What happens next with Theon?

[INCBlackbird]

I would like to give my opinion on all of this :

1. I don't think you can blame benfred and mikken, I agree that they chose death as in they knew what was gonna happen if they kept pushing, but they were being invaded, so not their fault.

2. however, Theon saw this as the only option, I don't get why we are talking about "he could have done this, he could have done this" we are talking about Theon here, who is a horrible leader and is desparatly trying to prove himself and he thinks that for that to happen he needs to be hard (and even though he's got it difficult with letting his men do the iron born thing) and follow his culture (what his men want, what they respect) Theon was technically in power and maybe if he'd been a good leader who had enough stamina to command his men to do what he wanted instead of trying to appease them by doing what they wanted, then maybe he would have been able to act on said technical power positive, but as it is, he's naturally a bad leader and he's deeply insecure (which doesn't help) so I think if he was actually in power is debatable, he could have been, with a different personality.

3. why is Theon killing 3 people brought up as a way of "how dare you defend him?" because I thought we were talking about asoiaf, a story in which most characters are responsible for waaaaay more then 3 deaths (and yeah theon is too but his death count would still be low when compared most characters) so why, on a forum where we discuss, defend and are fans of pretty much every character on here, is this a valid way to say "you can't defend Theon" yes, Theon has done bad things, I've never denied that, but so have the other characters (and before anyone says anything: no that doesn't make his crimes less bad, but it does make it a double standard if you hate him for killing people and not the other characters)

[Lord Reaver]

You brought the childhood situation of Theon up, not me, and then used yourself bringing that childhood situation up to accuse me of comparing childhood captives with adult captives (apples and oranges). Face that like an adult! All I did was answer Lee's questions on what Ned would have done with Theon the child, the situation you brought up, in good faith.

Where did I refer to Theon as a boy ?

You were the one who did that, in your supposed alternatives.

You are acting like a five year old with your attempts to shift blame and stubborn refusal to even own up to your own words, and I have had it with you.

Good day.

[sweetsunray]

No, it's like saying Theon should have respected the Starks, while he was their captive. Which he did.

That's you referring to the childhood situation.

[sweetsunray]

You are acting like a five year old with your attempts to shift blame and stubborn refusal to even own up to your own words, and I have had it with you.

Good day.

I'm not. You are posting and argumenting with bad faith and malicious ad hominem intent. And I've had it with you. It's not the first time that when someone disagrees with you, that you go the ad hominem argument route. If you actually had arguments that stand, there would be no need for that tactic.

All I did was that I answered with good faith to the question Lee posted to me, based on the example you brought up (per above post and quote). Other than that I would agree in general that a child's response upon being taken captive is different than that of an adult, for very understandable reasons. And I hold neither the child, nor the adult responsible for responding differently to being taken captive. That is however not how your post worded it.

[Lord Reaver]

That's you referring to the childhood situation.

Nothing in that quote refers to Theon being a child. He was 19 at the start of the books, and still a captive of the Starks.

For the last time: You brought up Theon as a child. Then you turn right around and accuse me of doing it. Finally in the post above me, you accuse me of ad hominems when you are doing just that yourself. Pathetic.

[Julia H.]

Comparing Theon to Gregor. Theon wasn't torturing people for the hell of it and the Rivermen did nothing to deserve it. Mikken and Benfred were warned and brought their fates on themselves. If they're to stupid to realize that spitting at and insulting the guy who just conquered you, then that's on them.

I compared Theon's rights to Gregor's rights - they both were in power over people who had no weapons, in both cases some of those people were killed. I did not say and will never say that Theon and Gregor were similar in every way. Gregor is a purely evil villain, while Theon is not. But they had the same kind of rights - the rights of conquerors (and no other rights). These rights gave them the same kind of responsibility even if the actual deeds they committed were not the same.

I would like to give my opinion on all of this :

1. I don't think you can blame benfred and mikken, I agree that they chose death as in they knew what was gonna happen if they kept pushing, but they were being invaded, so not their fault.

