Did Rhaegar change his mind about the promised prince?

[DragonDreamer]

Yes, indeed. And, in fact, before AFFC came out the main arguments against Dany were that "the promised _prince_" indicates a male and the sword association of AA ditto. Even though Jon didn't fulfill a single prophecy at that point, he was the fore-runner for the Promised Prince and Azor Ahai for no other reason than because he fit Arthurian and generic fantasy hero stereotypes so neatly.

I wasn't part of the board then but it makes sense that they'd still try to fit the prophecy to Jon even if at that time he had not fulfilled anything. Even though I'm still skeptical now of the requirements he has "fulfilled".

Yep, that would be the real subversion, rather than whatever minor differences can be found between Jon and stock "hidden prince" trope. The notion that Dany is "too obvious" is ironic in itself, because female "chosen ones" were vanishingly rare in myth and genre fantasy until the boom of urban fantasy. And even there they are... somewhat less important to the proceedings by themselves than their male counterparts.

Now, personally, I don't believe that ASOIAF would have one central hero or that the AA/the Promised Prince prophecies are going to be fulfilled by a single person. IMHO, it is very much much an ensemble cast show. "Three heads has the dragon" and "lone wolf dies, but the pack survives" and all that.

But the attempts to side-line Dany and exalt Jon (or other male characters) into the central protagonist of the epic are telling, IMHO, and illustrate that Dany is by no means a "too obvious" candidate and that letting her actually be "the one" could have been a very neat subversion, that would have surprised many readers. But a single savior is not what ASOIAF is about. IMHO, YMMV.

Oh, I'm in agreement about there not being a one-true-hero. like I said upbeat about the whole Jon being the Song of Ice and Fire,

GRRM is not writing a series about a "one true hero" so why would he named the series after a character? Someone pointed out on another thread that Bloodraven could be the Song of Ice and Fire, he was born from a First Men / Targaryen union. Jon's parentage is not unique. I'm sure once we get the world book we'll see more First Men / Targaryen marriages.

In a recent interview Martin said that he doesn't believe in heroes but in men and women doing heroic things. It'll be funny if Dany hear about the prophecy but doesn't believe in it (she has shown an aversion to R'hllor) and have others who don't fulfill the prophesy all work together in different capacities for the War for Dawn. Whether they are the Prince or whatever they won't be able to do it all alone. it'll be war with many hero where all their different skill sets will come into place. I think that Dany is really good getting people from different cultures and stations in life together under one banner, she'll be able to amass the different factions. Now, a person like that becomes this larger than life persona and that's where the PTWP thingy majiggy comes into play. However, the other leader, strategic and such are just as important.

[Tony Schmidt]

Remember what Tyrion said about prophesy that it is like a blind mule. Meaning that prophesies are hard to decipher. Melisande even admitted that she had a hard time figuring them out. I think this is also the case with Rhaegar.

[DragonDreamer]

Dany clearly is much more central to the overall story than any other character. She is the one who is constantly surrounded by magic and prophecy, the one who is sought out by various people and factions for precisely that reason.

The very fact that she does clearly not want to become a hero/savior at all, as well as the fact that she has no clue about the people/land she is supposed to be saving, is a a very good clue that she will eventually be forced to do both.

I agree with you except for the bolded part. She might not think to herself, "I want to be a hero and save everyone" but she instinctively feels compelled to save the down-trotted. It's the whole Mhysa thing, she wants to take care of people, she can't help herself.

[Lord Varys]

Yeah, of course, she is receptive to fulfill the needs/expectations of others. That's why I like that she gets 'sidetracked' by the Slaver's Bay thing. She sees people in trouble and tries to better their situation.

[UnmaskedLurker]

How can someone even answer this?

1. Why do you troll every Rhaegar thread? I've never seen a Rhaegar thread without you defending Rhaegar.

2. How can you be proven wrong so many times and still make the same arguments over and over again?

While I am sure that BQ is more than capable of defending herself, I will give it a crack anyway.

