The Stone Beast Breathing Shadow Fire v2

[fuelpagan_tw]

Ah, third Stone Dragon will be found at Storm's End. That's why there is magic in its walls. ;)

1. Winterfell

2. Dragonstone

3. Storm's End

[Lady Blizzardborn]

I think there may be a distinction between the "stone beast" mentioned in the House of the Undying, and Mel's "waking dragons from stone." We have no source for where she got that idea. We could be dealing with two very different things here.

[fuelpagan_tw]

I think there may be a distinction between the "stone beast" mentioned in the House of the Undying, and Mel's "waking dragons from stone." We have no source for where she got that idea. We could be dealing with two very different things here.

“Only a king’s blood can wake the stone dragon.” -SOS Chapter 36

Mel specifically states "stone dragon" indicating a dragon made of stone.

[JamesOfHouseMurphy]

The first thread is locked here.

Many people are intrigued by what shadow fire means. It is easy to think that as dragon fire or the greyscale bacteria (then why is it described as fire?) but visions and prophecies in ASOIAF do not tend to have literal meanings.

There is a novel called Shadow Fires (1987) by Dean Koontz, who wrote an introduction to Songs of the Dying Earth edited by GRRM and Dozois. I am quite sure that GRRM has read this horror novel.

I did not read the book but the plot summary suggests that Tyrion has some Eric in him.

So is it possible that GRRM used shadow fire in the same context with the title of Koontz’s novel? If so, what does it mean?

From the plot summary, it looks like shadow fire represents Eric’s fall into madness and transformation into a monster in his quest to cheat death, which is rooted in his fear of meeting his childhood abuser in hell if he dies and goes there.

Coming back to the vision of Dany, I think a case can be made for Tyrion being the stone beast breathing shadow fire in comparison to Eric of Shadow Fires.

Tyrion was abused all his life. He has an undying quest, to have the love of the people. This quest is driving him to his doom, similar to how Stannis is advancing to his demise because of his quest to conquer the IT. People will never love Tyrion just like people will never accept Stannis as their king. This fact only makes them more miserable and dangerous as the story goes on.

The Bloody Hand reveals a monster that shakes hand with the death itself. We also see that Tyrion nearly strangled Penny.

Tyrion, who is originally a lion, is now mutating into some beast, which is stone as a result of his greyscale. Shadow fire represents his growing madness and instability, maybe his creeping death due to greyscale as well.

The structure of HotU visions suggest that the stone beast breathing shadow fire should be Dany’s mount, which she rides to love.

The structure also implies that there must be a lie related to Tyrion. Of course the fact that he did not kill Joffrey can be this lie to be slain by Dany. However, the other lies in the triplet are related to fake identities. Does this mean that Tyrion’s parentage is fake?

Although I don’t buy the Aerys rape theory, I think Gerion might have an affair with Joanna and he may be the father of Tyrion. If he is the corsair king, he will bump into Dany and Tyrion. That means he should reveal secret family history which cannot be written in any history books by the maesters.

Therefore, Tyrion may be declared to be Tyrion Hill by Dany.

One thing is that Tyrion didn't catch grey scale when he fell into the rhoyne, we know this for a certainty because he checks himself for grey scale several times

[Dorian Martell]

this theory is predicated on several assumptions, namely that the mounts Dany must ride and the lies she slays are directly connected and Tyrion having greyscale. How would the mount she rides to bed help her slay Stannis? Drogon as the mount to dread seems easy so I will give you that one and for the sake of this I will assume Aegon is fake. The Third?

As for Tyrion, he checks himself regularly, and Jon Con, who went in the drink at the same time is showing obvious signs. If he was a Typhoid Tyrion, wouldn't we see anyone else close to him, Like Jorah or Penny show symptoms too?

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Mel specifically states "stone dragon" indicating a dragon made of stone.

Did you even read my comment? Mel says stone dragon, but we don't know where she got that. Look at how often she's wrong. And she doesn't mention shadow fire.

