books state the following:

When the Mad King Aerys Targaryen had demanded their heads, the Lord of the Eyrie had raised his moon-and-falcon banners in revolt rather than give up those he had pledged to protect.

So Aerys demanded the heads, and Jon Arryn rebelled in answer.

Thus it seems that Aerys demanded the heads before the rebellion begun, and Merryweather ordered the lesser lords to send them Robert and Ned's head after the rebellion had begun. In that case, both Aerys and Merryweather, the Hand, gave the order, only at different times.

[Greymoon]

The books state the following:

So Aerys demanded the heads, and Jon Arryn rebelled in answer.

Thus it seems that Aerys demanded the heads before the rebellion begun, and Merryweather ordered the lesser lords to send them Robert and Ned's head after the rebellion had begun. In that case, both Aerys and Merryweather, the Hand, gave the order, only at different times.

....so much for that then, thanks! :)

[Lady Blizzardborn]

How does Lyanna getting engaged to Robert mean that Ned knows his sister is getting a decent guy? I just meant that I can't believe Ned would be *delighted* (the App's word, not mine) to have his sister marrying a certified poon-hound. The only "in-book" data point I have is Ned recalling his half-hearted defense of Robert to Lyanna about how Ned was sure Robert would stop whoring around after the marriage. I never got a "delighted" vibe from that scene.

Decent guy overall. He has a weakness where women are concerned but compared to a lot of other men of the time (anyone named Bolton, Randyll Tarly, etc) she was getting a keeper. He wasn't cruel or violent in general, he was an affable sort, from the right social level, and he adored her. She could have done a lot worse.

[ground_control]

Decent guy overall. He has a weakness where women are concerned but compared to a lot of other men of the time (anyone named Bolton, Randyll Tarly, etc) she was getting a keeper. He wasn't cruel or violent in general, he was an affable sort, from the right social level, and he adored her. She could have done a lot worse.

I guess I just don't equate "delighted" with "could have done a lot worse". Also, not sure why you think Randyll Tarly is less of a keeper than Robert. Tarly seems to have spent more time *trying* to raise Sam than Robert did with Joffrey, and there's no indication that Tarly sleeps around on his wife. Yeah, Tarly is a dick to sympathetic POV chars, but there's no indication he isn't a good husband and father.

[Lord Varys]

There are hints, that Robert was a very different guy during the Rebellion and in his youth. He did not become mad like Aerys, but being king changed him a lot - Ned's thoughts are really revealing in that capacity. 'Now perfume clung to him like perfume' and all that. I imagine that Robert did not yet frequent whores a lot in his youth.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I guess I just don't equate "delighted" with "could have done a lot worse". Also, not sure why you think Randyll Tarly is less of a keeper than Robert. Tarly seems to have spent more time *trying* to raise Sam than Robert did with Joffrey, and there's no indication that Tarly sleeps around on his wife. Yeah, Tarly is a dick to sympathetic POV chars, but there's no indication he isn't a good husband and father.

About his being a husband we indeed have very little to go on. But about him being a good father... He did chain his son to a wall and forced him to take a bath in blood. I wouldn't call that good..his intentions might have been good, but the way he tried to reach his goal.. not always.

[Lord Varys]

Randyll Tarly is really an awful person. He sent his son to the Wall instead of allowing him to become a maester. That's just sick.