"We swear it by ice and fire," they finished together.

[Lady Woodland]

I was just posting on another thread about Meera's description & while hunting it down, I came across this passage where Jojen & Meera enter WF & greet Bran. so it's in aCoK one of the Bran chapter's p298 in my paperback edition 2011.

"My Lords of Stark," the girl said. "The years have passed in their hundreds & their thousands since my folk first swore their fealty to the King in the North. My lord father has sent us here to say the words again, for all our people."

She is looking at me, Bran realized. He had to make some answer, "My brother Robb is fighting in the south," he said, "but you can say your words to me, if you like."

"To Winterfell we pledge the faith of Greywater," they said together."hearth and heart and harvest we yield up to you, my lord. Our swords and spears and arrows are yours to command. Grant mercy to our weak, help to our helpless, and justice to all, and we shall never fail you."

"I swear it by earth and water," said the boy in green.

"I swear it by bronze and iron," his sister said.

"We swear it by ice and fire," they finished together.

Bran groped for words. Was he supposed to swear something back to them? Their oath was not one he had been taught. "May your winters be short and your summers bountiful," he said.

I was wondering of the significance of the last line of this oath. Bran says he's never heard it before, as we have read when Maester Luwin is teaching Bran of the Great & Lesser Houses, he asks Bran to recal their sigils & words & presumably their oath's as well. Obviously the Reed's have been little mentioned at all until this time, & when the Reed's show up at WF Maester Luwin tell's Bran of the significance of House Reed to WF and his friendship with Eddard Stark.

The only other time I can recall a reference to Ice and Fire together in any of the books is in Dany's vision in the HotU where she see's a man who is presumed to be Rhaegar together with a woman holding a newborn in her arms. She asks him "Will you make a song for him?" and he replies "He already has a song, his is the song of Ice and Fire"

So my question is what if anything is significant about the words of this oath by the Reed's in the context of the story we know?

Earth & Water would refer to the land & particularly the marshes of the Greywater Watch.

Bronze is linked to the CotF, Iron is the metal of Winter & the North.

I've also bolded some other words in the Oath that may or may not be of significance.

[Sodd]

So my question is what if anything is significant about the words of this oath by the Reed's in the context of the story we know?

Earth & Water would refer to the land & particularly the marshes of the Greywater Watch.

Bronze is linked to the CotF, Iron is the metal of Winter & the North.

It is usually tought as a reference to the different types of magic that exists

- earth and water: magic the CotF use and water magic once the rhoynar used (as described in the WoIaF excerpt)

- bronze and iron: iron could be the magic component used at working with valyrian steel, bronze could be some not yet mentioned type of magic, perhaps a magic used with the rune-inscribed armors of house Royce??

- ice and fire: the others' and red priests magic

[SerArthurHeath]

Could just be the elements in Westeros.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

It is usually tought as a reference to the different types of magic that exists

- earth and water: magic the CotF use and water magic once the rhoynar used (as described in the WoIaF excerpt)

- bronze and iron: iron could be the magic component used at working with valyrian steel, bronze could be some not yet mentioned type of magic, perhaps a magic used with the rune-inscribed armors of house Royce??

- ice and fire: the others' and red priests magic

When I hear "bronze and iron", I automatically think of the First Men (bronze weapons) and the Andals (iron).

[Stormland's Fury]

The five elements in Chinese philosophy are wood, water, fire, earth and metal.

Probably coincidence and the wood is missing, but it reminded me immediately of this.

[Lady Woodland]

It is usually tought as a reference to the different types of magic that exists

- earth and water: magic the CotF use and water magic once the rhoynar used (as described in the WoIaF excerpt)

- bronze and iron: iron could be the magic component used at working with valyrian steel, bronze could be some not yet mentioned type of magic, perhaps a magic used with the rune-inscribed armors of house Royce??

- ice and fire: the others' and red priests magic

that's right I had forgotten it was supposedly tCotF who smashed the land bridge with volcanic activity? earthquakes, tsunami's. & Yes Bronze scales on Meera's jerkin, Bronze glyphs on the armour. MMD also uses a "leaf shaped bronze knife covered in glyphs" when she uses her blood magic.

The five elements in Chinese philosophy are wood, water, fire, earth and metal.

Probably coincidence and the wood is missing, but it reminded me immediately of this.

Well there are the Weirwood's if you think about BR he is wood & leaf is a CotF so you could be correct, maybe the wood is a given. Air is also one of the elements too isn't it or have I been watching too much of my children's Avatar lol...

[Stormland's Fury]

Well there are the Weirwood's if you think about BR he is wood & leaf is a CotF so you could be correct, maybe the wood is a given. Air is also one of the elements too isn't it or have I been watching too much of my children's Avatar lol...

No, air is weirdly enough not one of them.