1. Trolling is when someone puts forth a theory that is not really believed by the poster or based on no real evidence just to get a reaction from other posters. BQ in no way is doing this--she definitely believes the theory (as do I, more or less, but that is beside the point). So calling her a troll is inappropriate and suggests that maybe you are the troll. She has become a frequent poster and has a right to post in threads that raise issues of interest to her. So if she believes Rhaegar did certain things for certain reasons, of course she will raise these points whenever someone makes an argument that is contrary to her position. What else are the boards for? Is someone only allowed to make a certain argument so many times? I really think you should be a little more respectful in your statements. You have been registered on the boards for less than a month and already you think you are the arbiter of what is trolling and what arguments people are allowed to make and how often?

2. Just because you are not convinced does not mean the BQ has been proved wrong. Nothing in BQ's post contains any piece of information that has been disproven. In fact, this theory regarding the identity of TKOTLT and the crowning is not put forward only by BQ. I have seen posters who have been on the board for years put forth similar theories. If you are going to assert so boldly that a theory has been definitively disproven, please point the rest of us to this unambiguous evidence you supposedly have that BQ's theory is wrong. The theory may not be right, but it has much to support it, and to my knowledge, no clear evidence to the contrary. It is just one theory that has some textual support that explains people's actions that are otherwise unexplained by GRRM. So please, what is the "proof" that BQ's theory is wrong?

[DragonDreamer]

Yeah, of course, she is receptive to fulfill the needs/expectations of others. That's why I like that she gets 'sidetracked' by the Slaver's Bay thing. She sees people in trouble and tries to better their situation.

I like it too! It's one of my favorite things about her. She puts the needs of others in front of her and never resents it, for all her faults she's a very generous (of herself) and empathetic character.

[willofDorne]

While I am sure that BQ is more than capable of defending herself, I will give it a crack anyway.

1. Trolling is when someone puts forth a theory that is not really believed by the poster or based on no real evidence just to get a reaction from other posters. BQ in no way is doing this--she definitely believes the theory (as do I, more or less, but that is beside the point). So calling her a troll is inappropriate and suggests that maybe you are the troll. She has become a frequent poster and has a right to post in threads that raise issues of interest to her. So if she believes Rhaegar did certain things for certain reasons, of course she will raise these points whenever someone makes an argument that is contrary to her position. What else are the boards for? Is someone only allowed to make a certain argument so many times? I really think you should be a little more respectful in your statements. You have been registered on the boards for less than a month and already you think you are the arbiter of what is trolling and what arguments people are allowed to make and how often?

2. Just because you are not convinced does not mean the BQ has been proved wrong. Nothing in BQ's post contains any piece of information that has been disproven. In fact, this theory regarding the identity of TKOTLT and the crowning is not put forward only by BQ. I have seen posters who have been on the board for years put forth similar theories. If you are going to assert so boldly that a theory has been definitively disproven, please point the rest of us to this unambiguous evidence you supposedly have that BQ's theory is wrong. The theory may not be right, but it has much to support it, and to my knowledge, no clear evidence to the contrary. It is just one theory that has some textual support that explains people's actions that are otherwise unexplained by GRRM. So please, what is the "proof" that BQ's theory is wrong?

I am pretty sure Bear Queen is a guy.

Whenever I put evidence into these threads, I'm ignored and cherry picked... so I'd rather not waste my time posting anymore theories. Rhaegar defenders are mostly just trolling. It's a verb, not a noun. "fish by trailing a baited line along behind a boat."

I've seen more than enough evidence and I'd rather not engage in anymore of this distasteful discussion.

[BearQueen87]

I am pretty sure Bear Queen is a guy.

She is, in fact, not.

And I'm not entirely sure why we're talking about me in a thread that is supposed to be about whether or not Rhaegar changed his mind concerning TPTWP. You don't agree with my--and Unmasked Lurker's--opinions, fine. There is zero need for it to get personal.

[UnmaskedLurker]

She is, in fact, not.

And I'm not entirely sure why we're talking about me in a thread that is supposed to be about whether or not Rhaegar changed his mind concerning TPTWP. You don't agree with my--and Unmasked Lurker's--opinions, fine. There is zero need for it to get personal.

What SHE said.

[the conquering bastard 25]

What's the consensus here? We know that Rhaegar changed his mind at least one time. First he believed he was the promised prince, then he changed his mind and thought his son Aegon was the promised prince. When he did that, he also concluded for some occult reason that he had to father (at least) another child because 'the dragon has three heads'.

We know that Elia could not bear any children after the birth of Aegon, and that Rhaegar obviously decided that Lyanna should be the one who gave birth to his third child.

