Significance of House Royce

[Greymoon]

...whose son Ryman and grandson Black Walder, however, are not alright at all. :D

I used to think that the Rosby branch of the Freys were ok, but it turns out that Perwyn, Olyvar and Roslin had a brother (Benfrey) who was one of the RW conspirators.

Anyway, I don't mean to delay the thread. The Royces do have ties to Freys - as do the Waynwoods. In fact, I think at least Anya has a couple of Frey wards in her household. I don't know if Yohn has some, though.

Yes! I meant to expand on that, but then...well I'm not sure it's relevant at all. I expect we could see a Frey divide in the future though, since Ryman is dead (he is, isn't he? he got hanged iirc.) and Black Walder stands to inherit after Lord Walder dies...I don't think Black Walder is very popular with his cousins...is he? In any case, Fair Walder iirc, has ties to the Hardying's...her father is Stevron's son by a Lady Waynwood...

Walder Frey is everyone's grandfather, really.

[Vympel]

Shultz is a spelling from Switzerland, as far as I know.

How come nobody has mentioned that a Stark man took a Royce wife in recent (within the last 100 years or so) history? Actually I think two of them did. Both women had the same name, Lora Royce. Can't remember but I think all of our modern Starks are descended from one of those Loras.

To be specific, Lorra Royce was Ned Stark's great grandmother (on his mother's side).

[Hippocras]

To be specific, Lorra Royce was Ned Stark's great grandmother (on his mother's side).

...and Rickard's father Edwyle had a sister who married a Royce as well.

[Brian Boru Brightflame]

No, but a Royce accompanied Brandon to KL.

yup there it is. u da man

[Ser Dragon]

We remember.

In my opinion, the Royces tie into the struggle against the Others. They'll probably bring the Vale, or assist Sansa in bringing the Vale. Probably paralleled by House Dayne in Dorne, another House popping up all the time with similar characteristics.

Nope. Different branch of the family tree, the Royces descended from this Stark daughter have married into the Waynwoods and other noble families some generations ago. No living descendant still bears the name Royce.

Its seems significant that both House Royce and House Dayne also claim lineage from the blood of the First Men.

[Hippocras]

Its seems significant that both House Royce and House Dayne also claim lineage from the blood of the First Men.

As do the Blackwoods, and several others. I think this fact is important, but they are certainly not the only First Men houses.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

As do the Blackwoods, and several others. I think this fact is important, but they are certainly not the only First Men houses.

Perhaps these houses which are so proud of their First Men ancestry were the ones who provided the LH with his poor doomed companions.

[TheCrannogDweller]

As do the Blackwoods, and several others. I think this fact is important, but they are certainly not the only First Men houses.

A lot of Houses in the South have First Men origins - Tullys, Hightowers, Lannisters... Most of them have converted to the Andal religion and customs, but there are still some who preserve their First Men heritage - like the Royces. The Blackwoods, however, are unique, because they are the only House south of the Neck, who still worship the Old Gods.

[Hippocras]

A lot of Houses in the South have First Men origins - Tullys, Hightowers, Lannisters... Most of them have converted to the Andal religion and customs, but there are still some who preserve their First Men heritage - like the Royces. The Blackwoods, however, are unique, because they are the only House south of the Neck, who still worship the Old Gods.

Where does everyone get that the Hightowers have FM heritage? And the Lannisters. Both Houses are the height of power of the Andals, not the FM.

[TheCrannogDweller]

Where does everyone get that the Hightowers have FM heritage? And the Lannisters. Both Houses are the height of power of the Andals, not the FM.

The Lannisters are descendants of Lann the Clever from the Age of Heroes - and back then, there were no Andals in Westeros. Their male line was killed during the Andal invasion - but the Andals married into the female line. Yes, culturally the Lannisters are an Andal House - but they are descendants of the First Men.

The Hightowers - I don't know. I go mostly by the wiki. It says that "the family is very old, existing since the dawn of days when they were petty-kings" and that "during the coming of the Andals the Hightowers allied with the newcomers". And since they are the Lords of the oldest city of Westeros, I think that makes sense.

In fact, I think the Arryns are the only Great House which originated with the Andal Invasion.

[Hippocras]

The Lannisters are descendants of Lann the Clever from the Age of Heroes - and back then, there were no Andals in Westeros. Their male line was killed during the Andal invasion - but the Andals married into the female line. Yes, culturally the Lannisters are an Andal House - but they are descendants of the First Men.

The Hightowers - I don't know. I go mostly by the wiki. It says that "the family is very old, existing since the dawn of days when they were petty-kings" and that "during the coming of the Andals the Hightowers allied with the newcomers". And since they are the Lords of the oldest city of Westeros, I think that makes sense.

In fact, I think the Arryns are the only Great House which originated with the Andal Invasion.

interesting, thanks.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Where does everyone get that the Hightowers have FM heritage? And the Lannisters. Both Houses are the height of power of the Andals, not the FM.

The Hightowers "made their peace with the Andal invaders, going from kings to mere Lords, but retaining their power" (paraphrased). That's somewhere in the books, might be Samwell, but don't pin me on it. They predate the Andal invasion, which makes them a First Men House.

Nog already adressed the Lannister issue.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

The Lannisters are descendants of Lann the Clever from the Age of Heroes - and back then, there were no Andals in Westeros. Their male line was killed during the Andal invasion - but the Andals married into the female line. Yes, culturally the Lannisters are an Andal House - but they are descendants of the First Men.