2. however, Theon saw this as the only option, I don't get why we are talking about "he could have done this, he could have done this" we are talking about Theon here, who is a horrible leader and is desparatly trying to prove himself and he thinks that for that to happen he needs to be hard (and even though he's got it difficult with letting his men do the iron born thing) and follow his culture (what his men want, what they respect) Theon was technically in power and maybe if he'd been a good leader who had enough stamina to command his men to do what he wanted instead of trying to appease them by doing what they wanted, then maybe he would have been able to act on said technical power positive, but as it is, he's naturally a bad leader and he's deeply insecure (which doesn't help) so I think if he was actually in power is debatable, he could have been, with a different personality.

3. why is Theon killing 3 people brought up as a way of "how dare you defend him?" because I thought we were talking about asoiaf, a story in which most characters are responsible for waaaaay more then 3 deaths (and yeah theon is too but his death count would still be low when compared most characters) so why, on a forum where we discuss, defend and are fans of pretty much every character on here, is this a valid way to say "you can't defend Theon" yes, Theon has done bad things, I've never denied that, but so have the other characters (and before anyone says anything: no that doesn't make his crimes less bad, but it does make it a double standard if you hate him for killing people and not the other characters)

2. I agree that Theon is a bad leader. The problem is being a bad leader does not absolve anyone of responsibility. And why can't he think of other options? He is certainly not a child or a mentally retarded person who cannot think clearly and therefore cannot be held responsible for his actions. It is Theon who wants to be a lord in Winterfell, the conquest is his choice alone, and he never wonders whether he is prepared to lead or not, but he is an adult person therefore responsible for his bad decision and its consequences.

3. Well, "other characters" sounds too general to me. There are characters (like Theon) that I blame for the killings they are responsible for and there are characters (like Gregor) that I hate for the killings they have committed (directly or indirectly), and there are also situations where I think the killing is justified or necessary, therefore I do not hate or blame the character in question. The number of people killed is certainly not the only factor that counts when I (personally) condemn or absolve a character. I definitely think Theon can be blamed for failing to explore the other options he has.

Responsibility is always a key factor. A true leader is aware of his responsibility. The reason why the Starks do not use a paid executioner is to bring it home that there is blood on their hands - even when the killing is considered justified. That is responsibility, which must never be forgotten or rejected. Theon rejects the responsibility that comes with the leadership he has assumed, blaming the victim or someone else. If he acknowledged his own responsibility, he could then decide whether, according to his own conscience, what he did was truly justified or not. (Obviously, "he brought it on himself" is not the kind of justification I'm thinking of.) If he admitted that he cannot justify (to himself) what he did (and he probably could not, otherwise why would he deny his responsibility?), he might become a better leader (or at least a better person) by trying to avoid making the same mistake again. Instead, he constantly rejects a leader's responsibility and he ends up losing the power for which he has taken lives.

[INCBlackbird]

2. I agree that Theon is a bad leader. The problem is being a bad leader does not absolve anyone of responsibility. And why can't he think of other options? He is certainly not a child or a mentally retarded person who cannot think clearly and therefore cannot be held responsible for his actions. It is Theon who wants to be a lord in Winterfell, the conquest is his choice alone, and he never wonders whether he is prepared to lead or not, but he is an adult person therefore responsible for his bad decision and its consequences.

3. Well, "other characters" sounds too general to me. There are characters (like Theon) that I blame for the killings they are responsible for and there are characters (like Gregor) that I hate for the killings they have committed (directly or indirectly), and there are also situations where I think the killing is justified or necessary, therefore I do not hate or blame the character in question. The number of people killed is certainly not the only factor that counts when I (personally) condemn or absolve a character. I definitely think Theon can be blamed for failing to explore the other options he has.

Responsibility is always a key factor. A true leader is aware of his responsibility. The reason why the Starks do not use a paid executioner is to bring it home that there is blood on their hands - even when the killing is considered justified. That is responsibility, which must never be forgotten or rejected. Theon rejects the responsibility that comes with the leadership he has assumed, blaming the victim or someone else. If he acknowledged his own responsibility, he could then decide whether, according to his own conscience, what he did was truly justified or not. (Obviously, "he brought it on himself" is not the kind of justification I'm thinking of.) If he admitted that he cannot justify (to himself) what he did (and he probably could not, otherwise why would he deny his responsibility?), he might become a better leader (or at least a better person) by trying to avoid making the same mistake again. Instead, he constantly rejects a leader's responsibility and he ends up losing the power for which he has taken lives.

