Did Rhaegar change his mind about the promised prince?

[BearQueen87]

I believe Jon is the prince as well, but Rhaegar only stated he needed a third head, nothing indicating he believed Jon was the prince

Rhaegar changed his mind. Hence the purpose of the OP.

go to hundreds of Rhaegar threads.

I have read many of them. Prove it to me without using other posters opinions. Use text, canon, SSM's. Use something other than your peers own personal opinions.

What we know: Rhaegar was an intelligent, contemplative, well-read, man. He was was capable of changing his mind (believing Aegon was TPTWP whereas he once believed it to be himself). This indicates that he was never satisfied with answers, that he spent a lot of time puzzling out prophecy.

How are you defining imbecile?

[UnmaskedLurker]

go to hundreds of Rhaegar threads

These threads show that a lot of people blame R for the war and that he did not always show good judgment. That is different from being an imbecile. R may be like many people who are basically "book smart"--they don't always read how people will react to their actions correctly. R may have had that problem. But the text makes it clear that R was quite intelligent and well studied. Any belief to the contrary is contradicted by all the evidence stated about R in the text.

[Wmarshal]

I do not think your statement about the timing is accurate. The vision takes place shortly after Aegon's birth. I do not believe Rhaegar already planned to run off with Lyanna at that point in time. Do you have any evidence of any kind of the time line to indicate otherwise? Sure, he probably met Lyanna before that time, but I don't think there is any reason to think Rhaegar already planned to run off with Lyanna by that point in time.

" there most be one more." I do believe he said, or third.

[UnmaskedLurker]

" there most be one more." I do believe he said, or third.

Ummm--that is because the dragon has three heads and he only had two children at that time. He is speaking about a need to have a third child--but the evidence we have is that he did not figure out how to have that third child until later--when he decided to run off with Lyanna. You only have evidence that he stated a need for a third child--which we know. He would make that statement regardless of whether he already figured out how to accomplish getting the third child so the statement is not an indication of anything other than that R believed he needed to have 3 children to be the three heads of the dragon.

[WeaselPie]

Needs to? No. But that's how Rhaegar interpreted it. That's what is important. He thinks that TPTWP's song is the one of ice and fire. His child with Lyanna would be the embodiment of that idea. Whether or not that's actually in the prophecy doesn't matter; it's how Rhaegar understood it. Doesn't mean he's wrong either, he seems to have been obsessed with riddling it out.

Unmasked Lurker said it best:

There is no indication that Rhaegar ever thought an ice parent and a fire parent was needed for TPTWP. He thought himself TP and obviously had two fire parents. Then he figured it was Aegon... again, no ice. Then Aemon, who probably knew as much about the prophecy as Rhaegar did, named Dany. Again, no ice there (that we know of). He had already named Aegon TP and named his song before Lyanna got knocked up.Do INo

There is no indication Rhaegar changed his mind. He died thinking Aegon was TPTWP and his was the song of ice and fire. Dany's vision shows that did not change, other wise what was the point of the vision?

Yes Rhaegar thought there must be a third. There is no indication that third had to be ice, and, in fact, is presumably Dany.

[Ser Leftwich]

Also, remember that the visions in the HoTUO should be taken with a grain of salt. These are drug addled mystics trying to kidnap Daenerys to use as a magical battery of sorts.

[Wmarshal]

Rhaegar changed his mind. Hence the purpose of the OP.

I have read many of them. Prove it to me without using other posters opinions. Use text, canon, SSM's. Use something other than your peers own personal opinions.

What we know: Rhaegar was an intelligent, contemplative, well-read, man. He was was capable of changing his mind (believing Aegon was TPTWP whereas he once believed it to be himself). This indicates that he was never satisfied with answers, that he spent a lot of time puzzling out prophecy.

How are you defining imbecile?

Again, when, when in this whole series did any character said Rhaegar May changed his mind.

Alright then, an imbecile abandon his wife and kids in the hand of a mad man.

[UnmaskedLurker]

There is no indication that Rhaegar ever thought an ice parent and a fire parent was needed for TPTWP. He thought himself TP and obviously had two fire parents. Then he figured it was Aegon... again, no ice. Then Aemon, who probably knew as much about the prophecy as Rhaegar did, named Dany. Again, no ice there (that we know of). He had already named Aegon TP and named his song before Lyanna got knocked up.Do INo

There is no indication Rhaegar changed his mind. He died thinking Aegon was TPTWP and his was the song of ice and fire. Dany's vision shows that did not change, other wise what was the point of the vision?

Yes Rhaegar thought there must be a third. There is no indication that third had to be ice, and, in fact, is presumably Dany.

