What happens next with Theon?

[Lord Reaver]

I refuse the "nonsense" comment. Use arguments to debate what I say, but refrain from offensive remarks.

If what you say makes no sense, then I'll point it out. If you find that offensive, well, I'd say grow a tougher skin.

The victims may have chosen to endanger their lives, and that was also their free will. But Theon, too, had his free will when he reacted.

And his reaction was to have them killed. Just like Ned's reaction to Gared leaving the wall to tell everyone about the White Walkers was to kill him.

[Ser-Hodor]

The part where The Reader mentions the old kingsmoot whuch was nullified when an absent son returned reeks of forshadowing for hus future

[RoamingRonin]

There's a lot suggesting he will be executed in front of a weirwood or that someone wants him to be executed in front of one which makes me doubt it will happen. Not sure why the weirwood needs his blood anyway.

I don't see him returning to Pyke, though. He's too deranged and disgusting to do any actual ruling. Pyke just seems inconsequential to his story.

The part where The Reader mentions the old kingsmoot whuch was nullified when an absent son returned reeks of forshadowing for hus future

I see what you did there.

[Julia H.]

1) I didn’t say his deeds were morally acceptable. I think it was in another thread that I said that I consider deeds wrong, rather then the people commiting them. a deed in itself can be wrong but nessacary. I’m not saying that the people theon killed were, I’m merely saying there’s a difference between a wrong deed and a wrong person. “You seem to agree that Theon is responsible but say that he was kind of predetermined to make those decisions because he was Theon and Theon could only do one thing.” That is exactly what I’m saying yes!

“I believe Theon had free will in an ethical sense as much as most ordinary humans have” 2) I do not agree with this because most ordinary humans are not held captive half their life, they do not grow up knowing they might get killed any day and therefor they do not get so messed up that they have to resort to deluding themselves to deal with their situation. And of course there are people who would be able to deal much better and much different then theon did, but that does not mean they are therefor better people, theon was handed a very bad hand in life and he used it very badly but in herently he’s not a bad person, he does not enjoy violence… all he wanted was to be accepted in life, something we’d all want if we didn’t have it. So I think he’s judged very hard by the fandom, probably mostly existing out of people who are not completely along in life and already have that acceptance, it’s easy to judge when you already have that and there is no reason for you to be desparate for it and do stupid things for it and be messed up because of it.

“He did not have to conquer Winterfell in the first place.” 3) No he didn’t, but this was again a desparate attempt to get accepted. And there’s a lot more to it, it’s all about theon wanting to belong in winterfell and to be accepted by it’s inhabitants (not that conquering them will in any way achieve that, but theon believed it would) I don’t think there’s a lot of people in this world who would have done any better then him in his situation.

“Theon is not the only character in ASOIAF who has issues or who has experienced something terrible.” LOL, defenitly. Most of them have been through horrible things, and most of them respond with doing stupid/bad things, just like Theon. some deal better then others of course…

“If you rob him of his free will, then he is not responsible, and he is nothing more than a child, then he is like Tommen, who sits on the IT but is only a puppet of the people around him.” 4) I agree with this to an extend, I just don’t look at it this black and white, I’m saying there’s a scale of responsibility and a scale of free will and I’d put Tywin (for example) higher on the scale of responsibility then I’d put Theon. because I think in many ways he is indeed a puppet of circumstances (he was for half his life, and it effected him, it’s hard to shake that off in a matter of weeks)

I'll respond to the Ned part in a different post together with what sweetsunray said.

1) But I'm discussing Theon's deeds here. I never said he is evil, but I do say that he has made some very bad choices. Actually if we say Theon has no choice and no responsibility because of what he is, that is quite close to saying he is a bad person. My personal opinion of Theon is that he would have been able to do better because he understood the basic difference between right and wrong, and he could have made better choices, but he didn't, and that is his tragedy.

2) I don't know about the fandom in general, but I, personally, do try to judge Theon fairly. I can't see him as a totally innocent lamb though.

3) So he made a grave mistake. I agree with you about his motivations, but he still had a choice.

4) Do I look at it as black and white? Where did I say that Theon was as bad or as powerful as Tywin? Just because I can't pat Theon on the shoulder for what he did in Winterfell?

responding to you both at the same time because my reply is kinda to the both of you (except for the specific things I quote)

“He would feel guilty if he did not reject the idea that he is responsible, but he does not let himself acknowledge this guilt.” I have to disagree with this, but I actually had this conversation before (or well sorta) with sweetsunray. But I’ll say it again, people tell themselves “it’s not my fault, I had no choice” BECAUSE they feel guilty. 1) If they wouldn’t feel guilty they wouldn’t have to try and make themselves believe that stuff. It’s a way of dealing with guilt, for people who can’t deal with guilt because it hurts too much, and it’s something I do myself. If he did not reject the idea that he is responsible well… I don’t know, can you do that when you feel guilty? I certainly can’t. how do you deal with it then when you’re just like “I did this horrible thing, I’m a horrible person” how do you ever feel ok again?

“This is not an attitude that a leader can afford.” This is true, but then again, we have established that theon is a horrible leader. The fact that he is a horrible leader and is not the most stable person does not mean he is a bad person.