I don't think it's possible to ever get out of an argument like this because it all depends on personal morals, beliefs,... in general it's very personal. I think I am the kind of person who won't easily blame someone for something they do when I feel they didn't set out to do so (which Theon didn't, he was very much lost in his own delusions); especially if they feel guilty about it. and that goes for all characters, including the ones I don't like, I don't think you'll often find me accusing characters and saying they could have done this and this and this. because it's more complicated then that, a person is limited by being a person and by what limits come with being said specific person. futhermore I tend to put less blame on characters who kill someone in the spur of the moment because they didn't know what else to do (Theon, Jaime) then characters who knew exactly what they were doing and felt totally rightious on doing what they were doing, whether they actually were or weren't doesn't matter to me in this case (Ned Stark). and just before I get screamed at for saying "ned is a bad person" or something, i'm not at all saying that, I actually thikn he's a great person, certainly compared to other characters in asoiaf, this is all my personal moral code. all of that being said, i'll give you my two cents on the matter :

2. I agree thta he still has responsiblity, but non the less it's more complicated then that. Theon not being retarded and not being a child doesn't matter, it's not because one is an adult by law that they therefor have all the capabilities adults usually have. Theon has been a captive half his life, he's never had control over his life and he's dealt very badly with this lack of control and fear. a combination of his situation, the society he lives in, his own beliefs (I think mostly coming from his own family) and his personality he dealt with such lack of control and his fear of resentment by lying to himself and romanticizing his situation. the problem is that he's conditioned himself to do so, it was his way of dealing, but that doesn't work when you're a leader and of course he's still doing it, one doesn't simply stop, especially when you've been doing it for years! the reason Theon doesn't come up with other options is because he is thinking that he has to be "strong", emotionless... but through pretending to be those things he fails to be both because for a person to be "strong" they have to DEMAND respect, not beg for it to be given to them by trying to please his men (who should be pleasing him), and you cannot fake to be emotionelss (especially when you're so bad at it) that only makes you more vulnearable. this is why I don't think you can say he was really in power, he was certainly trying to be, and deluding himself into believing he was, but he was most probably an open book, presenting himself for manipulation. this is why I think he is still responsible (of course he is, you can't absolve people of responsiblity on their actions no matter how it came to that) but I would say that there is a difference if lets say, the same thing had happened under tywin lannister (who is an excelent leader), you see what I'm getting at? it's complicated.

3. what I'm talking about is of course theon's case specifically, I do agree with making those distinctions, that's the way you sould be looking at it. but then again, there is the question of "when is a murder justified/nessacary?" I'm not going into that but I think that in many cases that's up for debate. the number doesn't always matter no. but I don't think theon can be blamed or not exploring the other options, see explanation above.

I think there are many characters who fall under theon's cathegory who do not get blamed for their responsibility in the murder of innocent people, and I personally think they should be, and Theon should be too. but that is in both cases no reason to tell others they can't like the character, or ask them how they could, or say they are therefor "evil" (not that that was said about theon on here, but I have seen it a lot). lots of people see theon extremely black and white and base their opinion of him on misconceptions, which is why hate (in my opinion often underserved) annoys me, just like it annoys me when it's directed at sansa or catelyn (whom I don't even like at all)

[Lord Reaver]

Responsibility is always a key factor. A true leader is aware of his responsibility. The reason why the Starks do not use a paid executioner is to bring it home that there is blood on their hands - even when the killing is considered justified. That is responsibility, which must never be forgotten or rejected. Theon rejects the responsibility that comes with the leadership he has assumed, blaming the victim or someone else. If he acknowledged his own responsibility, he could then decide whether, according to his own conscience, what he did was truly justified or not. (Obviously, "he brought it on himself" is not the kind of justification I'm thinking of.) If he admitted that he cannot justify (to himself) what he did (and he probably could not, otherwise why would he deny his responsibility?), he might become a better leader (or at least a better person) by trying to avoid making the same mistake again. Instead, he constantly rejects a leader's responsibility and he ends up losing the power for which he has taken lives.