I will try this one more time and hopefully I can be clear now. OF COURSE, GRRM cannot tell us explicitly that any of the characters thought that TPTWP would come from an ice parent and fire parent. But we know that Rhaegar believes that the song of TPTWP is A Song of ICE and FIRE. Unless someone knows that R and L had a son, no one has any knowledge of anyone who is a child of an ice and fire parent. So no one makes the connection. But once the reader is told that the song of TPTWP is A Song of Ice and Fire, and once the reader realizes that Jon is the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar, the conclusion become pretty obvious.

Rhaegar was constantly trying to interpret the prophesy. We know that R believed ASOIAF to be the song of TPTWP. We know that R ran off with L--at great risk--and had a baby with her. R did not decide on the song in the vision--he was reporting the song of TPTWP to Elia. Presumably the song is part of the prophesy that has been around for thousands of years--no one knew what to make of it, but it was part of the prophesy. Later, when he goes off with Lyanna--it would be pretty obvious to a man like R that the nature of the song means that TPTWP would be his son with L and not E. Either these connections make sense to you or they do not but GRRM will not spoon feed them to you at this stage in the story. It would give away too much.

The point of the vision is to give the reader as much information as GRRM can give the reader without giving away too much. Remember, that with GRRM whatever is stated explicitly is almost never the case in the end. So the vision lets the reader know what R thought at a specific point in time so that the reader could figure out what the prophesy really means--which is different than what R thought at that specific point in time. Assuming R changed his mind (and I think he did), GRRM cannot state this explicitly. But the vision is still incredibly important to give the reader enough information to figure out what is really going on.

The point of the vision is not to tell the reader the last thing R thought--but rather what R thought at that moment in time. If we found out what R thought later in time, then the mystery would be over. GRRM cannot reveal the mystery that easily. So the vision was as much as GRRM could reveal.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Again, when, when in this whole series did any character said Rhaegar May changed his mind.

Alright then, an imbecile abandon his wife and kids in the hand of a mad man.

We got the clue that R changes his mind when we learned that at one time R thought he himself was TPTWP and then later thought Aegon. So we are given this clue that R is constantly revising his interpretation of the prophesy and capable of changing him mind on the identity of TPTWP.

You and I have a very different definition of imbecile. And E and the children were not at risk from Aerys--he did not kill them--nor would he have under virtually any circumstance. He uses E as a hostage for political reasons, but he has no reason to harm her.

You really need to go back and read more carefully because you completely misunderstand how GRRM has written the character of Rhaegar.

[BearQueen87]

Also, remember that the visions in the HoTUO should be taken with a grain of salt. These are drug addled mystics trying to kidnap Daenerys to use as a magical battery of sorts.

I agree with everything Unmasked Lurker wrote above. To touch on this: sure, a grain of salt. But we know that Rhaegar DID consider Aegon to be TPTWP at one point. That was confirmed. So we can take the rest of this vision as "true" in that it was what Rhaegar believed, that TPTWP would have the song of ice and fire.

[Wmarshal]

Ummm--that is because the dragon has three heads and he only had two children at that time. He is speaking about a need to have a third child--but the evidence we have is that he did not figure out how to have that third child until later--when he decided to run off with Lyanna. You only have evidence that he stated a need for a third child--which we know. He would make that statement regardless of whether he already figured out how to accomplish getting the third child so the statement is not an indication of anything other than that R believed he needed to have 3 children to be the three heads of the dragon.

This is the only passage of him speaking of the prophecy, he states Aegon is the song, now him needing a third head is only evidence of reason we have of taking Lyanna, there is nothing in text that proves your is better or stronger then this.

[Wmarshal]

We got the clue that R changes his mind when we learned that at one time R thought he himself was TPTWP and then later thought Aegon. So we are given this clue that R is constantly revising his interpretation of the prophesy and capable of changing him mind on the identity of TPTWP.

You and I have a very different definition of imbecile. And E and the children were not at risk from Aerys--he did not kill them--nor would he have under virtually any circumstance. He uses E as a hostage for political reasons, but he has no reason to harm her.

You really need to go back and read more carefully because you completely misunderstand how GRRM has written the character of Rhaegar.

That isn't a clue, he revised it once, not constantly. That clue lacks any bases what so ever that he changed his mind again.

Yeah they were, he was planning to burn them alive with the city.

Like what? Leaving him without deeds to back the kiss ass, or shaming his life in front of the world?

[BearQueen87]

This is the only passage of him speaking of the prophecy, he states Aegon is the song, now him needing a third head is only evidence of reason we have of taking Lyanna, there is nothing in text that proves your is better or stronger then this.

Then why Lyanna? If he doesn't believe that TPTWP must have the song of Ice and Fire (like he once thought for Aegon, which makes no sense since Aegon is the child of two fire parents) then why Lyanna Stark, an embodiment of ice and winter and the north. Why not just some other girl from anywhere? If all he's looking for is a third head then it's odd that the woman he runs off with just so happens to be an Ice embodiment.