The Hightowers - I don't know. I go mostly by the wiki. It says that "the family is very old, existing since the dawn of days when they were petty-kings" and that "during the coming of the Andals the Hightowers allied with the newcomers". And since they are the Lords of the oldest city of Westeros, I think that makes sense.

In fact, I think the Arryns are the only Great House which originated with the Andal Invasion.

However, I believe the whole Lann story to be a lie! When GRRM spoke about House Names and their origin he said that usually:

First Men- Short or Descriptive

Valyrian- Usually end in -on or -an. Celtigar being an exception

Andal- Anything in the middle of those two so longer, non-descriptive. He explicity states Lannister as an Andal name. Look at it, Garth Greenhands was The Gardner King, Durran founded Durrandon, Stark has always been Stark. Why is House Lannister not House Lann, how does a First Men house share a suffix with the Andals House Mallister? Because they were Andals who wanted prestige against their ancient contemporaries so fed a story that was not true. They killed all the Casterlys in the Andal Invasion. That is what I think.

[Khal Shaggydog]

House Baelish - so they are sort of like Bael (the Bard?), but only a bit? Could the Karstark/Thenn children be Karstarkish?

Perhaps these houses which are so proud of their First Men ancestry were the ones who provided the LH with his poor doomed companions.

Like that idea - we've only really heard of the story once, from Bran through Old Nan, but the party that went out with the LH, and their dogs, are all lost to history. Royce's might remember that they were part of the group.

[Lady Woodland]

Perhaps these houses which are so proud of their First Men ancestry were the ones who provided the LH with his poor doomed companions.

this is interesting, it could also explain the earlier post about each House having contributing acticles or factors to aid the LH. The magic armour & the legendary sword, come from two great Northern houses,

I am pretty sure the Dustin's are renowned for their horse breeding, if you recall a dog & a horse were in the story. Could the dog be a Direwolf hence a stark? or is the LH a Stark?

Can anyone think of other things the Houses mentioned might contribute, I'm not overly familiar with all the Sigils or House Words myself, are there identifier's with the LH myth that can link them such as dog's anyone have a dog for their Sigil (excluding Cleganes) or is there a House renowned as dog breeders I kinda skimmed over the Ramsey text but there seems to be a link to the Bolton's there,

Also crackpot & creepy but what if the legacy of flaying goes back to some sort of cannibalism that the companions of the first men used to survive. (thinking the movie Alive but stretching here, also the people on Skagos are reputedly cannibals)

House Baelish - so they are sort of like Bael (the Bard?), but only a bit? Could the Karstark/Thenn children be Karstarkish?

Like that idea - we've only really heard of the story once, from Bran through Old Nan, but the party that went out with the LH, and their dogs, are all lost to history. Royce's might remember that they were part of the group.

There has to be a lost book somewhere, perhaps Sam will find it at the citadel if the Maesters haven't destroyed all the records.

[Hippocras]

giggle. Karstarkish. I like it. Sounds Turkish or something.

But..Thenn/Karstark - Magnakar? Karstathenn?

[TheCrannogDweller]

But..Thenn/Karstark - Magnakar? Karstathenn?

Or Thennstark. Sounds nice to me.

Still, the House will probably be called Thenn. If Harrion comes back from the south, he will probably reclaim Karhold for the Karstarks - which means that the Thenns will need a new seat.

[Hippocras]

Or Thennstark. Sounds nice to me.

Still, the House will probably be called Thenn. If Harrion comes back from the south, he will probably reclaim Karhold for the Karstarks - which means that the Thenns will need a new seat.

Yes, possible. Hopefully they can be given the Dreadfort, with the Boltons wiped out.

[Hippocras]

Reviewing some information from early books:

Robar Royce was in KL for the hand's tourney. When Ned sent Beric's group to punish Gregor Clegane, he also sent Robar to tell the king about it - Robert was away hunting and Bronze Yohn was with him. Therefore the Royces were witnesses of Ned's decision and why he made it. They were also not present in the Vale during Tyrion's arrest and trial there.

Later Robar believed in Brienne's innocence in killing Renly so let her and Catelyn leave. It is unlikely he spoke to anyone about that before Loras killed him, however if he did, it might factor in to Brienne's reception in the Vale.

Alternately if he did not have a chance to tell anyone, the Royces may hold Brienne responsible for Renly and Robar's deaths. Loras, on the other hand, now believes Brienne. This will be an interesting dynamic if indeed the alliance between LF and the Tyrells is ongoing as subtly suggested in the books and openly stated in the show.

[Pecan]

Well, this is pretty interesting. I agree in general that enough has been put out there about House Royce and Bronze Yohn in particular that's telling us to pay attention, and so we should. I think the speculation about magical armour is a bit of a stretch, but maybe.

...Later in the series, this House keeps popping up in ways that are unusual for a lesser house.

I'm probably being pedantic here, but I feel the need to point out that there are lesser houses and then there are lesser houses that aren't so lesser, that have power and prestige to rival the so-called "great houses". In several cases, one lesser house in particular seems to operate as something of a foil to the power of the regional House Paramount - think Yronwood vs. Martell or Harlaw vs. Greyjoy or the former Reynes to the Lannisters. House Royce seems to occupy that role in the vale vs. the Arryns. Which isn't to say they're rivals or anything, only that they have a certain amount of power and that power is known and recognized, which makes them more prominent given the current situation in the Vale.

And so, in the case of House Royce, I think it's enough for them to simply be a powerful house in the Vale - first among equals of houses sworn to the Arryns. I don't think they need to have any major role other than that.