Behind blue eyes

[Jon's Queen Consort]

we know nothing about how the Old Gods work, we know alot more about R'hollor followers and their obsession with red. There are signs when someone is a "fire" worshipper. Why not similar for "Ice"?

My opinion would be because the Old Gods had fought the Others before so it's not the same. Simple as that.

Val says to Jon "...I know the forest better than any of your black cloaked Rangers. It hold no ghost for me."

Why?

She has no fear whatsoever of traveling North of the wall. No fear or regard or mention of the Others at all.

I don't know let me see... Maybe because unlike the NW's men she has been born, raised and lived her whole life Beyond the Wall? I don't know it's just a wild guess.

You might find this this interesting.

[Snow Dottir]

My opinion would be because the Old Gods had fought the Others before so it's not the same. Simple as that.

I don't know let me see... Maybe because unlike the NW's men she has been born, raised and lived her whole life Beyond the Wall? I don't know it's just a wild guess.

You might find this this interesting.

I knew it couldn't be possible these things haven't been discussed before. thanks for linking me...some very good stuff there.

Everyone else wants to be south of the wall. Even freefolk.

The histories are vaugue and if it's that simple then who are the white walkers?

If their not of the Old Gods then who are they?

They can't be of the Old Gods if, as you say, "The Old Gods fought the others"

[Ser Creighton]

Something is clearly going on with Val it was not just her eye color that changed but her clothes. The moment with Ghost parallels the moment Mel had with him. Did Martin accidentally change Vals eye color and leave Jon between a pair of Red and Blue eyed women? Really, it's ice and fire for crying out loud. The guy also placed blue stars on the field. Of course something is going on with Jon and the blue his cold is brought up again, which has been a theme with Jon going back to Bran' vision. The Night's queen looks to be in play. The blue eyes are an accident, she starts out in Brown bear skins and returns in all white with a weirwood pin. Martin takes the seen of Val's return and subverts a wedding out of it. You got two gold bands being given to Jon, gifts being given which are not gifts, Val in all white, the Wall is shining blue, Ghost is standing Next to Val basically giving her away, the Member that walks is playing best man. It's a subverted symbolic wedding and it's done to continue the inverse symbolic parallel between Jon and Dany. Jon's second marriage, his first was his spearwife Yiggy. Dany two literal marriages Jon 2 symbolic marriages.

When Dany woke from her fever dream when Drogo was brought back but still dead, she asked for a drink, she got tepid water. She marries the tool of Tepid kisses, both would do but were not what she wanted. She wanted cold water as cold as it gets, this theme continues throughout her story. How much you want to bet on Jon's revival he desires warmth and the cold will not bother him much.

Always comes back to sun and moon with Jon and Dany. Fire and Ice are always opposites in the story, Ice can preserve the dead, fire can sustain life, but neither are in fact life. Together they are life. It's typical cyclical symbolism. It's not the only story that exists in the books but it's part of their story. If Dany is fire Jon must be??? The wall is ice, blue winter rose, the Kings of Winter, the Others, the North. Jon just happens to be in the North west Dany in the south east. Dany in the land of summer Jon in winter, there symbolism always comes back to ice and fire and Ice and fire always make water. Water like the Womb of the world. Just a little bit of symbolism there. There story seems to revolve around the magic of the world, while their political story has really not been that active. The Lannisters, Tyrells and such have been the main politically active stories. Not to say Dany and Jon don't have political stories but they have not been all that active to date. Dany freeing slaves, Jon subjugates the free folk. The symbolism is always inverse. The double assassination attempt, Jon locks Ghost away to keep him from the boar, Drogon shows up and kills a boar. Someone tries to kill Dany with poison but she escapes from the flame engulfed pit. Jon is stabbed, in a snow storm, Wun Wun is slashed across the stomach and Belwas is poisoned grabbing his stomach. Jon has external wounds and Dany internal, both are bleeding.

Sun and moon always works with those two.

