why no VS armour?

[The Poster Who Was Promisd]

You are both mistaken in assuming that there is only good metal and bad metal. That's a fallacy. Different sttels with a different amount of carbon or other metals mixed in behave differently, each with it's own set of strengths and weaknesses.

For a proper blade, you need a certain stiffness, a certain flexibility, a certain hardness, and the ability to be hammered and sharpened into an edge, as well as the ability to be hardened (depended on the amount of carbon).

For proper armor, you need a different stiffness, a different flexibilty, a different hardness, don't need an edge and not hardened. This vastly different array of traits requires a vastly different material.

For different tasks, different steels show their qualities. For blades, a good armor steel is useless, the other way round as well.

What are the material characteristics of good sword steel? I would imagine shear strength, impact strength or toughness, hardness and perhaps corrosion resistance. What are the material characteristics of good armor steel? It seems like it would be shear strength, impact strength or toughness, hardness and perhaps corrosion resistance.

I think the answer is cost. It seems pretty likely that VS steel would make excellent armor, but maybe not so much better than other kinds of steel that it's worth giving up the ten swords you could make from it.

[league of blooDraven]

What are the material characteristics of good sword steel? I would imagine shear strength, impact strength or toughness, hardness and perhaps corrosion resistance. What are the material characteristics of good armor steel? It seems like it would be shear strength, impact strength or toughness, hardness and perhaps corrosion resistance.

I think the answer is cost. It seems pretty likely that VS steel would make excellent armor, but maybe not so much better than other kinds of steel that it's worth giving up the ten swords you could make from it.

Off the top of my head I can think that plate steel would have to be more ductile so that it could be hammered out to the thinness and shape that is required.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

What are the material characteristics of good sword steel? I would imagine shear strength, impact strength or toughness, hardness and perhaps corrosion resistance. What are the material characteristics of good armor steel? It seems like it would be shear strength, impact strength or toughness, hardness and perhaps corrosion resistance.

I think the answer is cost. It seems pretty likely that VS steel would make excellent armor, but maybe not so much better than other kinds of steel that it's worth giving up the ten swords you could make from it.

That's some details beyond my knowledge. But I've got a bit of numbers for you on the hardness of blades and armor: Blades tend to be about 55 HRC, while armor tend to be around 22 HRC, give or take.

[The Poster Who Was Promisd]

But is that because hardness is undesirable in armor, or simply not worth the effort? Hardness often comes with brittleness, but VS swords don't seem to be very brittle. I suspect that medieval smiths would have made both swords and armor out of stainless steel if they could have.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Stainless steel is one of the worst possible steels for blades and I doubt it fares any better for armor.

[KING-OF-WINTERFELL]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TeGv_PU4ZkA

Go to 27 mins and it explains what bright blue eyes was talking about (different steels different applications).

Watch this documentary, it explain what every about what you need a sword to do.

Effectively it need bend and be flexible without breaking while being hard to keep its sharp edges.

VS steel armour would need to be modified with every new user, but how about a VS shield? I think it would be a more viable to pass on and having a shield made out of VS would be light and hard to pierce.

Good point, I can see that the attributes of a good sword need in a good shield. But its whether the same process to create a sword can be used to create a shield.

[Bloodrobin]

Best real-world analogy, yes, but the properties of Valyrian steel are pure magic.

And how do we know this? Absent a SSM or textual evidence this seems like pure assertion.

[Ser Creighton]

It pretty much is, except VS is forged using sorcery and dragonfire.

People still make Damascus Steel, I have a knife made from it.

No you don't you have a knife from something they call Damascus steel, lots of knife companies claim this, but it's not the real deal. Those are not naturally occurring patterns on the blade, that's pattern welded steel. The layers are created by hammering sheets of steel together not from folding. It's not made from wootz either. The new knives they call Damascus are really nice, and have beautiful patterns but that's from chemical treatment. It's a totally different process, made from a different type of steel. Oh and then they over charge for it. Benchmade, Reeve, Ralph custom, William Henry, they all make the same claim. And then they over charge for the blade, though I would still drop down the cash for a Henry, but with Reeve just go with a Sebenza no need to pay an extra 200 for a knife that you are going to beat the crap out of.

[Ser Creighton]

And how do we know this? Absent a SSM or textual evidence this seems like pure assertion.

Real steel chips, scratches, bends, breaks, shatters, VS doesn't, at least not as yet. It's also spell forged, we know magic goes into the blade. It's stated in the books and Mott talked about this.

