Did Rhaegar change his mind about the promised prince?

[UnmaskedLurker]

By reconciled, I meant an explanation why grrm would have structured the vision of HOTU as he did. GRRM had a purpose for telling the story like he did. Like I said, Rhaegar was wrong once, he could be wrong again (and since I think that Jon is tptwp I think he was wrong again, I also think that Rhaegar went to his grave thinking Aegon was tptwp).

I think the HOTU vision is easily explained--it is a vision of what happened--it is a vision of a conversation between Rhaegar and Elia shortly after Aegon's birth. Why did GRRM structure the vision that way? Easy answer--because it gives the reader quite a bit of information to allow the reader to figure out important information without giving away any secrets by spoon feeding information to the reader (which GRRM rarely ever does).

The vision lets us know that part of the prophesy is that the dragon has three heads and that one of the meanings of the title of the entire series (ASOIAF) is that this is the song of TPTWP. That is a big deal--alarm bells should be going off. I think this statement is the only time so far that the series title has been spoken by any character--one time as part of this vision (which basically is a re-telling of an actual past conversation). So it should get the reader thinking--well, is Aegon really TPTWP? Is he really a good fit for A Song of Ice and Fire? And when we find out that Rhaegar once thought he himself was TPTWP, the reader should think, well, Rhaegar changed his mind once, might he have changed it again? Does this explain why he was so desperate to run off with Lyanna--a girl of North (where bastards are named snow--people associated with ice)--to have a baby. The structure of the HOTU vision is completely consistent with the notion that Rhaegar, being obsessed with prophesy, realized once he fell in love with Lyanna, that it would be their son who would be TPTWP, who would have A Son(g) of Ice (Lyanna) and Fire (Rhaegar).

So no, I do not think Rhaegar went to his grave thinking Aegon would be TPTWP. I think Rhaegar was smart, and I think he would have realized that his son with a girl of the North would be TPTWP. Keep in mind the limits of what GRRM can tell the reader at this point to provide necessary clues and what he cannot without giving away too much. The HOTU vision is a perfect vision to give the reader information necessary to figure out that Rhaegar went off with Lyanna (and consider everything he risked to do so, and as we know, these actions eventually led to war, at least indirectly) because he needed to produce TPTWP and the third head of the dragon.

[BearQueen87]

There is no mention that TPTWP needs to be born of an ice parent and fire parent.

Needs to? No. But that's how Rhaegar interpreted it. That's what is important. He thinks that TPTWP's song is the one of ice and fire. His child with Lyanna would be the embodiment of that idea. Whether or not that's actually in the prophecy doesn't matter; it's how Rhaegar understood it. Doesn't mean he's wrong either, he seems to have been obsessed with riddling it out.

Unmasked Lurker said it best:

GRRM tells the reader that Rhaegar already changed his mind once. This fact is a clue that he could change it again. GRRM gives us a vision of Rhaegar saying that TPTWP has a song--A Song of Ice and Fire. So if Rhaegar is already known to be someone who can change his mind on the topic, and we know that he was obsessed with the prophesy, and we know he ran off to have a child with Lyanna--a girl of the North, the clues are more than sufficient to lead an attentive reader to the conclusion that Rhaegar realized that his son with Lyanna would be TPTWP because his song really would be A Song of Ice (Lyanna) and Fire (Rhaegar). Rhaegar almost certainly would have made this connection and come to this conclusion.

[Wmarshal]

Needs to? No. But that's how Rhaegar interpreted it. That's what is important. He thinks that TPTWP's song is the one of ice and fire. His child with Lyanna would be the embodiment of that idea. Whether or not that's actually in the prophecy doesn't matter; it's how Rhaegar understood it.

Unmasked Lurker said it best:

We have no proof he interpreted that way. Leanna's last name doesn't make her ice.

[UnmaskedLurker]

There is no mention that TPTWP needs to be born of an ice parent and fire parent.

Are you serious? Of course there is no explicit mention--there could not be because it would give away too much--but we have as close to this statement as we could possibly get under the circumstances. Rhaegar tells us that TPTWP has a song--A Song of Ice and Fire. Yes, that could have many meanings. But then we also find out that Rhaegar's family is closely connected to TPTWP prophesy (the woods witch saying it would come from Aerys and Rhaella's line). We have Rhaegar risking everything to run off with Lyanna presumably to finish fulfilling the prophesy. The ONLY time the title of the series is stated, it is stated in relation to being the song of TPTWP. And then we have Jon, the son a Lyanna (ice) and Rhaegar (fire). So anyone who understands how to interpret clues from stories of this type would conclude that if TPTWP is said to have a song, A Song of Ice and Fire, and if one of the main characters--Jon--is pretty much obviously the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, then he is the Son(g) of Ice (Lyanna) and Fire (Rhaegar) personified. It really does not take that much analysis to conclude that Jon is TPTWP because he is the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar.

