Why do people think Jon is Azor Ahai?

[LordStoneheart]

Dany is the biggest cliche in ASOIAF and that's not even close.

Not to mention that 95% of Dany's fans like her because she is a woman, if Dany was a boy they would probably whine about boring and cliche she is.

I mean seriously, what did Jon do to be considered as gary-sue or cliche hero? The most impressive feat he has is defending the wall and that's it, how can you even compare this with Dany the breaker of chains, mother of dragons, queen of meereen, with an army and Barristan Selmy on her side.

If one of them is cliche and a sue it's Dany not Jon.

Which fanfiction do you read? Because IIRC Dany is as competent as Hot Pie with a sword.

All she could do is "Dracarys" and that's it.

Dany is neither a good military commander nor a fighter.

You have a problem with women, sir. You also have a problem with strawmen and taking things out of context. If you would care to ever read responses instead of attacking thin air, you'd see that I said:

If she is going to be a big help in defeating the Others, she can't be a perfect moral hero. She's going to be as divisive in the fandom as ever, even if she defeats the Others all by herself.

Is the big enough for you to read? It was a hyperbole. I was saying that she cannot be a traditional hero even if she's written in a bizarre way. It is not my fault if you are cherry picking lines to suit your rants.

[JonSnow4President]

Just to make this easier:

“In ancient books of Asshai it is written that there will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world.In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him.”

Mel told this during the burning of Seven. Stannis drew from the fire a burning burned sword. So, the words of Mel literally mean that Stannis is AA come again. How convenient.

“He is the Lord’s chosen, the warrior of fire. I have seen him leading the fight against the dark, I have seen it in the flames. The flames do not lie, else you would not be here. It is written in prophecy as well. When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone. The bleeding star has come and gone, and Dragonstone is the place of smoke and salt. Stannis Baratheon is Azor Ahai reborn!”

This was after the return of Davos to Dragonstone. They all urged Stannis to burn Edric so that Mel could wake the stone dragon for him. This waking of the stone dragon is spoken after the Blackwater defeat, not before. Stannis had captured Edric before sailing for Blackwater. Why did Mel say nothing about stone dragons back then? Because Stannis would never accept it as long as he has his army. Mel burned the heart tree of Storm’s End, took Edric and returned to Dragonstone. I bet a significant sum that she was expecting Stannis to be defeated and return to Dragonstone with tail between legs, which would make him more willing to accept the burning of Edric. She nearly had it if not for Davos.

“He is not dead. Stannis is the Lord’s chosen, destined to lead the fight against the dark. I have seen it in the flames, read of it in ancient prophecy. When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone. Dragonstone is the place of smoke and salt.”

-Paper Waver, http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/114143-what-does-reborn-mean/?p=6031586

I don't see these 3 as mutually exclusive. I see them as the same prophecy, although with a different focus on them each time. We can't be sure that there aren't other requirements she is leaving out, but I think we can safely say that all of these ARE part of the AA prophecy, since no one excludes the other.

[sj4iy]

Dany is the biggest cliche in ASOIAF and that's not even close.

Not to mention that 95% of Dany's fans like her because she is a woman, if Dany was a boy they would probably whine about boring and cliche she is.

I mean seriously, what did Jon do to be considered as gary-sue or cliche hero? The most impressive feat he has is defending the wall and that's it, how can you even compare this with Dany the breaker of chains, mother of dragons, queen of meereen, with an army and Barristan Selmy on her side.

Orphan, hidden prince with magical powers, possible chosen one, grows up as outcast, goes through ritual 'boy becomes man' routine and becomes a leader?

Nope, not clichéd at all XD

Jon is my favorite character, but even I will admit his story is clichéd. However, I think his story is well written, so it really doesn't matter. Dany's story is clichéd, too, although I will admit I haven't enjoyed her chapters as much as Jon's (mostly the last book, what with it being absolutely boring as hell).