“If Ned Stark feels justified in his decisions, it is because he makes the decisions that he considers right, not because he does not have a conscience.” 2. Did not say he does not have a conscience, he certainly does, but this is actually the exact problem I have with Ned Stark, he considers his decisions right, so he doesn’t feel guilty about them.

It’s all good and well that he does the killing himself to remind himself it’s not easy. But then he does that and he’s all “well, I did the best I could, I did the killing myself, I’m so moral and righteous and oh! My morals are so superior to everyone else’ my conscious is clear” while Theon is the one who can’t sleep from all the guilt nightmares.

My biggest problem with Ned (the same problem I have with all characters I dislike) is that he’s self righteous.

I’d pick the messed up guy who falls deeper and deeper into his own pit until he does something horrible and then feels guilty about it any day over the guy who is convinced he’s got it all figured out and kills someone in the name of the law without feeling any guilt over it because it is the law, so no reason to feel bad about it.

And that’s another thing, Ned is completely in control when he does what he does, he’s the guy who does the deed with the steady hand, completely aware of what he’s doing and convinced it’s the right decision, after all, the guy broke the law “off with his head” while theon is the one fidgeting trying to get himself to believe that what he’s doing is the right thing, because his men think so, but actually he knows it’s not and it knags at him.

“I don't feel guilty when I give a reprimand, note or an extra task to a pupil for acting out. I could only feel guilty over that if I in someway felt I was responsible for the wrongdoing of my pupils. If I would feel responsible for the bad behaviour of my pupils, I'd end up being a bad teacher.” See, I would feel guilty about it, because no matter what said student did, I probably ruined their day, and I’d be thinking about how bad their parents would react to it and so on. Maybe it’d make me a bad teacher (I said from the start that Ned’s way is obviously infinitly more effective) but I personally prefer human beings like that, because they doubt themselves, they are not self righteous when they actually do something wrong but believe they absolutely did the right thing, because their way is the right way… there is no right way, everyone is different and that should be respected.

“So, I disagree, Ned does not have to feel guilty for executing a deserter of the Wall” I don’t think he should feel guilty because I think he did something wrong (in that world, it’s how things are handled) but I think he should feel guilty because that seems like the expected response to taking a person’s life away, no matter what the circemstances are.

i'd like to add again that this is all personal, all characters I have ever disliked in my life were pretty much exactly like Ned, and had at the very least the self rightiousness in common. I do not like people who look at situations all black and white and believe there is always a "the right thing to do" because life is not as simple as that, and humans aren't as simple as that, and they shouldn't be reduced to anything that simple. if it weren't for that i'd probably love Ned, he's a really good person (exceptionally good in this particular world) and he defenitly means well, but there are aspects off him that I just can't overlook, and I don't think that's ever gonna change. I prefer the messed up guys who do their best but fail and discover their own morals through those failings, also because they tend to be less judgemental of others.

btw, sweetsunray, I saw you mention a dutch book in another thread (that sounded really interesting btw) are you dutch by any chance?

1) He does not have to think he is a horrible person just because he realizes that he has done something bad. There is always the possibility of atonement, the possibility of doing better next time. Facing one's guilt is difficult, but if Theon cannot accept responsibility, he should not crave positions of responsibility.

2) The way I see it is that Ned Stark chooses what he considers to be the morally right (or better) decision. But I don't think he is self-righteous. We do see him worry about a decision he has made, we do see him wonder whether he has done or is doing the right thing.

What I like about Jon Snow is exactly that he is never self-righteous, he always faces what he is, and although he wants to do what is right, he is often tormented by doubts whether he has made the correct judgement.

Theon may have guilty nightmares when he is asleep, but it only shows that denial (when he is awake) is not a good way to deal with his guilt. Bad dreams are no atonment if you keep doing what you know is wrong.

Everyone can make mistakes. All you can do is follow your conscience. Theon has a conscience, but I don't see that he follows what his conscience dictates.

If what you say makes no sense, then I'll point it out. If you find that offensive, well, I'd say grow a tougher skin.

And his reaction was to have them killed. Just like Ned's reaction to Gared leaving the wall to tell everyone about the White Walkers was to kill him.

If what I say does not make sense to you, you can ask me to explain it. That would be more polite.

[sweetsunray]

“I don't feel guilty when I give a reprimand, note or an extra task to a pupil for acting out. I could only feel guilty over that if I in someway felt I was responsible for the wrongdoing of my pupils. If I would feel responsible for the bad behaviour of my pupils, I'd end up being a bad teacher.” See, I would feel guilty about it, because no matter what said student did, I probably ruined their day, and I’d be thinking about how bad their parents would react to it and so on. Maybe it’d make me a bad teacher (I said from the start that Ned’s way is obviously infinitly more effective) but I personally prefer human beings like that, because they doubt themselves, they are not self righteous when they actually do something wrong but believe they absolutely did the right thing, because their way is the right way… there is no right way, everyone is different and that should be respected.