[BearQueen87]

We have no proof he interpreted that way. Leanna's last name doesn't make her ice.

Read what I said a page back. The people of Westeros take those sigils and ideas more seriously than we do. The Targaryen's think they are dragons and their words are FIRE and blood. The Starks are the North and Winter. No one actually IS ice and fire; they symbolize those ideas. That's how Rhaegar interprets it.

[Wmarshal]

Read what I said a page back. The people of Westeros take those sigils and ideas more seriously than we do. The Targaryen's think they are dragons and their words are FIRE and blood. The Starks are the North and Winter. No one actually IS ice and fire; they symbolize those ideas. That's how Rhaegar interprets it.

Again I ask, where is it said he did?

[UnmaskedLurker]

We have no proof he interpreted that way. Leanna's last name doesn't make her ice.

Rhaegar explicitly stated in the vision that TPTWP has a song, A Song of Ice and Fire. He is communicating information about the prophesy regarding TPTWP to Elia. So once the reader realizes that this song is part of the prophesy--and the title of the entire series--so likely very important--interpreting the meaning becomes pretty important. You keep saying that Lyanna is not ice--but of course she represents ice, as would anyone from the North. Moreover, Lyanna is the only person from the North who has a child with a Targaryen. So in Rhaegar's mind, when Rhaegar clearly understands that TPTWP has a song, A Song of Ice and Fire, he would understand that while he represents fire, if he falls in love with a girl of the North, she would be ice to his fire and their child would be TPTWP.

[Lonin]

I think the HOTU vision is easily explained-- snip

Not bad, don't agree, but a good explanation.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Again I ask, where is it said he did?

Are you kidding? Of course GRRM cannot explicitly state that Rhaegar considered Lyanna ice to his fire--it would give away too much. But it does not take that big a leap for an attentive reader to realize that once he hooks up with a girl of the North, given that we already know that he believes that TPTWP would come from the Aerys and Rhaella's line and that he was in love with a girl of the North and that he believe that TPTWP has a song--A Song of Ice and Fire, that someone who thinks like Rhaegar would conclude that Lyanna was ice to his fire. Of course, the readers will not get proof until much later in the series. But we have really good evidence now. If you are interested in trying to use clues to figure out where the story is going, you have to be willing to put these clues together. If you prefer to wait for GRRM to spell it out explicitly, they just wait, because it will be a while.

[Wmarshal]

Rhaegar explicitly stated in the vision that TPTWP has a song, A Song of Ice and Fire. He is communicating information about the prophesy regarding TPTWP to Elia. So once the reader realizes that this song is part of the prophesy--and the title of the entire series--so likely very important--interpreting the meaning becomes pretty important. You keep saying that Lyanna is not ice--but of course she represents ice, as would anyone from the North. Moreover, Lyanna is the only person from the North who has a child with a Targaryen. So in Rhaegar's mind, when Rhaegar clearly understands that TPTWP has a song, A Song of Ice and Fire, he would understand that while he represents fire, if he falls in love with a girl of the North, she would be ice to his fire and their child would be TPTWP.

And then said it was baby Aegon's song, not lyanna's baby, to say Lyanna is ice ignores this.

You still have no evidence he ever changed his mind.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Not bad, don't agree, but a good explanation.

If you don't agree, that if fine. we can agree to disagree. I am curious, however, where you see the flaws in my logic or what you think is inaccurate in what I have surmised about the HOTU vision.

[Wmarshal]

Are you kidding? Of course GRRM cannot explicitly state that Rhaegar considered Lyanna ice to his fire--it would give away too much. But it does not take that big a leap for an attentive reader to realize that once he hooks up with a girl of the North, given that we already know that he believes that TPTWP would come from the Aerys and Rhaella's line and that he was in love with a girl of the North and that he believe that TPTWP has a song--A Song of Ice and Fire, that someone who thinks like Rhaegar would conclude that Lyanna was ice to his fire. Of course, the readers will not get proof until much later in the series. But we have really good evidence now. If you are interested in trying to use clues to figure out where the story is going, you have to be willing to put these clues together. If you prefer to wait for GRRM to spell it out explicitly, they just wait, because it will be a while.

He said Aegon was the prince after met Lyanna and prepared his plan.

[BearQueen87]

And then said it was baby Aegon's song, not lyanna's baby, to say Lyanna is ice ignores this.

You still have no evidence he ever changed his mind.

But we do have evidence that Rhaegar had changed his mind once already, meaning that he was capable of changing it again. He must realize that Aegon CANNOT have the song of ice and fire. Elia is not in any way shape or form an embodiment of Ice. But Lyanna is. GRRM explicitly shows that Rhaegar was constantly trying to puzzle out the prophecy. He's a smart guy but GRRM is a smarter writer. He can't say, "and then Rhaegar changed his mind again for Lyanna's son" Jon's heritage is the central mystery of the series.