[IceFire125]

Something is clearly going on with Val it was not just her eye color that changed but her clothes. The moment with Ghost parallels the moment Mel had with him. Did Martin accidentally change Vals eye color and leave Jon between a pair of Red and Blue eyed women? Really, it's ice and fire for crying out loud. The guy also placed blue stars on the field. Of course something is going on with Jon and the blue his cold is brought up again, which has been a theme with Jon going back to Bran' vision. The Night's queen looks to be in play. The blue eyes are an accident, she starts out in Brown bear skins and returns in all white with a weirwood pin. Martin takes the seen of Val's return and subverts a wedding out of it. You got two gold bands being given to Jon, gifts being given which are not gifts, Val in all white, the Wall is shining blue, Ghost is standing Next to Val basically giving her away, the Member that walks is playing best man. It's a subverted symbolic wedding and it's done to continue the inverse symbolic parallel between Jon and Dany. Jon's second marriage, his first was his spearwife Yiggy. Dany two literal marriages Jon 2 symbolic marriages.

When Dany woke from her fever dream when Drogo was brought back but still dead, she asked for a drink, she got tepid water. She marries the tool of Tepid kisses, both would do but were not what she wanted. She wanted cold water as cold as it gets, this theme continues throughout her story. How much you want to bet on Jon's revival he desires warmth and the cold will not bother him much.

Always comes back to sun and moon with Jon and Dany. Fire and Ice are always opposites in the story, Ice can preserve the dead, fire can sustain life, but neither are in fact life. Together they are life. It's typical cyclical symbolism. It's not the only story that exists in the books but it's part of their story. If Dany is fire Jon must be??? The wall is ice, blue winter rose, the Kings of Winter, the Others, the North. Jon just happens to be in the North west Dany in the south east. Dany in the land of summer Jon in winter, there symbolism always comes back to ice and fire and Ice and fire always make water. Water like the Womb of the world. Just a little bit of symbolism there. There story seems to revolve around the magic of the world, while their political story has really not been that active. The Lannisters, Tyrells and such have been the main politically active stories. Not to say Dany and Jon don't have political stories but they have not been all that active to date. Dany freeing slaves, Jon subjugates the free folk. The symbolism is always inverse. The double assassination attempt, Jon locks Ghost away to keep him from the boar, Drogon shows up and kills a boar. Someone tries to kill Dany with poison but she escapes from the flame engulfed pit. Jon is stabbed, in a snow storm, Wun Wun is slashed across the stomach and Belwas is poisoned grabbing his stomach. Jon has external wounds and Dany internal, both are bleeding.

Sun and moon always works with those two.

And there will be another kissing of the moon and the sun. :)

[Collis]

And there will be another kissing of the moon and the sun. :)

Better not be. Don't need another incest couple here. Dany can keep 50 Shades of Daario. Jon needs to stay true to his vows--> that was we can keep them as opposites.

[PirateVergo]

The next Night's Queen (being descended from the first) who will attempt to seduce Jon into being Night's King 2.0 and fail.

Val isn't even trying to seduce Jon and nothing suggest that she will attempt to do it.

[IceFire125]

Better not be. Don't need another incest couple here. Dany can keep 50 Shades of Daario. Jon needs to stay true to his vows--> that was we can keep them as opposites.

:laugh:

By end of TWOW or early ADOS, GRRM will want his incest fix, the Jaime+Cersei is getting stale. lol, I don't know, the sun kissing the moon again, could mean something like kissing on the cheek. Someone needs to be the moon for Jon to kiss. :P

[Snow Dottir]

Something is clearly going on with Val it was not just her eye color that changed but her clothes.

Is that you George????

Seriously, your post are always so good.

We won't have to wait long until some of these things are revealed, in the meantime I certainly don't want what I'm saying to be dismissed as "Val is a secret other"

It's so much more than that. There is definitely somthing going on with Val. There is somthing going on at the wall right now, right in front of everyone but yet completely hidden in regards to the Old Gods ( imho)

somthing got me when I went back and noticed the heavy detail describing Val leaving the wall and her return.