The "stone beast" (not dragon!) "breathing shadow fire" is from the House of the Undying prophecies. Mel has nothing to do with that.

We don't know that they two are related.

[fuelpagan_tw]

Did you even read my comment? Mel says stone dragon, but we don't know where she got that. Look at how often she's wrong. And she doesn't mention shadow fire.

The "stone beast" (not dragon!) "breathing shadow fire" is from the House of the Undying prophecies. Mel has nothing to do with that.

We don't know that they two are related.

I've been unable to locate my book to quote it directly. But the wiki states...

A great stone beast takes wing from a smoking tower, breathing shadows.

The only flying beasts we've been introduced to that exhale anything other than air are Dragons. There is little discussion of Wyvern's in comparison to Dragons to say how GRRM has plans for using them. I've seen them used as smaller versions of dragons as well as none fire breathing dragons.

But a Great flying Stone beast breathing shadow fire, I doubt the small folk would care technically what it is called, they'd likely still likely call the thing a dragon.

Mel hasn't mentioned what she expects these stone dragons to breath, but given she gave birth to a shadow demon, I imagine these stone dragons would exhale shadows.

[Mithras]

The gargoyles watched him ascend. Their eyes glowed red as hot coals in a brazier. Perhaps once they had been lions, but now they were twisted and grotesque.

Tyrion is referred to as a gargoyle many times. I think this is a clue that he is the stone beast breathing shadow fire. He started as a lion but he became so twisted that he looks like an undefined beast.

[Mithras]

I think Tyrion might not necessarily be infected with greyscale to be called a stone beast. Jon Snow is a stone dragon who is unable to fly with his stony wings. But he will be woken as Jon Targaryen (a real dragon).

Similarly, Tyrion Lannister is a lion but according to this theory, he will turn into a beast when he learns that he is a bastard, i.e. Tyrion Hill. That will be the reverse case of Jon.

Jon will transform from stone to dragon; Tyrion will transfrom from lion to stone.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

I've been unable to locate my book to quote it directly. But the wiki states...

The only flying beasts we've been introduced to that exhale anything other than air are Dragons. There is little discussion of Wyvern's in comparison to Dragons to say how GRRM has plans for using them. I've seen them used as smaller versions of dragons as well as none fire breathing dragons.

But a Great flying Stone beast breathing shadow fire, I doubt the small folk would care technically what it is called, they'd likely still likely call the thing a dragon.

Mel hasn't mentioned what she expects these stone dragons to breath, but given she gave birth to a shadow demon, I imagine these stone dragons would exhale shadows.

Jon Connington's sigil is a griffin. A griffin is a winged beast. Jon Connington has greyscale and is thus turning to stone. Stone beast. The shadow fire I'm not sure of (could have something to do with spreading the disease, or with his feeling he should have been more Tywin-like before, and may be more Tywin-ish this time around) but JonCon is an excellent possibility for the stone beast.

I'm just saying it may not be a dragon and Mel may be talking about something very different, from a much older prophecy. As far as we know Mel has no connection to the warlocks of Qarth (who are responsible for Dany's "stone beast" vision).

[Pecan]

Let's take a look at the structure of the prophecies as Paper Waver laid them out in the other thread:

The Undying whispered 3 prophecies to Dany:

Prophecy 1: three fires must you light... one for life (Fire 1) and one for death (Fire 2) and one to love (Fire 3)

Prophecy 2: three mounts must you ride... one to bed (Mount 1) and one to dread (Mount 2) and one to love (Mount 3)

Prophecy 3: three treasons will you know... once for blood (Treason 1) and once for gold (Treason 2) and once for love (Treason 3)

After hearing these prophecies, Dany stated that she did not understand them and then, the Undying showed her these visions to tell what they mean by these prophecies:

Fire 1: (for life) Viserys screamed as the molten gold ran down his cheeks and filled his mouth.

Fire 2: (for death) A tall lord with copper skin and silver-gold hair stood beneath the banner of a fiery stallion, a burning city behind him.

Fire 3: (to love) Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman’s name.