“So, I disagree, Ned does not have to feel guilty for executing a deserter of the Wall” I don’t think he should feel guilty because I think he did something wrong (in that world, it’s how things are handled) but I think he should feel guilty because that seems like the expected response to taking a person’s life away, no matter what the circemstances are.

i'd like to add again that this is all personal, all characters I have ever disliked in my life were pretty much exactly like Ned, and had at the very least the self rightiousness in common. I do not like people who look at situations all black and white and believe there is always a "the right thing to do" because life is not as simple as that, and humans aren't as simple as that, and they shouldn't be reduced to anything that simple. if it weren't for that i'd probably love Ned, he's a really good person (exceptionally good in this particular world) and he defenitly means well, but there are aspects off him that I just can't overlook, and I don't think that's ever gonna change. I prefer the messed up guys who do their best but fail and discover their own morals through those failings, also because they tend to be less judgemental of others.

btw, sweetsunray, I saw you mention a dutch book in another thread (that sounded really interesting btw) are you dutch by any chance?

It's something one can learn, INC. I used to feel guilty and responsible if a class wouldn't quite down, when I asked them to. I subconsciously supposed I had "asked" the wrong way. What would happen is that some pupils would guilt trip me, make excuses, etc... and well, at least a third of class was gone. And after a time, after a pure black/white situation where someone abused my understanding, non-judgmental nature and my belief there are always two sides to a story to parasite on me for money, for attention, for games and actually used my benefit of the doubt to turn it on me as a psychological weapon with the goal to destroy my identity, I've developed a totally different view on responsibility, what guilt to own or not, and setting boundaries. The key to that view is not black/white self righteousness, but the most humble view you can have about yourself in relation to others: that you do not have any control over what someone else thinks, feels, says, does. That's when I realized that it was a) my responsibility to ask pupils to be quiet while I'm explaining something b ) it is THEIR responsibility to shut up c) if they don't shut up, it's my responsibility to present them the consequences for it. Of course the consequences ought to be in proportion with the transgression. I don't feel guilty for them not being quiet after I asked them to, because I recognize I do not have control over another person's choices or behaviour, none. Only the pupils have control over whether they shut up or not. I can't make them shut up. It's not in my power. The only power I have, is writing a note for disrupting class or sending them elsewhere so I can get on with the lesson and give my time and energy to those who want to listen. The consequence comes from a very pragmatical pov, not from a "they'll do what I say, or else I'll show them who's in power." I do it, because my main responsibility is to teach. And no one pupil has the right to prevent the rest of his classmates from learning what I can teach them.

If I have no control over another person's choices and actions and behaviour, then why the hell should I feel ashamed or guilty for their choices? If you do not have any control over what others choose,or how they act or behave, over what they say, then why should you feel guilty over it? If Ned has no control whatsoever over someone deserting the NW, then why should he feel guilty over it? He shouldn't.

The reason for executing a deserter is as mentioned a pragmatical one. It's not just duty, but done for safety reasons. Since so many who've joined the NW were criminals in the first place, they will resort to anything after desertion. Ned has a responsibility towards his millers, villagers, farmers, etc. That they can live in peace without fear of some deserter stealing their food, money, horse, or slit their throat for it. Ned executes the deserter to keep his people safe. And we know and see in aGoT what deserters do when they are not caught in time: but for Theon it would have ended very badly for Bran an Robb. Though, I'm pretty sure those deserters had as good a reason to run than the one Ned executed. But it doesn't matter. Only their choices and actions matter.

It's got nothing to do with self-righteousness, but with the recognition of pure humility that one's control extends no further than one self. Feeling guilt and shame over what someone else does actually betrays the idea that you feel you can fix it and have some power or control over somebody else. The truth is that you can't.

ETA: Belgian, Flanders

[INCBlackbird]

1) But I'm discussing Theon's deeds here. I never said he is evil, but I do say that he has made some very bad choices. Actually if we say Theon has no choice and no responsibility because of what he is, that is quite close to saying he is a bad person. My personal opinion of Theon is that he would have been able to do better because he understood the basic difference between right and wrong, and he could have made better choices, but he didn't, and that is his tragedy.

2) I don't know about the fandom in general, but I, personally, do try to judge Theon fairly. I can't see him as a totally innocent lamb though.

3) So he made a grave mistake. I agree with you about his motivations, but he still had a choice.

4) Do I look at it as black and white? Where did I say that Theon was as bad or as powerful as Tywin? Just because I can't pat Theon on the shoulder for what he did in Winterfell?

1) He does not have to think he is a horrible person just because he realizes that he has done something bad. There is always the possibility of atonement, the possibility of doing better next time. Facing one's guilt is difficult, but if Theon cannot accept responsibility, he should not crave positions of responsibility.

2) The way I see it is that Ned Stark chooses what he considers to be the morally right (or better) decision. But I don't think he is self-righteous. We do see him worry about a decision he has made, we do see him wonder whether he has done or is doing the right thing.

What I like about Jon Snow is exactly that he is never self-righteous, he always faces what he is, and although he wants to do what is right, he is often tormented by doubts whether he has made the correct judgement.

Theon may have guilty nightmares when he is asleep, but it only shows that denial (when he is awake) is not a good way to deal with his guilt. Bad dreams are no atonment if you keep doing what you know is wrong.

Everyone can make mistakes. All you can do is follow your conscience. Theon has a conscience, but I don't see that he follows what his conscience dictates.

1) but he didn't make better choices not because he is a bad person but because he was young, inexperienced and messed up by what life had done to him so far.