[BearQueen87]

Is the big enough for you to read? It was a hyperbole. I was saying that she cannot be a traditional hero even if she's written in a bizarre way. It is not my fault if you are cherry picking lines to suit your rants.

She can't be a traditional hero in any sense of the word given that she is, in fact, a woman and traditionally in heroic tales women are the helpmates to the heroes, not the heroes themselves. They can take on the goddess, mother, lover role but the actual hero-ing is left to those with a different sex organ.

She's not the pretty princess locked in a tower waiting for rescue from the brave heroic knight.

Does that mean that she's so anti-cliche as to be AAR? Who the hell knows. It's still possible that she is, just as it's possible that it's Jon.

[TheMysteriousOne]

Anyone who believes that Daenerys Targaryen is a Mary Sue cannot ever possibly be taken seriously. I mean, come on.

[LordStoneheart]

Orphan, hidden prince with magical powers, possible chosen one, grows up as outcast, goes through ritual 'boy becomes man' routine and becomes a leader?

Nope, not clichéd at all XD

Jon is my favorite character, but even I will admit his story is clichéd. However, I think his story is well written, so it really doesn't matter.

This we can agree on. I love Jon Snow. He's a great character and a great read. But if we're going to compare one-to-one cliche and mary sue material, Jon has got in the bag. And no matter how much someone can hate Daenerys, they cannot deny that she is a relatively unique construct in fantasy. Obviously she'll invoke certain familiarity but she is a lot more original than Jon.

[jon rhaegar stark]

I'm saying the prophecy is right...Melisandre is interpreting it wrong, like she has with other visions. I think we have all we need to know about the prophecy, it's just a matter of someone fulfilling all of the obligations at this point, whether it is Dany or Jon. Both are lacking required elements, but I will bet that Jon is AAR, based on the hints we got in the last book.

i dont think we have everything that we have to know about the prophecy because if AAR and TPTWP are the same then we still have to know about three heads and Sphinx is riddle parts which we dont know

GRRM actually said that from the first two books we can learn the ending because all the hints are present there

if we are talking about fulfilling it literally and the light bringer being a real sword

then shouldnt Jon fulfill it Literally ..i mean some of the assumption to jon being AAR is actually made fit into prophecy than prophecy fiting itself( like the bleeding star and waking stone dragon (shireen as a stone dragon and ser patrick bleeding)

[BearQueen87]

Orphan, hidden prince with magical powers, possible chosen one, grows up as outcast, goes through ritual 'boy becomes man' routine and becomes a leader?

Nope, not clichéd at all XD

Jon is my favorite character, but even I will admit his story is clichéd. However, I think his story is well written, so it really doesn't matter. Dany's story is clichéd, too, although I will admit I haven't enjoyed her chapters as much as Jon's (mostly the last book, what with it being absolutely boring as hell).

When it comes to Jon GRRM does stick fairly close to the "known." And that's fine. It's written so well that I don't care. Continue on down your monomyth road, Jon Snow.

[sj4iy]

She can't be a traditional hero in any sense of the word given that she is, in fact, a woman and traditionally in heroic tales women are the helpmates to the heroes, not the heroes themselves. They can take on the goddess, mother, lover role but the actual hero-ing is left to those with a different sex organ.

She's not the pretty princess locked in a tower waiting for rescue from the brave heroic knight.

Does that mean that she's so anti-cliche as to be AAR? Who the hell knows. It's still possible that she is, just as it's possible that it's Jon.

Eh, princesses becoming 'strong' and taking control of their lives is a cliché, too. Martin hasn't done anything new there, either. People just go in for the 'girl power' thing XD

[PirateVergo]

You have a problem with women, sir

No I have no problem with women you're using double standart just like any Dany fan.

Is the big enough for you to read? I was saying that she cannot be a traditional hero. It is not my fault if you are cherry picking lines to suit your rants.

You said "Even if she defeats the Others all by herself" which is impossible since Daenerys wouldn't even beat Hot Pie in a fight.

And sending her dragons to do the job for her is not defeating the others all by herself.