That isn't a clue, he revised it once, not constantly. That clue lacks any bases what so ever that he changed his mind again.

Yeah they were, he was planning to burn them alive with the city.

Like what? Leaving him without deeds to back the kiss ass, or shaming his life in front of the world?

He would have revised it once it dawned on him that Aegon cannot have the song of Ice and Fire, not the way Westerosi think about how those ideas are embodied. That's what we're arguing. There is already evidence that Rhaegar was capable of changing his mind. He did once again. For NARRATIVE reasons, GRRM is not going to say, "and then he changed his mind again with Lyanna" because R+L = J is the central mystery of the series.

He only planned on lightening the wildfire as the absolute last resort when he realizes Tywin had betrayed him. Elia and her children were hostages to make sure Dorne didn't flip and that KG Martell stayed loyal.

[Lonin]

If you don't agree, that if fine. we can agree to disagree. I am curious, however, where you see the flaws in my logic or what you think is inaccurate in what I have surmised about the HOTU vision.

Not flaws or inaccuracies. I admit that I am not that invested either way, I just don't think we have any information that Rhaegar changed his mind (again). We have so little information about Rhaegar/Lyanna and so many gaps in the narrative that its difficult if not impossible to state definitively one way or the other. We might in a future book get a flashback that might add additional information.

as an aside. How does Rhaegar know the baby(Jon) will be a boy? or does it matter?

[Wmarshal]

Lyanna stark isn't an embodiment of anything, every northmen has good amount of stark blood in them, taking her at all was pointless and honestly a guess.

Why can't he be? The prophecy only stated the prince be descent from Aerys and Rhaella. What is the song? Aemon a man with more wisdom in his little toe believes Dany is the song, no well has to be a bit northerner. Northerners aren't even originally from the north, their just first men who came from Dorne. And no evidence at all he did. Seriously you keep saying " well Martin want spoil it." He feels this books with hints but not one includes Rhaegar changing his mind about the song.

And still burn them alive.

[BearQueen87]

Why can't he be? The prophecy only stated the prince be descent from Aerys and Rhaella. What is the song? Aemon a man with more wisdom in his little toe believes Dany is the song, no well has to be a bit northerner. Northerners aren't even originally from the north, their just first men who came from Dorne. And no evidence at all he did. Seriously you keep saying " well Martin want spoil it." He feels this books with hints but not one includes Rhaegar changing his mind about the song.

I agree that Aemon is a very smart man, but Aemon does not have all the information. He does not know that Jon Snow is the son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark, for example. So Aemon's intelligence is neither here nor there. What matters is what Rhaegar believes and he believes that TPTWP's song is that of Ice and Fire. Rhaegar might be totally wrong in his interpretation and maybe the song doesn't fit with TPTWP at all, but again, that's not important. His actions are dependent upon his own interpretation of prophecy. And his interpretation is that The Prince That Was Promised already has a song, and it is a song of ice and fire.

I never said Rhaegar changes his mind about THE SONG. He changes his mind about TPTWP, the song remains the same.

[Wmarshal]

As did Aemon, seriously, if ice and fire means parents and that is so obvious why belive himself or Aegon were the prince to bgin with. And we no information saying interpreted it the way you are saying it.

[UnmaskedLurker]

As did Aemon, seriously, if ice and fire means parents and that is so obvious why belive himself or Aegon were the prince to bgin with. And we no information saying interpreted it the way you are saying it.

You are missing the point. They knew the prophesy--so A Song of Ice and Fire being the song of The Prince That Was Promised apparently was part of the prophesy. But they keep looking around to try to figure out what the prophesy really means. It means a lot of things. Ultimately, I think, for example, that the battle between the Other (ice) and Dragons (fire) also will be a meaning. So they know the prophesy but don't know how to interpret it. They keep looking for clues. Without any connection to an ice parent, they don't think it means an ice parent. But once Rhaegar hooks up with Lyanna--then the obviousness of the connection almost certainly would have occurred to R.

They have the prophesy but don't have the "decoder ring" to tell them what every element means. So they don't originally understand ice and fire also means the parents. And once again, GRRM CANNOT have them make this connection for the reader because it would give away too much. So either you see the connection or you don't. I don't think I can make it any more clear.

[Wmarshal]

How would it be obvious? He met Lyanna before declare Aegon. Again, none o this has any backing in the books.

[UnmaskedLurker]

How would it be obvious? He met Lyanna before declare Aegon. Again, none o this has any backing in the books.

But he did not know he would have a child with Lyanna before Aegon. Only when Elia was diagnosed as unable to have a third child that R even considered marrying a second wife. Once he fell in love with Lyanna--which happened later it time, would it have become obvious to Rhaegar.