But did he also concluded that his child by Lyanna would be the one whose 'song is the song of ice and fire'?

I'd like to put forward the notion that - assuming that Rhaegar did indeed change his opinion on that topic yet again - we have a very good reason to dismiss Jon Snow as the candidate for the promised prince. The purpose of the Rhaegar character - the melancholy, prophecy-obsessed prince - seems to fail to interpret the prophecy correctly. His hubris is that he thinks it is his job fulfill the prophecy, or help the prophecy to 'fulfill itself'.

It would surprise me if Rhaegar was ever right about the prophecy - he is pretty much the kind of guy Marwyn seems to aiming at with his quote about how prophecy fuck with you...

If one was to look at Jon Snow lineage it's kind of obvious and then there are little hints about Jon's lineage its self in his physical person. (I'm not talking about his parents but his blood lines. This is interesting and if I make a couple of jumps in logic it's because I'm putting some things together based on conjecture.)

Let's start with this stark blood lines.

Jon's related to the Wildlings and not just any wildlings but Bael the Barb king beyond the wall. Through Brandon the daughter.

Jon's freakish strengthen I've got to wonder if after the dragons came did house Stark wed into house Umber? Jon and his giant's strength( I mean the man's got a classic swimmer's build and I know that they are strong but this is the same man that picks up men one handed and chokes them, had to be body blocked by Sam, Glen and pypar was on his back. Or he wrestles with a giant direwolf that's described as being as big as a fucking pony. The boy's strong for such a little man. To say the least)

The in the released spoiler chapter about stark lineage, there have been several marriages between house Manderly. Now why is this important or special? Well for starters they took over the seat house house GreyStark (Greyjoy and Stark anyone) died in the male line but in the female line it's still thriving. Given the tendacy for northern houses to wed inside the north, the line could be passed into different high born houses in that region. So Manderly may have some Greystark blood. But also, though the female line they may have a blood tie to house Gardener before they were driven from the reach. So Jon's related to house Gardener in the female line and the raven calling jon the corn king might make a little more sense. Not in the corn king theory but that he's thinking about how to feed the north during the winter and his mind does go to the glass gardens and hot pools. What the watch could do with some glass blowers of Myr. So he's thinking of making the land fertile in winter.

In the same spoiler page we find out that the Starks also wed into house Royce. Why important, they may have wed not only the Arryns(after the conquest giving house Stark access to dragon blood but also the Griffin Kings) Sansa on her way down the mountain thinks that the Eyrie is a place for Griffins and Dragons in winter.(maybe a hint to Jon and bringing the Vale into the North's banner) Yet also these marriages make the Starks and different houses of the Vale distant cousins.

Last but not least is the marriage of a male house Stark with a lady of house Blackwood. Which if I'm right after the Dance with Dragon's Aegon III legitimized Alys River's son by Aemond Targayen. Why because the Blackwood's lost their young lord in the fighting and they were one of the first to flock to their banners. Now I know we don't know if she was a blackwood, but I'm going out on a limb. Aegon IV bedded a blackwood woman and it makes sense when you look at Bloodraven if he had Targ on both sides of his family tree, just makes him even more powerful also explains why he's so damn interested n in the Stark children. Along with him being intrumental in the marriage between house Stark and blackwood before he sent himself to the wall.

Why is this important? Gives Jon access to the Greenseer gene but also, through the intermarriages between Bracken and Blackwood, their good graces with horses. Jon's one of the finest horsemen in Winterfell he tells his uncle, that he rides as well as any man in the castle. Remember how he leaped one handed mind you on to the back of a saddless horse with a sword in the other and an arrow in his ass? Makes sense given his magical bloodlines. Then look at the Raven on his sholder all the time. Yeah connected to Bloodraven his cousin on both sides of the family but also so that men would know him.

Because of his stark heritage gives him a link to the Warg gene, Blackwood greendreams and also being related to the Hightowers(though Aemond) Now If i was a betting woman, I would think that part of the reason that Hightower stayed at the Tower of Joy was his blood through Ser Otto Hightower. Interesting thought. That also, might be why Whent being related to Tully whom might be related to Blackwood that he stayed as well.

Then look at this Dragon lineage. The Arryns, Baratheon,Martell and through Eleana Targaryen the Plumms of the west. Jon is literally related to the realm.