2) I don't see him as totally innocent lamb either. I have said that I believe him to be responsible for several bad things. if you wanna know how the fandom judges him, look arround you. there's plenty of things being said about Theon, most of them based on misconceptions or double standards. you're one of the fairest people out there that I've argued about Theon with.

3) yep and making mistakes is part of being human.

4) well you said this : "If you rob him of his free will, then he is not responsible, and he is nothing more than a child, then he is like Tommen, who sits on the IT but is only a puppet of the people around him.” while I said from the start that I see him responsible, I take that as you saying that either he's completely responsible or he's not responsible at all. which is black and white. I said there's a scale of responsibility...

1) well yeah but doing better next time is a result of guilt, whether you directly tell yourself "I'll do better next time" or you tell yourself it's not your fault because you feel guilty. when I do this I do better next time as well because I realise that what I did was wrong, I do not need to acknowledge that to know it, that's the whole point of guilt being a feeling not a thought. and no he shouldn't crave positions of power, but it's not like he knew beforehand that he was a bad leader, he had to discover that through being a leader and making mistakes, that's how we learn in life, by making mistakes.

2) indeed he choses what he considers to be the morally right decision, and then sits on his high horse about how moral that decision is, and others aren't allowed to have other moral codes because his is superior. that's self rightious.

I like Jon snow for the same reason, he's one of my favourite characters. he's also one of the characters who seems to have the most "life experience" despite his dad being older but clearly having less. I think this is due to the fact that he actes the oppeside way of Theon, Theon is convinced he has to change in order to get the acceptance he wants, so he never puts himself in other peoples shoes, they aren't the problem, HE is, this is very very bad! and it's part of the reason I thikn he did so bad in winterfell. whereas jon is an observer. he does the exact oppesite, he constantly puts himself in other peoples shoes and considers how they might look at it. this is what I consider his best quality and I think this is the reason he's such a compassionate and overall smart person.

I didn't say it was a good way of dealing with it, I just said that he clearly has guilt and it does have the effect of him learning from his mistakes. I just don't think you can expect everyone to deal with a situation the best they can. no one is perfect, everyone has their flaws and their good sides. it's not because he could have dealt better that he therefor is a bad person.

why do you think theon doesn't follow his concience ? he save Jeyne Poole didn't he ?

[Lord Reaver]

2) The way I see it is that Ned Stark chooses what he considers to be the morally right (or better) decision. But I don't think he is self-righteous. We do see him worry about a decision he has made, we do see him wonder whether he has done or is doing the right thing.

What I like about Jon Snow is exactly that he is never self-righteous, he always faces what he is, and although he wants to do what is right, he is often tormented by doubts whether he has made the correct judgement.

Theon may have guilty nightmares when he is asleep, but it only shows that denial (when he is awake) is not a good way to deal with his guilt. Bad dreams are no atonment if you keep doing what you know is wrong.

Everyone can make mistakes. All you can do is follow your conscience. Theon has a conscience, but I don't see that he follows what his conscience dictates.

If what I say does not make sense to you, you can ask me to explain it. That would be more polite.

There's no need for you to explain, it's not that I don't understand the point you made. It's the fact your point makes no sense. Ergo, it's nonsense.

We see Ned worry about some decisions. Others, he doesn't worry about at all. The decision to kill Gared, for instance, doesn't offer it a thought after he's done. Same thing with the decision to keep Theon close in case he has to threaten Balon with killing him.

As for Theon "only" having bad dreams, that's patently false, as he vividly remembers the dreams when he wakes up, and rather than dismiss them as "just dreams", he keeps thinking about the incidents and feeling bad about it. There's no denial there.

It's quite disingenious to ask him to follow his conscience, it's not like he gets multiple chances or even plenty of time in which to make his decisions.

[Little Member]

Theon was a villian in the book up until the point he was taken captive. WF was the house of Starks. When he took the castle, he stole from the Starks(which are the heroes of the tale) When someone actively plots against the protagonist of the story, it makes them the antagonist. This whole arguement just speaks to the brilliance of GRRM to take a villian and twist him around into someone we make excuses for and cheer on. Like Jaime and the Hound, he seems to have a specialty for it. I think what makes Theon special is the fact he hasn't fully made that transformation yet. When Jaime and Sandor have their change of heart, the difference is night and day. Theon seems stuck in twilight. He wants so much to break out and become a hero, but something keeps him wanting to be loyal to that demon, Ramsay. I feel sorry for GRRM. I imagine getting into the head of Theon must have given him many sleepless nights. Now, why I believe Theon is somehow responsible for Ramsay beating Stannis. In the sample chapter, Theon wonders why Stannis won't let him go. He saved fArya after all, he is a hero. Stannis simply tells him that many of his allies see him as a turncloak and he will see that he answers for that charge. He doesn't mention that he's a king and will be sacrificed to R'hllor for his king's blood. At this point, noone told Theon his father is dead. Stannis then brings the conversation to Ramsay and refers to him as a bastard. Theon angrily admonishes Stannis screaming that he should never call Ramsay a bastard. He will hurt you. Theon has been threatened and been left hanging for days. He has no love for this new king. Asha requests at the end that Stannis honor the ways of his allies in the north by executing Theon under a weirwood tree. The chapter ends without a comment by Stannis which we can assume is foreshadowing. I think Asha isn't just asking this to save Theon a long agonizing death. I think she has a plan to save him. Stannis may take a few men out with him to the weirwood tree, but just for witnesses. I think Asha and the ironborn will be waiting in ambush. Just before the ironborn can spring their trap, I think Ramsay and his men will show up and all hell will break loose. I think Theon will somehow disarm one of the witnesses in the confusion and plunge the weapon into Stannis. This will stun and weaken him for someone else, maybe Ramsay to deliver a finishing blow. I believe Asha and the ironborn will haul off Theon before Ramsay can get him back. They will escape while Ramsay is too tied up in the ensuing battle. Yes, the frozen lake will come into play, but it won't get Ramsay. He has to live to write the bastard letter that I think he writes there at the frozen lake and sends it using Stannis' raven(the only one likely trained to fly to the Wall). Asha's plan is likely to have Theon take the black to be admonished of his crimes. There's no way, after the debaucle at WF and the betrayal at Moat Cailin he could ever show his face in the Iron Islands again. If he survives the journey north, and doesn't try to escape his sister to keep from facing Jon Snow, he'll become NW and fight in the final battle for the dawn. Of course, Jon would have to be somewhere else for this to happen.