[league of blooDraven]

That's some details beyond my knowledge. But I've got a bit of numbers for you on the hardness of blades and armor: Blades tend to be about 55 HRC, while armor tend to be around 22 HRC, give or take.

This means, in basic terms, blade steel is harder and more brittle than armor steel.

HRC tests consist of pushing a diamond into steel with a set load and seeing how far it goes. The result is dimensionless, so it's used for comparison between two steels that have equal properties.

However the question then would be, is softer steel more preferable for armor, or is it just needed to be able to work the metal into flat, thin shapes?

As for sheilds, they were specifically made from wood in ASOIAF. I don't think a person is strong enough to cut through a wooden shield so the lightest material was used. Also, wood was more likely to "catch" an axe or sword so you could twist the weapon from your enemy.

[KING-OF-WINTERFELL]

Real steel chips, scratches, bends, breaks, shatters, VS doesn't, at least not as yet. It's also spell forged, we know magic goes into the blade. It's stated in the books and Mott talked about this.

The documentary that I posted specifically says the Vikings saw their crucible steel swords as magic, don't you think if it had unusual properties people with a lack of understanding of science would think the same?

[corbon]

This means, in basic terms, blade steel is harder and more brittle than armor steel.

HRC tests consist of pushing a diamond into steel with a set load and seeing how far it goes. The result is dimensionless, so it's used for comparison between two steels that have equal properties.

However the question then would be, is softer steel more preferable for armor, or is it just needed to be able to work the metal into flat, thin shapes?

As for sheilds, they were specifically made from wood in ASOIAF. I don't think a person is strong enough to cut through a wooden shield so the lightest material was used. Also, wood was more likely to "catch" an axe or sword so you could twist the weapon from your enemy.

Armour must absorb and spread the kinetic energy of a blow, or something like that (I'm not an expert, but I understand what BBEs is trying to get across and even worse amateurs than myself are completely failing to get). Thats why blunter bashing weapons were widely used against heavy armoured opponents - they don't bust through the armour, they just deliver a great kinetic force into a small area and that largely transmits straight through the armour even though the weapon itself does not penetrate. Hence the different properties from weapons, not just for working it initially, but also for what it actually does 'on the job'. Too hard and the kinetic energy will be transmitted through to the wearer in greater proportion, or just shatter the armour. So softer steel is necessary for armour.

Heres a historical reference:

Giambattista della Porta, Natural Magick, Book XIII, Ch. IV, 1558

"Take soft iron armour of small price, and put it into a pot, strewing upon it [soot, and organic powders to supply carbon], cover it, and make a good fire about it: then at the time fit, take the pot with iron pinchers; and striking the pot with a hammer, quench the whole herness red hot in water; for so it becomes hard*1 ... But, lest the rings of a coat of male should be broken, and flie in pieces*2, there must be strength added to hardness. Workman call it a return. Take it out of the water, shake it up and down in vinegar, that it may be polished and the colour be made perspicuous: than make red hot a plate of iron and lay upon the same*3: when it shows an ash colour, cast it again into water, and that hardness abated, and it will yield to the stroke more easily: so of a base coat of male, you shall have one that will resist all blows."

*1 Turn Iron into steel, hardening it

*2 But steel armour breaks easily

*3 So add a layer of softer iron to absorb the impact (yield the blow) more easily.

That of course is incredibly expensive. And also uses a great deal of metal with a great deal more work than a weapon.

So its not only inappropriate to use the same sort of material (VS) for weapons as armour, its also wasteful of the material (VS) and its inefficient in terms of manufacturing as well..

And then thats mutiplied by the individuality necessary in good armour, compared to weapons.

Basically there is a whole bunch of good reasons why no one has VS armour, and they all magnify each other.

The documentary that I posted specifically says the Vikings saw their crucible steel swords as magic, don't you think if it had unusual properties people with a lack of understanding of science would think the same?

Pay attention. Its stated in the books that there are spells involved in the forging of Valyrian steel. Those spells are lost, hence no more VS. Tobho Mott and a very few others know the spells/rituals necessary for working already forged VS.

[SerArthurHeath]

That's pure decoration, not heavy-duty armor. Next you'll claim armor out of massive gold does well, after all there is an archmaester with a golden mask and more than enough golden statues.

But we know that VS has some attributes that make it suitable for armour (strength, low weight, doesn't tarnish). Gold does not