So if I was thinking that I needed a third dragon head, I would look for the woman with the most magical blood that there was. A woman that would connect their said child to the entire realm.

[Lady Woodland]

That;s an important distinction to make. He's not saying that the kid is the song of ice and fire but that that is his song [his mission?]. Those are two very distinct things. Also, when Dany is in the HOTU they tell her to "...drink from the cup of ice...drink from the cup of fire..." so perhaps the song is something you do, not something you are.

GRRM is not writing a series about a "one true hero" so why would he named the series after a character? Someone pointed out on another thread that Bloodraven could be the Song of Ice and Fire, he was born from a First Men / Targaryen union. Jon's parentage is not unique. I'm sure once we get the world book we'll see more First Men / Targaryen marriages.

I think that Maester Aemon's words work twofold. They are both a commentary on the male-centric nature of Westeros (and of the Targaryens for that matter) and also a commentary on our male-centric fantasy novel world and how it view's it's heroes which are for the most part male.You have all these very intelligent and well-read Targaryen men throughout the centuries reading and studying these prophecies and it never occurred to one of them that the prophesied hero they've all been waiting for could ever be a girl. A girl saving the world is not even a possibility to them. On the other hand you have our world where the fantasy genre is littered with male heroes and very few female ones. I think about how Dany fulfilled the prophesy by the end of the first book before we knew anything about the prophesy and yet here were are trying to find others to fit the prophesy because she's too "obvious". The worst part is that every alternative theory to fulfill the prophesy is a male, Jon, Jaime, Davos, Stannis, etc. Have you ever seen an AAR/TPTWP theory where the alternative was a girl?

I know we'll debate this until the end because GRRM has added ambiguity to it but I truly believe GRRM is playing with our expectations and habits as readers. The hero is usually a boy, so let's look for a boy even though we've already been told it's a girl. :dunno:

ETA

This makes a lot of sense DD, I totally agree with the first part, Just wondering to clarify, do you think Rhaegar himself thought about the prophecy in those terms, ie did he think it was about a deed not a person?

With regards to the second part I can see now why I didn't come to that conclusion with Dany, I hadn't really realised how much the Targs had changed, I thought that they really were fairly exceptional with their treatment of women/wives, given Aegon conquered the 7 Kingdom's with his two sisters, but when you think about it the refer to it as "Aegon's Conquest" not "The Targaryen Conquest" so yes that sit's better with me.

I still think Aemon knew who Jon is though - I believe he may have thought Jon's role at the Wall & with the Watch were more important than sitting on the IT though that's why his final days are confusing to me.

[DragonDreamer]

This makes a lot of sense DD, I totally agree with the first part, Just wondering to clarify, do you think Rhaegar himself thought about the prophecy in those terms, ie did he think it was about a deed not a person?

I think that if Rhaegar had thought the song was a person, he would have called the kid the song, you know. He would probably had said something like: "he is the song of ice and fire" instead he said "and his is the Song of ice and fire." I see that and it looks like he is saying, this youngum right here is the Prince and and the song of ice and fire is his mission.

With regards to the second part I can see now why I didn't come to that conclusion with Dany, I hadn't really realised how much the Targs had changed, I thought that they really were fairly exceptional with their treatment of women/wives, given Aegon conquered the 7 Kingdom's with his two sisters, but when you think about it the refer to it as "Aegon's Conquest" not "The Targaryen Conquest" so yes that sit's better with me.

I still think Aemon knew who Jon is though - I believe he may have thought Jon's role at the Wall & with the Watch were more important than sitting on the IT though that's why his final days are confusing to me.

A lot of people think that if Aemon had know Jon was Rhaeger little wee one he would have thought that Jon was the prince. But they forget that Aemon called Dany the prince because of the dragons. The dragons are the key. People who think Dany is a red herring when it comes to the prophecy are missing the point.

I dono if Aemon knew who Jon really was but I don't think it would have made a difference. If anything he would have though Jon would be one of the heads of the dragon.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

I think that if Rhaegar had thought the song was a person, he would have called the kid the song, you know. He would probably had said something like: "he is the song of ice and fire" instead he said "and his is the Song of ice and fire." I see that and it looks like he is saying, this youngum right here is the Prince and and the song of ice and fire is his mission.

:agree:

The song is not a person.