[INCBlackbird]

It's something one can learn, INC. I used to feel guilty and responsible if a class wouldn't quite down, when I asked them to. I subconsciously supposed I had "asked" the wrong way. What would happen is that some pupils would guilt trip me, make excuses, etc... and well, at least a third of class was gone. And after a time, after a pure black/white situation where someone abused my understanding, non-judgmental nature and my belief there are always two sides to a story to parasite on me for money, for attention, for games and actually used my benefit of the doubt to turn it on me as a psychological weapon with the goal to destroy my identity, I've developed a totally different view on responsibility, what guilt to own or not, and setting boundaries. The key to that view is not black/white self righteousness, but the most humble view you can have about yourself in relation to others: that you do not have any control over what someone else thinks, feels, says, does. That's when I realized that it was a) my responsibility to ask pupils to be quiet while I'm explaining something b ) it is THEIR responsibility to shut up c) if they don't shut up, it's my responsibility to present them the consequences for it. Of course the consequences ought to be in proportion with the transgression. I don't feel guilty for them not being quiet after I asked them to, because I recognize I do not have control over another person's choices or behaviour, none. Only the pupils have control over whether they shut up or not. I can't make them shut up. It's not in my power. The only power I have, is writing a note for disrupting class or sending them elsewhere so I can get on with the lesson and give my time and energy to those who want to listen. The consequence comes from a very pragmatical pov, not from a "they'll do what I say, or else I'll show them who's in power." I do it, because my main responsibility is to teach. And no one pupil has the right to prevent the rest of his classmates from learning what I can teach them.

If I have no control over another person's choices and actions and behaviour, then why the hell should I feel ashamed or guilty for their choices? If you do not have any control over what others choose,or how they act or behave, over what they say, then why should you feel guilty over it? If Ned has no control whatsoever over someone deserting the NW, then why should he feel guilty over it? He shouldn't.

The reason for executing a deserter is as mentioned a pragmatical one. It's not just duty, but done for safety reasons. Since so many who've joined the NW were criminals in the first place, they will resort to anything after desertion. Ned has a responsibility towards his millers, villagers, farmers, etc. That they can live in peace without fear of some deserter stealing their food, money, horse, or slit their throat for it. Ned executes the deserter to keep his people safe. And we know and see in aGoT what deserters do when they are not caught in time: but for Theon it would have ended very badly for Bran an Robb. Though, I'm pretty sure those deserters had as good a reason to run than the one Ned executed. But it doesn't matter. Only their choices and actions matter.

It's got nothing to do with self-righteousness, but with the recognition of pure humility that one's control extends no further than one self. Feeling guilt and shame over what someone else does actually betrays the idea that you feel you can fix it and have some power or control over somebody else. The truth is that you can't.

ETA: Belgian, Flanders

Maybe we can learn it yeah, but that doesn’t mean you can expect everyone to be at that point already. “The key to that view is not black/white self-righteousness, but the most humble view you can have about yourself in relation to others: that you do not have any control over what someone else thinks, feels, says, does.” You indeed don’t have control over what someone else thinks, but you can be the cause of someone else pain, whether on purpose or not, so I wouldn’t say absolving yourself of any responsibility is being humble, it’s being self-righteous “I did the right thing, if they feel about it differently that’s their problem, I cannot possibly look at it from their point of view so I have no reason to feel guilty for any pain I might have caused” that is self-righteous. I agree that it’s not your responsibility if they don’t shut up, that’s not my problem, my problem lies here : “Of course the consequences ought to be in proportion with the transgression.” Because who decides what is in proportion, that’d be you, you are the one in power so you get to decide. And when you do so it is also your responsibility to question said decision, to not question it and believe your decision is the only right decision that everyone else should bow down to, is being self-righteous. “I don't feel guilty for them not being quiet after I asked them to, because I recognize I do not have control over another person's choices or behavior, none.” I’m not talking about what others did though, I’m talking about what you did, the punishment you gave them for not doing what they were supposed to. a punishment you consider right, but maybe they don’t, maybe an outsider doesn’t (then again maybe they do, but my point is that it’s not a black and white decision, to see it as such is being self-righteous).

