The Age of Heroes is

[Mal Malenkirk]

The estimates that place the age of heroes about 10 000 years ago are likely a gross overestimation by the maesters (according to the wiki they debate among themselves).

To use a simple point of comparison; the Great Pyramids of Egypt are about 4500 years old. So am I to believe that Storm's end is 10 000 year old? It's fantasy, but unless every single rock is magic...

Before the Andals, writing and chronicling were not reliable, but it seems it did not instantly improve with the Andals; according to the wiki some maester dispute that the Andals came 6000 years ago and some maester argue it might have been as recent as 2000 years ago. For all we know it's a bit more recent than that.

For all we know, the Age of Heroes might have lasted no more than 500 years preceding the Andals Arrival less than 2000 years ago.

It makes a hell of a lot more sense, especially when considering how many first men building are left and the technological advance made in the intervals.

EDIT: Eh, never finished the title and can't edit it...

[Fat Mac]

I generally agree. I think the dates of most events are ballooned to ridiculous lengths. I think its very possible the Andal invasion (which was probably more of a slow migration, anyway) was likely 2-3000 years ago instead of 6000.

[Ser Greg of House House]

Martin is known to exaggerate some stuff to absurd ammounts. Like the Wall's height. I suppose you're right when you compare to real world history, but well, there's magic and everything's more spectacular in fantasy.

I guess Martin made the maesters guess it a lot higher, so he has room to create whatever he sees fit in the future.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Spot on. GRRM continually lampshades the poor quality of Westerosi history and how 99.9999% of it's population does not care one whiff. Same with technological advancements.

[Mal Malenkirk]

Leap: Meh. It's fantasy. Even if you say you accept that, by going on to compare it to real life anyway you show that you haven't really.

Fantasy does not have to abide by any measure of realism.

1 - Fantasy still has to make sense. It has to feel real. I heard the term verisimilitude used to describe it.

2 - I'm pointing that the maester themselve argue amongst themselve about these things. I'm not saying it's George making no sense, it's the Westerosi scholars. If a reader swallow all of the nonsensical notions peddled about the far history of Westeros, he's being as credulous as the peasants.

Records older than five or six centuries seem very spotty in Westeros.

[Blue_Bard]

Based on my readings of the novels, I wouldn't date anything older than 900 years with much accuracy. I.E. the Manderlys coming north is a historical event, the Valyrian defeat of the Rhoynar and Nymeria's coming to Westeros is probably a mythological event, the Andal arrival in Westeros is 100% mythological, and anything before that, who knows?

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Here's an example of why the timeline, as written by maesters/septons is wrong:

Brandon the Builder lived during the Age of Heroes. ca 10,000 B.A.L.

House Stark was founded ca 8,000 B.A.L.

House Stark was founded by Brandon the Builder. Apparently he lived for 2,000+ years.

[Hodor's Dragon]

Martin repeatedly emphasizes the inaccuracy of the reportage of events by people who weren't there to witness them. Just look at all the stories in King's Landing of how Robert died, for example. Or what people say about how Renly died. What people say about Robb. On and on.

[Zoravar Singh]

I guess it began after the long night, which would be 8000 years ago if I recall correctly.

To use a simple point of comparison; the Great Pyramids of Egypt are about 4500 years old. So am I to believe that Storm's end is 10 000 year old? It's fantasy, but unless every single rock is magic...

Actually, building storm's end involved magic, and that magic still exists in its bricks.

There are a few good ways to estimate this: there are 998 LC of the Nightswatch, but only 667 are recorded. That means it has been 667 NC commanders since the andals came ( since they brought writing with them, but add 40 to that figure as the Watch would not have started writing names the day the Andals came). Either way, its just a guess.

The NW was formed 8000 years ago

We devide that by 998( rounded to 1000), which means that the average commander has a tenure of 8 years>
Now,667+40 recorded commanders= approximately 700

700x8=5600 years ago, approximately when the andals came.

[Agamemnon]

Here's an example of why the timeline, as written by maesters/septons is wrong:

Brandon the Builder lived during the Age of Heroes. ca 10,000 B.A.L.

House Stark was founded ca 8,000 B.A.L.

House Stark was founded by Brandon the Builder. Apparently he lived for 2,000+ years.

Age of heroes was from 10k-8k, It ended with the Long Night and the defeat of the others. BTB was alive during the LN and probably before it started, which was the end of the age of heroes. He built both Winterfell and the Wall probably at the same time. He didnt have to live for 2000 years to make that story work.

Now that being said, Storm's End might very well have magic in the stones, we know the stones are shaped and placed with such precision it implies magical building. It could very well be as old as they say. Moat Cailin is older still but it wasnt build with magic, or the magic has deserted it after the Children fled.

Dont forget the Wall is at least a couple thousand years old you all have to agree. It couldnt stand without magic for even a week, so if its 2000 years, why cant it be 8000? We are relying on magic as the very principle for these structures.

[Mal Malenkirk]

There are a few good ways to estimate this: there are 998 LC of the Nightswatch, but only 667 are recorded. That means it has been 667 NC commanders since the andals came ( since they brought writing with them, but add 40 to that figure as the Watch would not have started writing names the day the Andals came). Either way, its just a guess.

The NW was formed 8000 years ago

We devide that by 998( rounded to 1000), which means that the average commander has a tenure of 8 years>

Now,667+40 recorded commanders= approximately 700

They say they the Night Watch was founded 8000 years ago. How do we know? What makes this number reliable in the first place? You can't use a made up number to conduct any kind of meaningful calculations.

I personnally have little trust in any historical information older than a few centuries before Aegon's landing. Prior to that, history as taught in the seven kingdoms is about as reliable as the 'historical' information that you find in the bible.