I checked just to see if she was in completely white garb, which she was...complete with infamous pin.

you also said::::

When Dany woke from her fever dream when Drogo was brought back but still dead, she asked for a drink, she got tepid water. She marries the tool of Tepid kisses, both would do but were not what she wanted. She wanted cold water as cold as it gets, this theme continues throughout her story. How much you want to bet on Jon's revival he desires warmth and the cold will not bother him much.

blatant crackpot theory....

Maybe he'll be frozen :stunned:

Now wait.

If he Wargs into Ghost and his body freezes, Ice preserves death

maybe????? (no han solo japes please)

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Everyone else wants to be south of the wall. Even freefolk.

Sure and what? Val had a mission to do she wasn't going back Beyond the Wall to live there.

The histories are vaugue and if it's that simple then who are the white walkers?

Huh? Can you explain that?

If their not of the Old Gods then who are they?

They can't be of the Old Gods if, as you say, "The Old Gods fought the others"

Yes they are not the Old Gods, I think that this is pretty obvious. It's not like that the only explanation for them is to be the Old Gods, don't forget that the Children of the Forest and the OG fought the Others. I can't understand why you think how you believe that they are the OG.

[Snow Dottir]

Yes they are not the Old Gods, I think that this is pretty obvious. It's not like that the only explanation for them is to be the Old Gods, don't forget that the Children of the Forest and the OG fought the Others. I can't understand why you think how you believe that they are the OG.

Where did I say they were the Old God's?

This is the 2nd time you completely cheapened and distorted what I specifically said. (val being a sexy other, which I never said but I'm sure gets better laughs as a crackpot theory than "Val is a very religious northerner." , I get it.)

I said they were OF the old gods.

Show me where I said that the others are the Old Gods?

Huh??? what?

The history of the children and the others is a very rudimentary telling.... as most ancient histories are! That's what I mean, pretty much exactly what I said without writing a book that's already been written.

Also I'm only pointing out that perhaps Val doesn't fear the others because she respects and understands them more, they are a part of her religion.

Where did the others come from then if not in some way related to the Old Gods?

You say, because the old gods "fought" them.. it's simple. They absolutely cannot be part of the OG.

O.k. then who are they were do they come from???

According to you it can't be that they are aligned with the Old Gods so who/what??

You said it's simple so you must know.

You're 12,000 post deep and you seem to find this incredibly snarkworthy, of course I notice.

Regardless, I'm either WAY off or not, can't be both.

[Collis]

Where did I say they were the Old God's?

This is the 2nd time you completely cheapened and distorted what I specifically said. (val being a sexy other, which I never said but I'm sure gets better laughs as a crackpot theory than "Val is a very religious northerner." , I get t.)

I said they were OF the old gods.

Show me where I said that the others are the Old Gods?

Huh??? what?

The history of the children and the others is a very rudimentary telling.... as most ancient histories are! That's what I mean, pretty much exactly what I said without writing a book that's already been written.

Also I'm only pointing out that perhaps Val doesn't fear the others because she respects and understands them more, they are a part of her religion.

Where did the others come from then if not in some way related to the Old Gods?

You say, because the old gods "fought" them.. it's simple. They absolutely cannot be part of the OG.

O.k. then who are they were do they come from???

According to you it can't be that they are aligned with the Old Gods so who/what??

You said it's simple so you must know.

You're 12,000 post deep and you seem to find this incredibly snarkworthy, of course I notice.

Regardless, I'm either WAY off or not, can't be both.

:cheers: You seem to be doing well defending yourself. If you need help, just let me know.

The Old Gods aren't really defined, more the seers and accumulated knowledge of the trees. I don't see why the Others cannot be affiliated with the CotF and Old Gods. It seems to me their magics are too closely linked; Mellisandre misinterpreting Bran to be the Great Other is an example of the possibility. They may not be on the same side, but on the spectrum of R'hallor to the Great Other, I have the strange hunch the CoTF and the Old gods are only a smidgen away from the Others.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Where did I say they were the Old God's?

This is the 2nd time you completely cheapened and distorted what I specifically said. (val being a sexy other, which I never said but I'm sure gets better laughs as a crackpot theory than "Val is a very religious northerner." , I get t.)