“If Ned has no control whatsoever over someone deserting the NW, then why should he feel guilty over it? He shouldn't.” who’s talking about Ned feeling guilty because someone deserted the NW, I was talking about what HE did: the act of killing said men for it (without any trial whatsoever btw). That is something he did, you cannot say the deserter did that to himself! Ned executed that men and did not feel any responsibility over it, probably because he is the kind of black and white thinker who just thinks “well, he shouldn’t have deserted…” because obviously, life is that simple, right? That guy definitely deserted for no good reason, knowing it would mean his death! No questions asked, that’s the reason… he is like Javert in that way! when someone breaks the law they are emmediatly evil… (and I distinctly remember Javert being a villain, maybe my favourite villain of all time actually…)

Yep, I am aware that that is the reason deserters are killed and I am aware that it is nessacary. That doesn’t make it right, and that doesn’t mean one should feel nothing after killing a man simply because they believe it was the right thing to do and there was no other option. Theon believed there was no other option when he killed Mikken, but he still felt guilty about it and he realized that it wasn’t right despite it being nessacary (at least in his mind), but Ned is so convinced of his own righteousness that he doesn’t even question what he did, he feels no guilt at all, no doubt, nothing. Because why should he when he has the best and only appropriate moral code (that I don’t agree with! He could learn a thing or two from Davos for example).

“It's got nothing to do with self-righteousness, but with the recognition of pure humility that one's control extends no further than one self.” I think putting responsibility on someone else to the point where you don’t even doubt said responsibility and don’t doubt your own actions is pretty much the opposite of humility. Once again, we are not talking about someone else’ actions, we’re talking about Ned’s actions…

where in Flanders O_O ? I'm from Ghent!

[Dead_Stark]

Reek will shoot the great other in the eye with a dragonglass arrow.

[Slender Aimry Hill]

Reek will shoot the great other in the eye with a dragonglass arrow.

I sort of agree (including with the tone of rueful irony). I feel foreshadowing vaguely points a ) to Theon sort of being relevant to Daenerys b ) to him delivering the coup-de-grace to a dragon with a weirwood shaft. But I try to be very cautious with the two-edged blade of prophecy and not to build too much on premises that may themselves be shaky...

[sweetsunray]

Yep, I am aware that that is the reason deserters are killed and I am aware that it is nessacary. That doesn’t make it right, and that doesn’t mean one should feel nothing after killing a man simply because they believe it was the right thing to do and there was no other option. Theon believed there was no other option when he killed Mikken, but he still felt guilty about it and he realized that it wasn’t right despite it being nessacary (at least in his mind), but Ned is so convinced of his own righteousness that he doesn’t even question what he did, he feels no guilt at all, no doubt, nothing. Because why should he when he has the best and only appropriate moral code (that I don’t agree with! He could learn a thing or two from Davos for example).

“It's got nothing to do with self-righteousness, but with the recognition of pure humility that one's control extends no further than one self.” I think putting responsibility on someone else to the point where you don’t even doubt said responsibility and don’t doubt your own actions is pretty much the opposite of humility. Once again, we are not talking about someone else’ actions, we’re talking about Ned’s actions…

where in Flanders O_O ? I'm from Ghent!

I'm not arguing it's "right". And I don't have the impression that Ned sees it as "right" either, but as a necessity and something pragmatic. But something "not being right" does not automatically means it's "wrong". Similarly "not feeling guilty" does not mean it doesn't "pain" or "burden" Ned to do it, nor that he does not recognize he's hurting someone, let alone that he "likes" doing it. It's clear he doesn't feel guilt over it, but you can't make a definite claim about his thoughts/doubts/anguish/burden over killing someone: first of all the execution is from Bran's pov, and the weirwood scene right after is from Cat's pov. By the time we have Ned's pov months or weeks have already passed, because that's when Robert arrives. We do know from Cat that Ned visits the weirwood right after, wanting to contemplate, and ritually washes Ice. We also know that Ned finds it important for Bran to know why Ned performs the execution himself. For me, those are actions and behaviour that betray he refuses to burden someone else with the hateful act, and faces full responsibility for it. And if he wasn't troubled by the act, he wouldn't seek out the weirwood.

I may not feel guilty when I have to send a pupil out, but I greatly dislike doing it. I may not feel responsible for the actions and choices of others, but I certainly do feel responsible for my choices in response to it: that is I don't blame the pupil in the sense of "he/she made me do this." I also fully recognize that the pupil will hate it even more than I do, and will feel personally attacked/slighted/singled out. I will seek an opportunity too to contemplate over the situation in solitude, and think: how do we move on from this. And I'll seek contact with the pupil to come to some resolution, privately, including hearing their grievances.