Nonsense. Ned uses exactly the same justification as Theon does, when he executes Gared. Gared "brought it on himself" by fleeing from the Night's Watch. Ned does nothing to determine guilt, or seek out alternative punishments, he just cuts his head off, end of story.

Same thing with Theon and Benfred Tallheart. Anyone with a lick of sense knows that spitting at your captor is asking for a quick death, which he is granted. Exactly like anyone knows that deserting from the NW means you'll be killed.

[Sword of the Morgan]

I just have a feeling that Theon is going to end up as Lord of Pyke, but how he gets there is beyond me. I do think the truth will come out about the Stark boys and he'll be spared an execution. I've read the theory about his death being used to resurrect Jon, but that's a bit much I think.

[INCBlackbird]

Nonsense. Ned uses exactly the same justification as Theon does, when he executes Gared. Gared "brought it on himself" by fleeing from the Night's Watch. Ned does nothing to determine guilt, or seek out alternative punishments, he just cuts his head off, end of story.

Same thing with Theon and Benfred Tallheart. Anyone with a lick of sense knows that spitting at your captor is asking for a quick death, which he is granted. Exactly like anyone knows that deserting from the NW means you'll be killed.

I think there's a difference in the sense that Ned didn't question his own decision by having to tell himself he was oh so justified, he totally believed he was justified and didn't feel guillty, whereas Theon told himself over and over again in his head, how justified he was because he didn't actually believe he was and felt guitly. and this is one of the reasons I like Theon and not Ned (even though Ned's way generally leads to better things happening)

[Little Member]

So, spitting and shouting is a reason to slaughter someone? There are no alternatives? Shouting and spitting is so deadly dangerous you must kill in defense against it? Ridiculous! And why the hell should someone respect their conquerer? That's like saying that Theon is disloyal for choosing his family over his past-captors.

And how did Dany respond when she was spat upon in her court? She restrained her man and said, " noone has died from a little spittle." Theon is a prideful jackass. He fondled anything with udders, even his sister. He abused Kyra. He took WF without a thought of how he was to defend it. Seventeen men? A well seasoned archer could have stolen the castle from him. Why should anyone have followed such a stupid vain man? It was folly to take WF and he could not be reasoned with when his sister came to rescue him before the northmen came to surround the castle. Now, the ironmen will remember the folly of WF. They will believe it cost them the North. They will remember Moat Cailin, and how he lied scores of his own men to their deaths by flaying. Yes, Theon sounds like prime kingly material to me. The perfect strategist. I think he's done. He's got a little bit of redemption when he saved Jeyne. The best he could hope for. Asha hurrying him along to the Wall in some vain attempt to spare his life by having him take the black is just torturing the poor man.

[sweetsunray]

Nothing in that quote refers to Theon being a child. He was 19 at the start of the books, and still a captive of the Starks.

For the last time: You brought up Theon as a child. Then you turn right around and accuse me of doing it. Finally in the post above me, you accuse me of ad hominems when you are doing just that yourself. Pathetic.

Never occurred to you that I supposed you were talking about Theon the child? I assumed you did, because captives tend to protest when they are taken captive, rather than when they are captives for a decade or so.

Lord Reaver: you accused me of lying, of being a 5 year old. You attacked me very aggressively and personally first for what seems to have been a misunderstanding. And yes, I accuse you of bad faith and malicious posting exactly because of this. And as long as you project malice upon my part, we have nothing more to say to each other.

You can totally disregard the rest of this post, because it doesn't address you anymore.

To answer Lee with the extension of an adult version of Theon: adult captives shouting, spitting and trashing about can be easily restrained without driving a sword through them. Police and prison guards do it everyday, and I see Ned doing that first, before killing Theon.

[Julia H.]