You're the one who's writing impossible things do not blame me for pointing it out.

Orphan, hidden prince with magical powers, possible chosen one, grows up as outcast, goes through ritual 'boy becomes man' routine and becomes a leader?

1) He is not an orphan, he grew up with a Father Lord Eddard Stark.

2) Magical powers? The only magical thing he can do is warg but well every Stark children can do it and many people beyond the wall as well so not so special.

3) Chosen one and that's the ONLY cliche thing in Jon Snow.

4) An outcas who was loved by his Father, and his siblings? Lolnope.

5) He went through ritual just like any other Stark children.

Jon Snow will be a cliche hero if he's AAR reborn (and Martin's words about him will take sense) if he's not then no he won't be since the best thing he did so far was beheading a weakling like Janos Slynt.

[LordStoneheart]

She can't be a traditional hero in any sense of the word given that she is, in fact, a woman and traditionally in heroic tales women are the helpmates to the heroes, not the heroes themselves. They can take on the goddess, mother, lover role but the actual hero-ing is left to those with a different sex organ.

She's not the pretty princess locked in a tower waiting for rescue from the brave heroic knight.

Does that mean that she's so anti-cliche as to be AAR? Who the hell knows. It's still possible that she is, just as it's possible that it's Jon.

I don't think she's anti-cliche so much as she is less capable of being generalized into an archetype. I do agree though. I would buy either of them being AAR if such a thing exists, but if this were a gamble I'd put my money on Dany.

[JonisHenryTudor]

You have a problem with women, sir. You also have a problem with strawmen and taking things out of context. If you would care to ever read responses instead of attacking thin air, you'd see that I said:

Is the big enough for you to read? It was a hyperbole. I was saying that she cannot be a traditional hero even if she's written in a bizarre way. It is not my fault if you are cherry picking lines to suit your rants.

I don't know about PV, but many people I have come across actually fit his description. They like her because she is a woman, and I have also heard the other argument that not liking Dany immediately suggests that you are a misogynist. Just as not voting for/liking Obama means you are a racist. While both versions are obviously twisted, I am sure there are plenty of fans who dislike her for being a woman and others who like her only because she is a woman.

Having said that, thanks for obliterating my retina with that enlarged post. :cheers:

[jon rhaegar stark]

Orphan, hidden prince with magical powers, possible chosen one, grows up as outcast, goes through ritual 'boy becomes man' routine and becomes a leader?

Nope, not clichéd at all XD

Jon is my favorite character, but even I will admit his story is clichéd. However, I think his story is well written, so it really doesn't matter. Dany's story is clichéd, too, although I will admit I haven't enjoyed her chapters as much as Jon's (mostly the last book, what with it being absolutely boring as hell).

this

but only have to disagree on Danny's chapters being boring ..i will advise you to try rereading because you will forget what really happens in the books because of these arguements in the forums and hopefully you will like it because i did too on my reread

[JonisHenryTudor]

Orphan, hidden prince with magical powers, possible chosen one, grows up as outcast, goes through ritual 'boy becomes man' routine and becomes a leader?

Nope, not clichéd at all XD

Jon is my favorite character, but even I will admit his story is clichéd. However, I think his story is well written, so it really doesn't matter. Dany's story is clichéd, too, although I will admit I haven't enjoyed her chapters as much as Jon's (mostly the last book, what with it being absolutely boring as hell).

This is probably the most sensible assessment I have read thus far. I don't care how cliche a character is. If the story is good, it is good.

[BearQueen87]

Eh, princesses becoming 'strong' and taking control of their lives is a cliché, too. Martin hasn't done anything new there, either.

I would say it's a modern cliche, yes. But that goes back to the bigger point; GRRM does like to play with the cliche but he does stick with the "known" in a lot of cases.

I don't think she's anti-cliche so much as she is less capable of being generalized into an archetype. I do agree though. I would buy either of them being AAR if such a thing exists, but if this were a gamble I'd put my money on Dany.