[SerArthurHeath]

Depends on whether we are talking Chinese or Classical elements

[Stormland's Fury]

Depends on whether we are talking Chinese or Classical elements

I wrote Chinese (philosophy).

[Archmaester_Aemma]

"To Winterfell we pledge the faith of Greywater," they said together."hearth and heart and harvest we yield up to you, my lord. Our swords and spears and arrows are yours to command. Grant mercy to our weak, help to our helpless, and justice to all, and we shall never fail you."

"I swear it by earth and water," said the boy in green.

"I swear it by bronze and iron," his sister said.

"We swear it by ice and fire," they finished together.

Bran groped for words. Was he supposed to swear something back to them? Their oath was not one he had been taught. "May your winters be short and your summers bountiful," he said.

Earth and water: CotF magic, I imagine.

Bronze and Iron: have lots of relevance to the North, which I interpret as the Old Gods, and the fight against the Long Night. I'll split it into parts:

1) With respect to Robb's crown (?) Bronze and Iron are the metals of winter

2) A bronze knife (shaped like a leaf) is used in ritual sacrifice to the Old Gods

3) Horn of Joramun (which I believe is in am's possession - a horn on FFM with the obsidian cache) is banded in bronze (with runes)

4) House Royce - magical bronze armour (with runes), sigil of black iron studs on bronze (with runes) (and I have a feeling they'll be rather important)

Ice and Fire: Not entirely sure - the reference to tPtwP prophecy would mean that Howland knew, which means the prophecy is either fairly well known, is referenced to in a lot of other prophecies and people haven't made the connection, or he learnt about it somewhere (possibly ToJ).

[Lady Woodland]

Earth and water: CotF magic, I imagine.

Bronze and Iron: have lots of relevance to the North, which I interpret as the Old Gods, and the fight against the Long Night. I'll split it into parts:

1) With respect to Robb's crown (?) Bronze and Iron are the metals of winter

2) A bronze knife (shaped like a leaf) is used in ritual sacrifice to the Old Gods

3) Horn of Joramun (which I believe is in am's possession - a horn on FFM with the obsidian cache) is banded in bronze (with runes)

4) House Royce - magical bronze armour (with runes), sigil of black iron studs on bronze (with runes) (and I have a feeling they'll be rather important)

Ice and Fire: Not entirely sure - the reference to tPtwP prophecy would mean that Howland knew, which means the prophecy is either fairly well known, is referenced to in a lot of other prophecies and people haven't made the connection, or he learnt about it somewhere (possibly ToJ).

This sounds right to me, Bran doesn't know this oath, therefore we can presume it's something only the Greywater Watch swear, obviously Ned or Maester Luwin have never mentioned it, maybe no-one thought they would meet the Reeds again, HR hasn't presented himself in 15 years so can we deduce that this line might be connected to the ToJ & what happened there.

I was wondering if the Reed's are using the phrase Ice and Fire in their oath as a kind of code? secret squirrel stuff - perhaps to probe Bran & find out what & how much anyone at WF might know of the event's of the ToJ. For all we know HR may have thought Ned would confide in one of his children, or that gossip would surface linking the events.

If this last phrase of the oath has always existed, (referring now back to, "hundreds & thousands of years" we have presumed that by appearance, lifestyle & their remote location, Greywater Watch & the Reeds are closely related to the CotF, if so is the "song of ice and fire part of CotF prophecy too? I always assumed it was a Valerian thing. Or did HR & Ned add this part to consolidate the events of ToJ?

It reminds me that later on Meera say's "are you sure you've never heard this story" talking about Harrenhall events. The Reed's seem to believe Ned would have shared more history with his kin.

[Stormland's Fury]

It reminds me that later on Meera say's "are you sure you've never heard this story" talking about Harrenhall events. The Reed's seem to believe Ned would have shared more history with his kin.

I took that more as a way to show that Bran and Rickon were very young and missed out on a lot that Ned might have taught them (if he wasn't called away). I'm sure Robb and Sansa knew the story.

[Theon {HUNGRY WOLF} Stark]

Mayhaps Howland told them the secret of ToJ when he sent them to WF. As a failsafe against something bad happening to him, now that Ned is dead.

[PrettyPig]

The crackpot in me swears that there is still some kind of connection between the North and dragons, but......

My realist answer is that, like most religions in the real world, there are parallel elements and superstructures and mythologies within religions of Westeros/Essos, and the Reed's ice & fire component of their oath references their version of tPtwP legend that goes back to at least the Age of Heroes, if not earlier.

[SerArthurHeath]

I took that more as a way to show that Bran and Rickon were very young and missed out on a lot that Ned might have taught them (if he wasn't called away). I'm sure Robb and Sansa knew the story.