I don't think it's possible to ever get out of an argument like this because it all depends on personal morals, beliefs,... in general it's very personal. I think I am the kind of person who won't easily blame someone for something they do when I feel they didn't set out to do so (which Theon didn't, he was very much lost in his own delusions); especially if they feel guilty about it. and that goes for all characters, including the ones I don't like, I don't think you'll often find me accusing characters and saying they could have done this and this and this. because it's more complicated then that, a person is limited by being a person and by what limits come with being said specific person. futhermore I tend to put less blame on characters who kill someone in the spur of the moment because they didn't know what else to do (Theon, Jaime) then characters who knew exactly what they were doing and felt totally rightious on doing what they were doing, whether they actually were or weren't doesn't matter to me in this case (Ned Stark). and just before I get screamed at for saying "ned is a bad person" or something, i'm not at all saying that, I actually thikn he's a great person, certainly compared to other characters in asoiaf, this is all my personal moral code. all of that being said, i'll give you my two cents on the matter :

2. I agree thta he still has responsiblity, but non the less it's more complicated then that. Theon not being retarded and not being a child doesn't matter, it's not because one is an adult by law that they therefor have all the capabilities adults usually have. Theon has been a captive half his life, he's never had control over his life and he's dealt very badly with this lack of control and fear. a combination of his situation, the society he lives in, his own beliefs (I think mostly coming from his own family) and his personality he dealt with such lack of control and his fear of resentment by lying to himself and romanticizing his situation. the problem is that he's conditioned himself to do so, it was his way of dealing, but that doesn't work when you're a leader and of course he's still doing it, one doesn't simply stop, especially when you've been doing it for years! the reason Theon doesn't come up with other options is because he is thinking that he has to be "strong", emotionless... but through pretending to be those things he fails to be both because for a person to be "strong" they have to DEMAND respect, not beg for it to be given to them by trying to please his men (who should be pleasing him), and you cannot fake to be emotionelss (especially when you're so bad at it) that only makes you more vulnearable. this is why I don't think you can say he was really in power, he was certainly trying to be, and deluding himself into believing he was, but he was most probably an open book, presenting himself for manipulation. this is why I think he is still responsible (of course he is, you can't absolve people of responsiblity on their actions no matter how it came to that) but I would say that there is a difference if lets say, the same thing had happened under tywin lannister (who is an excelent leader), you see what I'm getting at? it's complicated.

3. what I'm talking about is of course theon's case specifically, I do agree with making those distinctions, that's the way you sould be looking at it. but then again, there is the question of "when is a murder justified/nessacary?" I'm not going into that but I think that in many cases that's up for debate. the number doesn't always matter no. but I don't think theon can be blamed or not exploring the other options, see explanation above.

I think there are many characters who fall under theon's cathegory who do not get blamed for their responsibility in the murder of innocent people, and I personally think they should be, and Theon should be too. but that is in both cases no reason to tell others they can't like the character, or ask them how they could, or say they are therefor "evil" (not that that was said about theon on here, but I have seen it a lot). lots of people see theon extremely black and white and base their opinion of him on misconceptions, which is why hate (in my opinion often underserved) annoys me, just like it annoys me when it's directed at sansa or catelyn (whom I don't even like at all)

I agree that there is a reason why Theon behaves the way he does. There is always a reason. Simply there being a reason does not mean that just any deed is morally acceptable. Theon keeps deluding himself, which is tragic, but when you start a game that puts lots of lives in danger, self-delusion is not a reason to absolve you of responsibility. The point where I joined this debate was where people started discussing whether Theon was responsible for certain deaths in Winterfell even if he did not kill those people with his own hand. You seem to agree that Theon is responsible but say that he was kind of predetermined to make those decisions because he was Theon and Theon could only do one thing. I believe Theon had free will in an ethical sense as much as most ordinary humans have, and he had choices to make, and his choices showed who he was. He did not have to conquer Winterfell in the first place. Theon is not the only character in ASOIAF who has issues or who has experienced something terrible. If you rob him of his free will, then he is not responsible, and he is nothing more than a child, then he is like Tommen, who sits on the IT but is only a puppet of the people around him. What you seem to be saying (if I understand you correctly) makes Theon a mere puppet of circumstances.

Nonsense. Ned uses exactly the same justification as Theon does, when he executes Gared. Gared "brought it on himself" by fleeing from the Night's Watch. Ned does nothing to determine guilt, or seek out alternative punishments, he just cuts his head off, end of story.

Same thing with Theon and Benfred Tallheart. Anyone with a lick of sense knows that spitting at your captor is asking for a quick death, which he is granted. Exactly like anyone knows that deserting from the NW means you'll be killed.