I agree about not being able to peg her. Is she Mother? Queen? Hero? Villain? All of the things?!

As to AAR or not....*helpless shurg* I tend to LOVE the theory that Jon is Lightbringer (it's so well thought out) but I don't know what that leaves Dany as.

But whatever she is or is not, she's going to be vital in taking down the Others. So yay!

[PirateVergo]

Daenerys is more of a mary sue than Jon and anyone who think otherwise does not know what a Mary-sue is.

Jon isn't hadnsome, Jon got no charisma and isn't liked by everyone, Jon isn't extremely talented at anything, he's decent with a sword but no Loras or Jaime. The only reason why he manage to well as a leader is because he's just copying his idol and father.

In fact you can compare Jon with Ned and none of them are mary sue.

[JonisHenryTudor]

this

but only have to disagree on Danny's chapters being boring ..i will advise you to try rereading because you will forget what really happens in the books because of these arguements in the forums

Ehh I have to agree with Sj that her chapters are terribly boring. I have tried re-reading them..... I also don't like her character, which has nothing to do with it. I dislike Cersei as well, but her chapters were fun.

[sj4iy]

1) He is not an orphan, he grew up with a Father Lord Eddard Stark.

Both parents dead. That makes him an orphan. He was adopted by his uncle, but that still doesn't mean he isn't an orphan.

2) Magical powers? The only magical thing he can do is warg but well every Stark children can do it and many people beyond the wall as well so not so special.

Warging and prophetic dreams aren't magical because others can do it now? Where did I say that he was unique in his abilities?

3) Chosen one and that's the ONLY cliche thing in Jon Snow.

Nope.

4) An outcas who was loved by his Father, and his siblings? Lolnope.

And a bastard who couldn't sit at the table with his family when the King came, who couldn't go to court with his 'father' and 'sisters', and who had nowhere else to go so he goes to the Wall, which is nothing more than a glorified penal colony for outcasts.

5) He went through ritual just like any other Stark children.

And which of the other Stark children now command anything?

Jon Snow will be a cliche hero if he's AAR reborn (and Martin's words about him will take sense) if he's not then no he won't be since the best thing he did so far was beheading a weakling like Janos Slynt.

...and defend the Wall against an army of Wildlings, and save thousands of those Wildlings' lives, and refortify the Wall. Nope, you're right...the best thing he did was execute a traitor.

You really don't want to accept that Jon's clichéd, do you?

[LordStoneheart]

No I have no problem with women you're using double standart just like any Dany fan.

You said "Even if she defeats the Others all by herself" which is impossible since Daenerys wouldn't even beat Hot Pie in a fight.

And sending her dragons to do the job for her is not defeating the others all by herself.

You're the one who's writing impossible things do not blame me for pointing it out.

What is double standart? Is it like an easel that holds two paintings?

You cannot loop all Dany fans together. I've never given an indication that I love Dany solely because she was a woman. That's just your narrow view of Dany fans. And may I ask what's wrong with liking someone because they are women? Is there something wrong with women?

There you go cherry-picking again. Look up the word hyperbole. It was an exaggeration to make the point that she is a divisive character.

I don't know where you have the idea that Dany is weak because she doesn't often engage in combat. She would not lose to Hot Pie in a fight. If you think Daenerys is weak you've misread the text. It takes a fair amount of strength to slice a human face off with nothing but a whip. But physical strength is not the end all, be all of positive character traits. Frankly, writing a character as physically tough is a lazier way to give them depth and respect.

[sj4iy]

this

but only have to disagree on Danny's chapters being boring ..i will advise you to try rereading because you will forget what really happens in the books because of these arguements in the forums and hopefully you will like it because i did too on my reread

The only chapters of hers that I find boring are ADWD. I've reread some of them, but they grate on me. I enjoyed her story a lot in the first 3 books.

I don't let the opinions of people on the forums color my judgments. I read the books well before I came in here, so I already knew what I thought :)