... mother of dragons, daughter of death

Mount 1: (to bed) Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow.

Mount 2: (to dread) A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd.

Mount 3: (to love) From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire.

... mother of dragons, slayer of lies

Treason 1: (for blood) Her silver was trotting through the grass, to a darkling stream beneath a sea of stars.

Treason 2: (for gold) A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly.

Treason 3: (for love) A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness.

... mother of dragons, bride of fire

Here's my take.

These prophecies are the undying giving her clues to her destiny, looking both past and future. I think most would agree with that. The first part, the three fires she must light, seem to refer to people that have died who were all crucial to who she is now - Viserys, Rhaego, and Rhaegar. That's why she's called the daughter of death at the end of that section.

The three mounts she must ride I believe aren't literally "mounts", or not necessarily so. Mount 2 could very well be Drogon. These are people or things that will take her to her ultimate destiny, or will in some way be critical for her. It's unclear if the mounts refer directly to the associated images though or what exactly to bed, to dread, and to love refer to. For example, the image associated with Mount 1 (to bed), would appear to be Stannis but I can't imagine that she will go to bed with him. Nor can I image that she will "dread" fAegon. But, Stannis and fAegon could both be critical "mounts" that take her to the next stage of her jouney. It's also easy to understand the lies associated with both Stannis and fAegon, as neither is quite what they are made out to be. In this context, Tyrion as the stone beast makes some sense should the two of them team up. If he turns out to have greyscale in the next book, then we'll know for sure.

It could also be the case that the images and the mounts aren't the same. The images could simply be the lies that she will slay.

[Pecan]

Following on my point above, which I was writing in the wee hours of the morning while falling asleep over my keyboard, slayer of lies seems incredibly important, probably more important than who or what the "mounts" are, which to me argues against Tyrion as the stone beast. Yes, there are lies associated with Tyrion since we know he didn't kill Joffrey, but does that lie matter all that much in the grand scheme of things? The more significant lie has to do with Jon Snow's parentage, but then Jon seems to be referenced in the third treason, and in Jon's case how would the smoking tower fit in? The Tower of Joy maybe?

One thought is that the stone beast could be Lady Stoneheart, especially considering the association with Shadow Fire since she seems to have been resurrected by the power of R'hlorr. But then where does the smoking tower fit in and what is the lie that Dany will "slay"?

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Following on my point above, which I was writing in the wee hours of the morning while falling asleep over my keyboard, slayer of lies seems incredibly important, probably more important than who or what the "mounts" are, which to me argues against Tyrion as the stone beast. Yes, there are lies associated with Tyrion since we know he didn't kill Joffrey, but does that lie matter all that much in the grand scheme of things? The more significant lie has to do with Jon Snow's parentage, but then Jon seems to be referenced in the third treason, and in Jon's case how would the smoking tower fit in? The Tower of Joy maybe?

One thought is that the stone beast could be Lady Stoneheart, especially considering the association with Shadow Fire since she seems to have been resurrected by the power of R'hlorr. But then where does the smoking tower fit in and what is the lie that Dany will "slay"?

An interesting possibility there.

Not sure about the smoking tower, but the lie in that case would be proving that Jon isn't Ned's son. That's the only current lie I can think of that has anything to do with Cat. If you want to really twist things around, she could slay Lady Stoneheart who is alive when she should be dead thus giving lie to the natural order.

[Pecan]

To understand this:

From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire.

I think we need to understand all of the other various associations to "stone" that are in the text.

Off the top of my head:

1. Lady Stoneheart
   
2. Dragonstone
   
3. Stony Dornishmen
   
4. "When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone."
   
5. Stone Men
   
6. The Stony Shore
   

[Lady Blizzardborn]

To understand this:

I think we need to understand all of the other various associations to "stone" that are in the text.

Off the top of my head:

1. Lady Stoneheart

Dragonstone

Stony Dornishmen

"When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone."

Stone Men

The Stony Shore

Don't forget Skagos which means "stone" in the Old Tongue. Rickon is there.