[UnmaskedLurker]

And then said it was baby Aegon's song, not lyanna's baby, to say Lyanna is ice ignores this.

You still have no evidence he ever changed his mind.

Wow--is it really that hard to follow? Rhaegar changed his mind once. If he changed it again, there is ZERO chance that GRRM would state this fact explicitly at this point. We have pretty good clues that Aegon really is dead--and the new Aegon is (f)Aegon (some type of pretender even if he thinks himself the real Aegon).

I think people around here confuse evidence with proof. Of course, I cannot have absolute proof because there is no way GRRM would give us that proof at this point in the story. But we have plenty of clues--which I would call evidence. The clues are that Rhaegar is known to be willing to change his mind on the prophesy, that Rhaegar ran off with a girl of the North to have a baby and that Rhaegar believes that the song of TPTWP is ASOIAF. These all count as evidence--not absolute uncontrovertible proof, but evidence in the form of clues. That is how GRRM writes, he gives clues to be figured out. Either you can follow the clues or you cannot. These clues are pretty blatant clues to me (i.e., evidence to me) that Rhaegar realized that his son with Lyanna would be TPTWP.

But whether Rhaegar realized this fact or not is not really that critical. What is critical is that it is clear to me that Jon is A Son(g) of Ice (Lyanna) and Fire (Rhaegar) personified, and thus is TPTWP.

[Wmarshal]

But we do have evidence that Rhaegar had changed his mind once already, meaning that he was capable of changing it again. He must realize that Aegon CANNOT have the song of ice and fire. Elia is not in any way shape or form an embodiment of Ice. But Lyanna is. GRRM explicitly shows that Rhaegar was constantly trying to puzzle out the prophecy. He's a smart guy but GRRM is a smarter writer. He can't say, "and then Rhaegar changed his mind again for Lyanna's son" Jon's heritage is the central mystery of the series.

How could he realize this? Rhaegar was a proven imbecile.

[BearQueen87]

How could he realize this? Rhaegar was a proven imbecile.

Prove to me that Rhaegar was a proven imbecile that is not colored by your own personal bias.

[Wmarshal]

Wow--is it really that hard to follow? Rhaegar changed his mind once. If he changed it again, there is ZERO chance that GRRM would state this fact explicitly at this point. We have pretty good clues that Aegon really is dead--and the new Aegon is (f)Aegon (some type of pretender even if he thinks himself the real Aegon).

I think people around here confuse evidence with proof. Of course, I cannot have absolute proof because there is no way GRRM would give us that proof at this point in the story. But we have plenty of clues--which I would call evidence. The clues are that Rhaegar is known to be willing to change his mind on the prophesy, that Rhaegar ran off with a girl of the North to have a baby and that Rhaegar believes that the song of TPTWP is ASOIAF. These all count as evidence--not absolute uncontrovertible proof, but evidence in the form of clues. That is how GRRM writes, he gives clues to be figured out. Either you can follow the clues or you cannot. These clues are pretty blatant clues to me (i.e., evidence to me) that Rhaegar realized that his son with Lyanna would be TPTWP.

But whether Rhaegar realized this fact or not is not really that critical. What is critical is that it is clear to me that Jon is A Son(g) of Ice (Lyanna) and Fire (Rhaegar) personified, and thus is TPTWP.

I believe Jon is the prince as well, but Rhaegar only stated he needed a third head, nothing indicating he believed Jon was the prince

[UnmaskedLurker]

He said Aegon was the prince after met Lyanna and prepared his plan.

I do not think your statement about the timing is accurate. The vision takes place shortly after Aegon's birth. I do not believe Rhaegar already planned to run off with Lyanna at that point in time. Do you have any evidence of any kind of the time line to indicate otherwise? Sure, he probably met Lyanna before that time, but I don't think there is any reason to think Rhaegar already planned to run off with Lyanna by that point in time.

[Wmarshal]

Prove to me that Rhaegar was a proven imbecile that is not colored by your own personal bias.

go to hundreds of Rhaegar threads.

[UnmaskedLurker]

I believe Jon is the prince as well, but Rhaegar only stated he needed a third head, nothing indicating he believed Jon was the prince

I think you have an issue in which you decline to interpolate information to form a conclusion. Yes, at that point in time, Rhaegar said he needed a third head because he still believed Aegon to be TPTWP. You are looking for direct proof of a kind that GRRM will not give because it would give away too much. Why do you think Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna and got her pregnant? Just to have the third head? Maybe. But when taking all the clues together, logic suggests that Rhaegar realized his earlier mistake and realized Jon would be TPTWP. But whether R only wanted to produce the third head with L or TPTWP with L is really not that significant a detail. If you accept that Jon is TPTWP, it really does matter if R knew this would be the case or not because R is dead.