I said they were OF the old gods.

Where did the others come from then if not in some way related to the Old Gods?

Do you have any proof which lead us to believe that the Others are of the Old Gods?

The history of the children and the others is a very rudimentary telling.... as most ancient histories are! That's what I mean, pretty much exactly what I said without writing a book that's already been written.

Wut? What I am saying is that we know that the COFTs fight the Others. We know that and we have seen that. The same COFTs that they are the one who start worshiping the OG and the same cofts that live with an OG.

Also I'm only pointing out that perhaps Val doesn't fear the others because she respects and understands them more, they are a part of her religion.

Terrible baseless strawman. She never said that she is not afraid of them she said that the forest holds no ghosts for her which means that she knows what lives in the forest.

O.k. then who are they were do they come from???

According to you it can't be that they are aligned with the Old Gods so who/what??

Again I cannot understand why when we already know that the COFTS and the OG had fought the Others you came to the result that the Others have anything to do with the OG. The only thing I can think of is because they are at the North. But this means that you had forgotten what we know and what we have seen this far. Also the last time I checked the thread was about Val and not about the origin of the Others.

You're 12,000 post deep and you seem to find this incredibly snarkworthy, of course I notice.

:bang: :bang: :bang: Very mature congratulations!

[Snow Dottir]

:cheers: You seem to be doing well defending yourself. If you need help, just let me know.

The Old Gods aren't really defined, more the seers and accumulated knowledge of the trees. I don't see why the Others cannot be affiliated with the CotF and Old Gods. It seems to me their magics are too closely linked; Mellisandre misinterpreting Bran to be the Great Other is an example of the possibility. They may not be on the same side, but on the spectrum of R'hallor to the Great Other, I have the strange hunch the CoTF and the Old gods are only a smidgen away from the Others.

Awww thanks.

You never know I may need you :)

That's what I mean about the history, it's vague in it's telling of what actually happened. I don't think it's a huge leap to link the others with Northern magic at all. I wholeheartedly have the same "hunch" about Cotf, Old Gods and others that you do.

I haven't even begun!!

We still have Mother mole and Hardhome to think about :)

[Collis]

Not sure if you're trolling Consort but here we go....

Also the last time I checked the thread was about Val and not about the origin of the Others.

Off the bat he was initially saying that she didn't fear the forest because Val understood the Northern religions and the possible Other influence on them. This is directly related to Val and you are nitpicking something in order to make the argument seem relavent. If we are talking about a characteristic of the character or something they have knowledge of, obviously it is relevant to them.

Do you have any proof which lead us to believe that the Others are of the Old Gods?

And you have proof that they are not? We don't have proof of much. You are arguing with no information, no facts, no insight. It is silly, childish, and simply ruling something out because you dont 'think' it is possible is what allows people to maintain false ideas (not that we know of it being either way). The mark of an educated mind is being able to entertain a concept without embracing it. I do value your zealousness though.

Again I cannot understand why when we already know that the COFTS and the OG had fought the Others you came to the result that the Others have anything to do with the OG.

This just makes me facepalm. You are assuming that two people who draw power from the same source or are related will not fight each other? Really? Stop and think for a moment. Two evil people are perfectly capable of fighting each other just as two truly just people. This is not a binary situation here, as GRRM maintains will nearly all his characters. As I suggested earlier on the spectrum they may be much closer to another. You should not just rule it out because it isn't an idea you like. Again, it may not be right, but we can't prove it wrong.

The main point is, don't rule out the idea because you don't 'like' it. It may not be wrong. There isn't conclusive PROOF for most ideas in these threads, it doesn't make them less possible of being true. All the story is written from characters POVs and that means we don't have omnipotent viewpoints not poisoned/tainted/affected by the character's understanding. One must be aware of this. If you are going to refute, please present conflicting information rather than just being argumentative for argument's sake (that said, I do love a good argument :-)).

Awww thanks.

We'll see where this goes. Lol.