I refuse the "nonsense" comment. Use arguments to debate what I say, but refrain from offensive remarks.

I don't think you understood what I was saying. Ned executes Gared because Gared is a deserter (and Ned makes sure to find out he is a deserter, not just a black brother on an errand) and the law (such as they have) says desertion from the NW is a capital offence. But Ned takes responsibility for the execution by saying "I do sentence you to die" and by carrying out the execution himself. You can debate whether his decision was morally right or wrong, but he acknowledges it to be his decision. Gared became a deserter but it was up to Ned to uphold the law or not and he decided to uphold it. Ned is fully aware that Gared's blood is on his hands. He does not blame others and he never says he had no choice. He made the decision he thought best. If the decision turns out to be a bad one, it will be on Ned's conscience, too.

Theon (in ACoK) never gets to this point. Instead of acknowledging his own responsibility, instead of admitting why he acted as he did, he keeps telling himself it was the victims' fault, it was the others' fault, it was never what he wanted, he never had a choice - and all that while he is playing the lord of the castle, demanding respect from all and sundry.

The victims may have chosen to endanger their lives, and that was also their free will. But Theon, too, had his free will when he reacted.

I think there's a difference in the sense that Ned didn't question his own decision by having to tell himself he was oh so justified, he totally believed he was justified and didn't feel guillty, whereas Theon told himself over and over again in his head, how justified he was because he didn't actually believe he was and felt guitly. and this is one of the reasons I like Theon and not Ned (even though Ned's way generally leads to better things happening)

My problem with Theon (in ACoK) is that he does not try to jusitfy what he did as his own action. He only tells himself he was forced to do this or that (by the victim, for example), that he had no choice. He would feel guilty if he did not reject the idea that he is responsible, but he does not let himself acknowledge this guilt. This is not an attitude that a leader can afford. Yes, Theon has an idea of the difference between right and wrong, and when he does something that he feels wrong, he does not face his guilt, instead he blames someone else.

If Ned Stark feels justified in his decisions, it is because he makes the decisions that he considers right, not because he does not have a conscience.

Theon will face his responsibility for his actions later on, for example, in the moment when he thinks he should have gone to the Red Wedding with Robb. But not here.

[sweetsunray]

I think there's a difference in the sense that Ned didn't question his own decision by having to tell himself he was oh so justified, he totally believed he was justified and didn't feel guillty, whereas Theon told himself over and over again in his head, how justified he was because he didn't actually believe he was and felt guitly. and this is one of the reasons I like Theon and not Ned (even though Ned's way generally leads to better things happening)

Guilt is an appropriate feeling when you failed your responsibility. I don't feel guilty when I give a reprimand, note or an extra task to a pupil for acting out. I could only feel guilty over that if I in someway felt I was responsible for the wrongdoing of my pupils. If I would feel responsible for the bad behaviour of my pupils, I'd end up being a bad teacher. So, I disagree, Ned does not have to feel guilty for executing a deserter of the Wall, nor should he be disliked over it. He does however feel it as a painful part of his responsibility, per the weirwood scene and ritual afterwards, and he is not without a conscious or even without emotion.

[Lee-Sensei]

I compared Theon's rights to Gregor's rights - they both were in power over people who had no weapons, in both cases some of those people were killed. I did not say and will never say that Theon and Gregor were similar in every way. Gregor is a purely evil villain, while Theon is not. But they had the same kind of rights - the rights of conquerors (and no other rights). These rights gave them the same kind of responsibility even if the actual deeds they committed were not the same.

And if the people Gregor conquered were stupid enough to spit in his face after repeated warnings, he'd be within his rights to kill him.

[Julia H.]

And he is also responsible for all the deaths he causes.

[Lee-Sensei]

And he is also responsible for all the deaths he causes.

Yes. And Theon wasn't wrong to kill those idiots, but we're not going to agree so let's leave it at that.

[Julia H.]

No, we aren't going to agree.