ETA: Antwerp

[Lee-Sensei]

Theon was a villian in the book up until the point he was taken captive. WF was the house of Starks. When he took the castle, he stole from the Starks(which are the heroes of the tale) When someone actively plots against the protagonist of the story, it makes them the antagonist. This whole arguement just speaks to the brilliance of GRRM to take a villian and twist him around into someone we make excuses for and cheer on. Like Jaime and the Hound, he seems to have a specialty for it. I think what makes Theon special is the fact he hasn't fully made that transformation yet. When Jaime and Sandor have their change of heart, the difference is night and day. Theon seems stuck in twilight. He wants so much to break out and become a hero, but something keeps him wanting to be loyal to that demon, Ramsay. I feel sorry for GRRM. I imagine getting into the head of Theon must have given him many sleepless nights. Now, why I believe Theon is somehow responsible for Ramsay beating Stannis. In the sample chapter, Theon wonders why Stannis won't let him go. He saved fArya after all, he is a hero. Stannis simply tells him that many of his allies see him as a turncloak and he will see that he answers for that charge. He doesn't mention that he's a king and will be sacrificed to R'hllor for his king's blood. At this point, noone told Theon his father is dead. Stannis then brings the conversation to Ramsay and refers to him as a bastard. Theon angrily admonishes Stannis screaming that he should never call Ramsay a bastard. He will hurt you. Theon has been threatened and been left hanging for days. He has no love for this new king. Asha requests at the end that Stannis honor the ways of his allies in the north by executing Theon under a weirwood tree. The chapter ends without a comment by Stannis which we can assume is foreshadowing. I think Asha isn't just asking this to save Theon a long agonizing death. I think she has a plan to save him. Stannis may take a few men out with him to the weirwood tree, but just for witnesses. I think Asha and the ironborn will be waiting in ambush. Just before the ironborn can spring their trap, I think Ramsay and his men will show up and all hell will break loose. I think Theon will somehow disarm one of the witnesses in the confusion and plunge the weapon into Stannis. This will stun and weaken him for someone else, maybe Ramsay to deliver a finishing blow. I believe Asha and the ironborn will haul off Theon before Ramsay can get him back. They will escape while Ramsay is too tied up in the ensuing battle. Yes, the frozen lake will come into play, but it won't get Ramsay. He has to live to write the bastard letter that I think he writes there at the frozen lake and sends it using Stannis' raven(the only one likely trained to fly to the Wall). Asha's plan is likely to have Theon take the black to be admonished of his crimes. There's no way, after the debaucle at WF and the betrayal at Moat Cailin he could ever show his face in the Iron Islands again. If he survives the journey north, and doesn't try to escape his sister to keep from facing Jon Snow, he'll become NW and fight in the final battle for the dawn. Of course, Jon would have to be somewhere else for this to happen.

Yes he can? The Iron Born don't seem to care much about his failure at WF. Heck, he still has supporters on the Iron Islands. And no one cares about the Codd's that died at Moat Cailin.

[mushroomshirt]

Maybe we can learn it yeah, but that doesn’t mean you can expect everyone to be at that point already. “The key to that view is not black/white self-righteousness, but the most humble view you can have about yourself in relation to others: that you do not have any control over what someone else thinks, feels, says, does.” You indeed don’t have control over what someone else thinks, but you can be the cause of someone else pain, whether on purpose or not, so I wouldn’t say absolving yourself of any responsibility is being humble, it’s being self-righteous “I did the right thing, if they feel about it differently that’s their problem, I cannot possibly look at it from their point of view so I have no reason to feel guilty for any pain I might have caused” that is self-righteous. I agree that it’s not your responsibility if they don’t shut up, that’s not my problem, my problem lies here : “Of course the consequences ought to be in proportion with the transgression.” Because who decides what is in proportion, that’d be you, you are the one in power so you get to decide. And when you do so it is also your responsibility to question said decision, to not question it and believe your decision is the only right decision that everyone else should bow down to, is being self-righteous. “I don't feel guilty for them not being quiet after I asked them to, because I recognize I do not have control over another person's choices or behavior, none.” I’m not talking about what others did though, I’m talking about what you did, the punishment you gave them for not doing what they were supposed to. a punishment you consider right, but maybe they don’t, maybe an outsider doesn’t (then again maybe they do, but my point is that it’s not a black and white decision, to see it as such is being self-righteous).

“If Ned has no control whatsoever over someone deserting the NW, then why should he feel guilty over it? He shouldn't.” who’s talking about Ned feeling guilty because someone deserted the NW, I was talking about what HE did: the act of killing said men for it (without any trial whatsoever btw). That is something he did, you cannot say the deserter did that to himself! Ned executed that men and did not feel any responsibility over it, probably because he is the kind of black and white thinker who just thinks “well, he shouldn’t have deserted…” because obviously, life is that simple, right? That guy definitely deserted for no good reason, knowing it would mean his death! No questions asked, that’s the reason… he is like Javert in that way! when someone breaks the law they are emmediatly evil… (and I distinctly remember Javert being a villain, maybe my favourite villain of all time actually…)

Yep, I am aware that that is the reason deserters are killed and I am aware that it is nessacary. That doesn’t make it right, and that doesn’t mean one should feel nothing after killing a man simply because they believe it was the right thing to do and there was no other option. Theon believed there was no other option when he killed Mikken, but he still felt guilty about it and he realized that it wasn’t right despite it being nessacary (at least in his mind), but Ned is so convinced of his own righteousness that he doesn’t even question what he did, he feels no guilt at all, no doubt, nothing. Because why should he when he has the best and only appropriate moral code (that I don’t agree with! He could learn a thing or two from Davos for example).