[Mal Malenkirk]

Now that being said, Storm's End might very well have magic in the stones, we know the stones are shaped and placed with such precision it implies magical building

Out of curiosity, do you believe incans monumental buildings were built by extraterrestrials? Because Ancient Aliens theorist routinely claimed that the precision displayed in the building of these buildings required Advanced technology. Even though archeologist found onsite rocks half shaped and discarded (probably judged unfit) along with the primitive tools used to shape them. It didn't take technology nor magic, just a lot of time and talent.

Claiming 'Aliens' or 'Magic' comes back to the same thing; 'dude, I can't believe they build that!'. Well, they did.

Harrenhall did not take magic and it's an even more impressive castle so I don't see why Storm's end needed it.

The Wall is so far unique as the only structure that clearly required magic*. Everything else is well within the realm of talented engineers.

*I can't help but Wonder how the Others could have been so much trouble if the ancients were able of such feats? And if they were able of such feats, why aren't there more example of even vaguely comparable scope elsewhere? It absolutely unique. We're told that similar magic created the crag and broke some landbrige but seriously, that likely just a myth like the flood in our world. Subject for another thread, though.

[The Fallen]

I've said it before. I like the exaggerated timelines. I like families ruling for thousands of years. It's fantasy. Other fantasy series have characters that live for hundreds of years.

There's Archaeology Today and National Geographic if I want to read about actual ruins and old structures.

This is similar to the fighting threads. Posters want to talk about realistic fighting when we've had fights in the books that have gone an hour.

GRRM has mentioned that figures like Bran the Builder may be a legend and not an actual person. I would prefer that he is in fact an actual person in the books.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Age of heroes was from 10k-8k, It ended with the Long Night and the defeat of the others. BTB was alive during the LN and probably before it started, which was the end of the age of heroes. He built both Winterfell and the Wall probably at the same time. He didnt have to live for 2000 years to make that story work.

Now that being said, Storm's End might very well have magic in the stones, we know the stones are shaped and placed with such precision it implies magical building. It could very well be as old as they say. Moat Cailin is older still but it wasnt build with magic, or the magic has deserted it after the Children fled.

Dont forget the Wall is at least a couple thousand years old you all have to agree. It couldnt stand without magic for even a week, so if its 2000 years, why cant it be 8000? We are relying on magic as the very principle for these structures.

Do you have a source for that? Because I haven't seen a single timeline that indicates how long the Age of Heroes lasted.

[Agamemnon]

Out of curiosity, do you believe incans monumental buildings were built by extraterrestrials? Because Ancient Aliens theorist routinely claimed that the precision displayed in the building of these buildings required Advanced technology. Even though archeologist found onsite rocks half shaped and discarded (probably judged unfit) along with the primitive tools used to shape them. It didn't take technology nor magic, just a lot of time and talent.

Claiming 'Aliens' or 'Magic' comes back to the same thing; 'dude, I can't believe they build that!'. Well, they did.

Harrenhall did not take magic and it's an even more impressive castle so I don't see why Storm's end needed it.

The Wall is so far unique as the only structure that clearly required magic*. Everything else is well within the realm of talented engineers.

*I can't help but Wonder how the Others could have been so much trouble if the ancients were able of such feats? And if they were able of such feats, why aren't there more example of even vaguely comparable scope elsewhere? It absolutely unique. We're told that similar magic created the crag and broke some landbrige but seriously, that likely just a myth like the flood in our world. Subject for another thread, though.

Storm's End has an outer wall that is so smooth "Wind can find no purchase" it's impossible to do that without making the entire thing out of a polished WHOLE piece of granite, because any rocks pieced together will, by their nature, be imperfect if only on a microscopic scale. Now the ancient Incans and other societies had some very nice monuments ill give them that, but nothing like how SE's outer wall is said to be, not to mention we are TOLD spells are woven in the walls.

Do you have a source for that? Because I haven't seen a single timeline that indicates how long the Age of Heroes lasted.

“But some twelve thousand years ago, the First Men appeared from the east, crossing the Broken Arm of Dorne before it was broken. They came with bronze swords and great leathern shields, riding horses. No horse had ever been seen on this side of the narrow sea. No doubt the children were as frightened by the horses as the First Men were by the faces in the trees. As the First Men carved out holdfasts and farms, they cut down the faces and gave them to the fire. Horror-struck, the children went to war. The old songs say that the greenseers used dark magics to make the seas rise and sweep away the land, shattering the Arm, but it was too late to close the door. The wars went on until the earth ran red with blood of men and children both, but more children than men, for men were bigger and stronger, and wood and stone and obsidian make a poor match for bronze. Finally the wise of both races prevailed, and the chiefs and heroes of the First Men met the greenseers and wood dancers amidst the weirwood groves of a small island in the great lake called Gods Eye.

“There they forged the Pact. The First Men were given the coastlands, the high plains and bright meadows, the mountains and bogs, but the deep woods were to remain forever the children’s, and no more weirwoods were to be put to the axe anywhere in the realm. So the gods might bear witness to the signing, every tree on the island was given a face, and afterward, the sacred order of green men was formed to keep watch over the Isle of Faces.

“The Pact began four thousand years of friendship between men and children. In time, the First Men even put aside the gods they had brought with them, and took up the worship of the secret gods of the wood. The signing of the Pact ended the Dawn Age, and began the Age of Heroes.”

Martin, George R.R. (2003-01-01). A Game of Thrones: A Song of Ice and Fire: Book One (p. 617). Bantam. Kindle Edition.

The pact was signed in 10k before AL and lasted until about 6k BAL with the invasion of the Andals. The Age of Heroes only lasted from the signing until the Long night.

Now this is all going off Lewin's statements and http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Timeline_of_major_events#The_Age_of_Heroes

All of which we are told by Sam to question, but I believe it for the most part.