[INCBlackbird]

I agree that there is a reason why Theon behaves the way he does. There is always a reason. Simply there being a reason does not mean that just any deed is morally acceptable. Theon keeps deluding himself, which is tragic, but when you start a game that puts lots of lives in danger, self-delusion is not a reason to absolve you of responsibility. The point where I joined this debate was where people started discussing whether Theon was responsible for certain deaths in Winterfell even if he did not kill those people with his own hand. You seem to agree that Theon is responsible but say that he was kind of predetermined to make those decisions because he was Theon and Theon could only do one thing. I believe Theon had free will in an ethical sense as much as most ordinary humans have, and he had choices to make, and his choices showed who he was. He did not have to conquer Winterfell in the first place. Theon is not the only character in ASOIAF who has issues or who has experienced something terrible. If you rob him of his free will, then he is not responsible, and he is nothing more than a child, then he is like Tommen, who sits on the IT but is only a puppet of the people around him. What you seem to be saying (if I understand you correctly) makes Theon a mere puppet of circumstances.

I didn’t say his deeds were morally acceptable. I think it was in another thread that I said that I consider deeds wrong, rather then the people commiting them. a deed in itself can be wrong but nessacary. I’m not saying that the people theon killed were, I’m merely saying there’s a difference between a wrong deed and a wrong person. “You seem to agree that Theon is responsible but say that he was kind of predetermined to make those decisions because he was Theon and Theon could only do one thing.” That is exactly what I’m saying yes!

“I believe Theon had free will in an ethical sense as much as most ordinary humans have” I do not agree with this because most ordinary humans are not held captive half their life, they do not grow up knowing they might get killed any day and therefor they do not get so messed up that they have to resort to deluding themselves to deal with their situation. And of course there are people who would be able to deal much better and much different then theon did, but that does not mean they are therefor better people, theon was handed a very bad hand in life and he used it very badly but in herently he’s not a bad person, he does not enjoy violence… all he wanted was to be accepted in life, something we’d all want if we didn’t have it. So I think he’s judged very hard by the fandom, probably mostly existing out of people who are not completely along in life and already have that acceptance, it’s easy to judge when you already have that and there is no reason for you to be desparate for it and do stupid things for it and be messed up because of it.

“He did not have to conquer Winterfell in the first place.” No he didn’t, but this was again a desparate attempt to get accepted. And there’s a lot more to it, it’s all about theon wanting to belong in winterfell and to be accepted by it’s inhabitants (not that conquering them will in any way achieve that, but theon believed it would) I don’t think there’s a lot of people in this world who would have done any better then him in his situation.

“Theon is not the only character in ASOIAF who has issues or who has experienced something terrible.” LOL, defenitly. Most of them have been through horrible things, and most of them respond with doing stupid/bad things, just like Theon. some deal better then others of course…

“If you rob him of his free will, then he is not responsible, and he is nothing more than a child, then he is like Tommen, who sits on the IT but is only a puppet of the people around him.” I agree with this to an extend, I just don’t look at it this black and white, I’m saying there’s a scale of responsibility and a scale of free will and I’d put Tywin (for example) higher on the scale of responsibility then I’d put Theon. because I think in many ways he is indeed a puppet of circumstances (he was for half his life, and it effected him, it’s hard to shake that off in a matter of weeks)

I'll respond to the Ned part in a different post together with what sweetsunray said.

[INCBlackbird]

My problem with Theon (in ACoK) is that he does not try to jusitfy what he did as his own action. He only tells himself he was forced to do this or that (by the victim, for example), that he had no choice. He would feel guilty if he did not reject the idea that he is responsible, but he does not let himself acknowledge this guilt. This is not an attitude that a leader can afford. Yes, Theon has an idea of the difference between right and wrong, and when he does something that he feels wrong, he does not face his guilt, instead he blames someone else.

If Ned Stark feels justified in his decisions, it is because he makes the decisions that he considers right, not because he does not have a conscience.

Theon will face his responsibility for his actions later on, for example, in the moment when he thinks he should have gone to the Red Wedding with Robb. But not here.