“It's got nothing to do with self-righteousness, but with the recognition of pure humility that one's control extends no further than one self.” I think putting responsibility on someone else to the point where you don’t even doubt said responsibility and don’t doubt your own actions is pretty much the opposite of humility. Once again, we are not talking about someone else’ actions, we’re talking about Ned’s actions…

where in Flanders O_O ? I'm from Ghent!

Excellent post. I would only add that while maybe Ned did not feel guilt he certainly did feel that taking Gared's life was a heavy responsibility. He did go to the godswood afterwards for a long time and he had the whole speech to Bran about why he who passes the sentence should swing the sword. Those aren't the thoughts and actions of a person who takes a life lightly.

I don't think this takes away from your point about Theon, though. He is a great character in part because the choices he makes are so understandable. And while he does lots of bad stuff, the reader really understands why he does it and what is motivating him.

[The Imperator]

Yes he can? The Iron Born don't seem to care much about his failure at WF. Heck, he still has supporters on the Iron Islands. And no one cares about the Codd's that died at Moat Cailin.

Everything Theon Greyjoy has been through could be used as an argument for him as a King. After all, the phrase "What is dead may never die" could easily be taken to mean "What doesn't kill you makes you stronger." The Ironborn might very well find respect in Theon surviving everything he's been through.

[INCBlackbird]

I'm not arguing it's "right". And I don't have the impression that Ned sees it as "right" either, but as a necessity and something pragmatic. But something "not being right" does not automatically means it's "wrong". Similarly "not feeling guilty" does not mean it doesn't "pain" or "burden" Ned to do it, nor that he does not recognize he's hurting someone, let alone that he "likes" doing it. It's clear he doesn't feel guilt over it, but you can't make a definite claim about his thoughts/doubts/anguish/burden over killing someone: first of all the execution is from Bran's pov, and the weirwood scene right after is from Cat's pov. By the time we have Ned's pov months or weeks have already passed, because that's when Robert arrives. We do know from Cat that Ned visits the weirwood right after, wanting to contemplate, and ritually washes Ice. We also know that Ned finds it important for Bran to know why Ned performs the execution himself. For me, those are actions and behaviour that betray he refuses to burden someone else with the hateful act, and faces full responsibility for it. And if he wasn't troubled by the act, he wouldn't seek out the weirwood.

I may not feel guilty when I have to send a pupil out, but I greatly dislike doing it. I may not feel responsible for the actions and choices of others, but I certainly do feel responsible for my choices in response to it: that is I don't blame the pupil in the sense of "he/she made me do this." I also fully recognize that the pupil will hate it even more than I do, and will feel personally attacked/slighted/singled out. I will seek an opportunity too to contemplate over the situation in solitude, and think: how do we move on from this. And I'll seek contact with the pupil to come to some resolution, privately, including hearing their grievances.

ETA: Antwerp

I didn't say Ned likes it. I don't think he does, and yes, it probably hurts him, I don't think he's the kind of man who enjoys being the leader, he sees it as his duty. but then again, I don't think he felt guilty, why? because he is always self rightious and judgemental. take the jaime thing for example... Jaime did the right thing but Ned judged him anyway because he broke his oath. he saw that oath breaking as more important then the lives of thousends of people. this is why I say he's like javert. he does not think for himself about what is right and wrong he just assumes that the law is always right, and when someone breaks it, for whatever reason they are a bad person... but... unlike Javert that law is not the law someone else made, it's his law, he made a code that he follows, quite stricktly, but he expects everyone to do so as well.

[INCBlackbird]

Excellent post. I would only add that while maybe Ned did not feel guilt he certainly did feel that taking Gared's life was a heavy responsibility. He did go to the godswood afterwards for a long time and he had the whole speech to Bran about why he who passes the sentence should swing the sword. Those aren't the thoughts and actions of a person who takes a life lightly.

I don't think this takes away from your point about Theon, though. He is a great character in part because the choices he makes are so understandable. And while he does lots of bad stuff, the reader really understands why he does it and what is motivating him.

thanks! and I dont think Ned took it lightly at all, he takes it very serious and I do like his rule about "he who passes the sentence should swing the sword". my problem is more that he believes this is the only right way and he judges everyone who does not follow the same code he does. also he looks at situations very black and white, while a lot of situations are way more complicated then that! but to ned it's simple "this man broke his oath, he deserves to die" but sometimes that man had no choice, or he, like Jaime, had to chose between breaking his oath and protecting a mad man. so yeah, that's my main problem with Ned, his judgementalness and black and whiteness, and self rightiousness.

[Damp Hair - The Prophet]

Theon will survive &/or escape the battle of ice and go back to the iron islands with his sister and her men.

[rebel to conform]

This may be a stupid idea, but what if Theon is at some point thrown off of a ship at sea, drowns, but climbs out of the water sometime later? Maybe he's even not a eunuch anymore?

[mushroomshirt]

Maybe he's even not a eunuch anymore?

I don't mean to derail this thread... and I feel kind of slimy/geeky/pedantic posting it, but I don't think Theon is a Eunuch.

Theon says something like Ramsay took a few fingers and "that other thing" (not necessarily an exact quote but I distinctly remember this).

So I think Ramsay cut off Theon's penis but left his testicles. Otherwise he would have thought "those other things".

I don't know if this has any relevance to the story or not (probably not).