[Snow Dottir]

:bang: :bang: :bang: Very mature congratulations!

Thanks!

I'm just glad making fun of people for grammar is no longer equally as snarkworthy, you'd have a BLAST with me. :)

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Not sure if you're trolling Consort but here we go....

Off the bat he was initially saying that she didn't fear the forest because Val understood the Northern religions and the possible Other influence on them. This is directly related to Val and you are nitpicking something in order to make the argument seem relavent. If we are talking about a characteristic of the character or something they have knowledge of, obviously it is relevant to them.

The character said that the forest holds no ghosts for her she never said that she isn't afraid of what is in the forests. There is a difference there. You can call it nipticking but the details are important.

And you have proof that they are not? We don't have proof of much. You are arguing with no information, no facts, no insight. It is silly, childish, and simply ruling something out because you dont 'think' it is possible is what allows people to maintain false ideas (not that we know of it being either way). The mark of an educated mind is being able to entertain a concept without embracing it. I do value your zealousness though.

Since we have seen that the COFTs, who once more live with an OG, are against the Others is pretty logical. Now the one who claimed that they have any connection is the one who bears the burden of proving himself.

This just makes me facepalm. You are assuming that two people who draw power from the same source or are related will not fight each other? Really? Stop and think for a moment. Two evil people are perfectly capable of fighting each other just as two truly just people. This is not a binary situation here, as GRRM maintains will nearly all his characters. As I suggested earlier on the spectrum they may be much closer to another. You should not just rule it out because it isn't an idea you like. Again, it may not be right, but we can't prove it wrong.

Again, all I am asking is proofs.

What you say makes no sence at all. By your logic; Are the dragons R'hllorists? Because sinse they have fire they should be. Your assumption that the OG have anything to do with the Others is based on what? The fact that they are at the North?

The main point is, don't rule out the idea because you don't 'like' it. It may not be wrong. There isn't conclusive PROOF for most ideas in these threads, it doesn't make them less possible of being true. All the story is written from characters POVs and that means we don't have omnipotent viewpoints not poisoned/tainted/affected by the character's understanding. One must be aware of this. If you are going to refute, please present conflicting information rather than just being argumentative for argument's sake (that said, I do love a good argument :-)).

Yet again, what I am asking of are the proofs. I clearly said that we know that the OG and the COTFs have fought the Others. We know that much. Now saying that the Others have any relationship with the OG saying only that "is an opinion" without providing any actual proof isn't something which someone could take and act seriously.

Thanks!

I'm just glad making fun of people for grammar is no longer equally as snarkworthy, you'd have a BLAST with me. :)

? Whatever...

[Collis]

Decidedly trolling. At least we know.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

NVM it doesn't deserve it.

[Snow Dottir]

Good! Now have you anything else to say or you are limited to insulting?

? Wait and hope...

[Snow Dottir]

Yet again, what I am asking of are the proofs. I clearly said that we know that the OG and the COTFs have fought the Others. We know that much. Now saying that the Others have any relationship with the OG saying only that "is an opinion" without providing any actual proof isn't something which someone could take and act seriously.

? Whatever...

Since we're being led to believe this is really a Dualism "Fire/Ice" we have limited options, right?

People may like to think Melissanre and followers of R'hollor are the only religious people at the wall... but that isn't likely.

The Old Gods can't be reduced to merely "praying to trees".

No one is being insulting.

If you think this idea is "a stupid...meh....huh...whatever" that's absolutely fine this is an enormous forum.

Isn't that what a theory is? It wouldn't be a theory if we had all the facts, then it would be canon.

You come off as if you have it all worked out but you haven't answered my first question.

If the Others are not OF the OG. then who or what are they?

You must have your own theory.....???? (please don't say it's off topic)

In fact, you seem to have very strong opinions about what's going on at the wall in general (just guessing? I don't know maybe because of your screen name?) so far you haven't offered any theory of your own at all.

If you're not willing to theorize about things not yet made into canon then you can't really "meh,, hmmmph , whateva" someone elses.

Well you can obviously, you have, now lets hear what your theory is?