Guilt is an appropriate feeling when you failed your responsibility. I don't feel guilty when I give a reprimand, note or an extra task to a pupil for acting out. I could only feel guilty over that if I in someway felt I was responsible for the wrongdoing of my pupils. If I would feel responsible for the bad behaviour of my pupils, I'd end up being a bad teacher. So, I disagree, Ned does not have to feel guilty for executing a deserter of the Wall, nor should he be disliked over it. He does however feel it as a painful part of his responsibility, per the weirwood scene and ritual afterwards, and he is not without a conscious or even without emotion.

responding to you both at the same time because my reply is kinda to the both of you (except for the specific things I quote)

“He would feel guilty if he did not reject the idea that he is responsible, but he does not let himself acknowledge this guilt.” I have to disagree with this, but I actually had this conversation before (or well sorta) with sweetsunray. But I’ll say it again, people tell themselves “it’s not my fault, I had no choice” BECAUSE they feel guilty. If they wouldn’t feel guilty they wouldn’t have to try and make themselves believe that stuff. It’s a way of dealing with guilt, for people who can’t deal with guilt because it hurts too much, and it’s something I do myself. If he did not reject the idea that he is responsible well… I don’t know, can you do that when you feel guilty? I certainly can’t. how do you deal with it then when you’re just like “I did this horrible thing, I’m a horrible person” how do you ever feel ok again?

“This is not an attitude that a leader can afford.” This is true, but then again, we have established that theon is a horrible leader. The fact that he is a horrible leader and is not the most stable person does not mean he is a bad person.

“If Ned Stark feels justified in his decisions, it is because he makes the decisions that he considers right, not because he does not have a conscience.” Did not say he does not have a conscience, he certainly does, but this is actually the exact problem I have with Ned Stark, he considers his decisions right, so he doesn’t feel guilty about them.

It’s all good and well that he does the killing himself to remind himself it’s not easy. But then he does that and he’s all “well, I did the best I could, I did the killing myself, I’m so moral and righteous and oh! My morals are so superior to everyone else’ my conscious is clear” while Theon is the one who can’t sleep from all the guilt nightmares.

My biggest problem with Ned (the same problem I have with all characters I dislike) is that he’s self righteous.

I’d pick the messed up guy who falls deeper and deeper into his own pit until he does something horrible and then feels guilty about it any day over the guy who is convinced he’s got it all figured out and kills someone in the name of the law without feeling any guilt over it because it is the law, so no reason to feel bad about it.

And that’s another thing, Ned is completely in control when he does what he does, he’s the guy who does the deed with the steady hand, completely aware of what he’s doing and convinced it’s the right decision, after all, the guy broke the law “off with his head” while theon is the one fidgeting trying to get himself to believe that what he’s doing is the right thing, because his men think so, but actually he knows it’s not and it knags at him.

“I don't feel guilty when I give a reprimand, note or an extra task to a pupil for acting out. I could only feel guilty over that if I in someway felt I was responsible for the wrongdoing of my pupils. If I would feel responsible for the bad behaviour of my pupils, I'd end up being a bad teacher.” See, I would feel guilty about it, because no matter what said student did, I probably ruined their day, and I’d be thinking about how bad their parents would react to it and so on. Maybe it’d make me a bad teacher (I said from the start that Ned’s way is obviously infinitly more effective) but I personally prefer human beings like that, because they doubt themselves, they are not self righteous when they actually do something wrong but believe they absolutely did the right thing, because their way is the right way… there is no right way, everyone is different and that should be respected.

“So, I disagree, Ned does not have to feel guilty for executing a deserter of the Wall” I don’t think he should feel guilty because I think he did something wrong (in that world, it’s how things are handled) but I think he should feel guilty because that seems like the expected response to taking a person’s life away, no matter what the circemstances are.

i'd like to add again that this is all personal, all characters I have ever disliked in my life were pretty much exactly like Ned, and had at the very least the self rightiousness in common. I do not like people who look at situations all black and white and believe there is always a "the right thing to do" because life is not as simple as that, and humans aren't as simple as that, and they shouldn't be reduced to anything that simple. if it weren't for that i'd probably love Ned, he's a really good person (exceptionally good in this particular world) and he defenitly means well, but there are aspects off him that I just can't overlook, and I don't think that's ever gonna change. I prefer the messed up guys who do their best but fail and discover their own morals through those failings, also because they tend to be less judgemental of others.

btw, sweetsunray, I saw you mention a dutch book in another thread (that sounded really interesting btw) are you dutch by any chance?