I'm not. Nothing about Ned and that story makes me think he'd tell it to his kids.

[Lady Woodland]

Mayhaps Howland told them the secret of ToJ when he sent them to WF. As a failsafe against something bad happening to him, now that Ned is dead.

this makes sense, does anyone remember if it was translated to the show, I know Bran & Rickon leave WF before the Reeds arrive, but I'm fuzzy after that I know we don't see them till season 3 & I've only seen that series once, so I just wonder if it's an important enough line in the Oath that the Reeds do eventually swear it to Bran.

The crackpot in me swears that there is still some kind of connection between the North and dragons, but......

My realist answer is that, like most religions in the real world, there are parallel elements and superstructures and mythologies within religions of Westeros/Essos, and the Reed's ice & fire component of their oath references their version of tPtwP legend that goes back to at least the Age of Heroes, if not earlier.

I'm crackpot right along with you, I believe Sansa will hatch the dragon but hey sometimes you just have to amuse yourself with idea's when the author is still using a DOS word processor to write his books, he probably submits them for editing on floppy's, can you still buy floppy's? should we be worried for him? :bawl:

[PrettyPig]

I'm crackpot right along with you, I believe Sansa will hatch the dragon but hey sometimes you just have to amuse yourself with idea's when the author is still using a DOS word processor to write his books, he probably submits them for editing on floppy's, can you still buy floppy's? should we be worried for him? :bawl:

There's always eBay! You can get anything on eBay! :lol

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

I'm crackpot right along with you, I believe Sansa will hatch the dragon but hey sometimes you just have to amuse yourself with idea's when the author is still using a DOS word processor to write his books, he probably submits them for editing on floppy's, can you still buy floppy's? should we be worried for him? :bawl:

Don't be ridiculous. He probably hands over neat prints from a dot matrix printer, which then get scanned and OCR-ed in the publishing house. I only hope the ribbon can take a few more refurbishments before it snaps.

[Maester Pedant]

I was just posting on another thread about Meera's description & while hunting it down, I came across this passage where Jojen & Meera enter WF & greet Bran. so it's in aCoK one of the Bran chapter's p298 in my paperback edition 2011.

"My Lords of Stark," the girl said. "The years have passed in their hundreds & their thousands since my folk first swore their fealty to the King in the North. My lord father has sent us here to say the words again, for all our people."

She is looking at me, Bran realized. He had to make some answer, "My brother Robb is fighting in the south," he said, "but you can say your words to me, if you like."

"To Winterfell we pledge the faith of Greywater," they said together."hearth and heart and harvest we yield up to you, my lord. Our swords and spears and arrows are yours to command. Grant mercy to our weak, help to our helpless, and justice to all, and we shall never fail you."

"I swear it by earth and water," said the boy in green.

"I swear it by bronze and iron," his sister said.

"We swear it by ice and fire," they finished together.

Bran groped for words. Was he supposed to swear something back to them? Their oath was not one he had been taught. "May your winters be short and your summers bountiful," he said.

I was wondering of the significance of the last line of this oath. Bran says he's never heard it before, as we have read when Maester Luwin is teaching Bran of the Great & Lesser Houses, he asks Bran to recal their sigils & words & presumably their oath's as well. Obviously the Reed's have been little mentioned at all until this time, & when the Reed's show up at WF Maester Luwin tell's Bran of the significance of House Reed to WF and his friendship with Eddard Stark.

The only other time I can recall a reference to Ice and Fire together in any of the books is in Dany's vision in the HotU where she see's a man who is presumed to be Rhaegar together with a woman holding a newborn in her arms. She asks him "Will you make a song for him?" and he replies "He already has a song, his is the song of Ice and Fire"

So my question is what if anything is significant about the words of this oath by the Reed's in the context of the story we know?

Earth & Water would refer to the land & particularly the marshes of the Greywater Watch.

Bronze is linked to the CotF, Iron is the metal of Winter & the North.

I've also bolded some other words in the Oath that may or may not be of significance.

There's another one made by Jojen in ASoS. I'll try to find it.

[Maester Pedant]

There's another one made by Jojen in ASoS. I'll try to find it.

A Storm of Swords, Bran II (it's the chapter that contains the story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree):

'"Up and down," Meera would sigh sometimes as they walked, "then down and up. Then up and down again. I hate these stupid mountains of yours, Prince Bran."

"Yesterday, you said you loved them."

"Oh, I do. My lord father told me about mountains, but I never saw one till now. I love them more than I can say."

Bran made a face at her. "But you just said you hated them."

"Why can't it be both?" Meera reached up to pinch his nose.

"Because they're different," he insisted. "Like night and day, or ice and fire."

"If ice can burn," said Jojen in his solemn voice, "then love and hate can mate. Mountain or marsh, it makes no matter, The land is one."