Suppose Robert and Rhaegar both die at the Trident

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

-Joffery is not the same as Aegon. Joffery was a monster being raised and controlled by other monsters. Viserys could have been fostered away from Aegon only to see each other once in a while. Jon Arryn could have stayed on as Aegon's regent he would have done well and made sure Aegon knew the whole story.

-Dany is trying to conquer Westeros because it was needlessly taken from her family, she would t need to conquer it if it wasn't taken from her anyways. Half of Dany's family was murdered that day and all of them were innocent except Aerys and it was done very brutally. She was also forced into exile through no fault of her own and assassins sent after her, Dany has had a tough life and even if the rebels were right to try to remove Aerys the other Targaryens didn't deserve death and exile she has every right to want the usurper and his dogs dead what was done to the Targaryens was in no way justified they didn't have to suffer because of Aerys or Rhaegar taking a girl but they did.

-Robert did not change he was always a coward, a whore, a violent loser, a drunk, and horrible person it just intensified because he was King and could practically do what he want and be loved. Jon and Ned knew exactly what kind of a man they gave that throne to and they have all suffered for it too.

Ok, lets try it out.

Go take your worst enemy, kill him and his family and then adopt his son and raise him as your own. Meanwhile you make him the highest authority in the land.

Give him seven fully armed and merciless guys that obey his every command to follow him around

Surround him with a court that marvels at everything he does and never tells him no

Lets see how it works out.

[Colonel Green]

Ok, lets try it out.

Go take your worst enemy, kill him and his family and then adopt his son and raise him as your own. Meanwhile you make him the highest authority in the land.

Give him seven fully armed and merciless guys that obey his every command to follow him around

Surround him with a court that marvels at everything he does and never tells him no

Lets see how it works out.

For one example of when that didn't go so great, consider that Edward II was murdered by his wife Isabelle and her lover Roger Mortimer, the latter becoming the effective ruler of England for a while. The younger Edward (III) certainly did not take this in stride, and after seizing control of the throne he had Mortimer executed and exiled his mother from court.

There were likewise judicial reprisals against the judges of Charles I when Charles II was restored to the throne.

[The Wolves]

Ok, lets try it out.

Go take your worst enemy, kill him and his family and then adopt his son and raise him as your own. Meanwhile you make him the highest authority in the land.

Give him seven fully armed and merciless guys that obey his every command to follow him around

Surround him with a court that marvels at everything he does and never tells him no

Lets see how it works out.

But wouldn't this depend on who and how Aegon was raised?

Do you think Jon who was raised by Ned and learns that Rhaegar was his father and knows how Aegon and Rhaenys died and Viserys/Dany exiled would all of a sudden want revenge?

Why tell me would Aegon or Jon or hell anybody want to start shit for 2 men they never met and only heard about through stories or convo.

Would you throw a country into chaos for 2 dead men who you never saw or talked too in your lifetime? It doesn't make sense to do stupid shit like that.

And Jon Arryn could have been a really good regent for Aegon with Elia and Oberyn there to help, he could have been a great King for Westeros, him starting a war for 2 men is not something that would have likely happened.

[Colonel Green]

But wouldn't this depend on who and how Aegon was raised?

Maybe, maybe not. The kid might, as he hears about his history, grow to resent the people raising him, and be persuaded that he's being lied to and that he should take revenge on behalf of his kin.

It doesn't make sense to do stupid shit like that.

That assumes that everyone is a rational actor, and the whole reason this situation started is because that isn't true.

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

But wouldn't this depend on who and how Aegon was raised?

Somewhat, but like you said about Robert "it just intensified because he was King and could practically do what he want and be loved"

Do you think Jon who was raised by Ned and learns that Rhaegar was his father and knows how Aegon and Rhaenys died and Viserys/Dany exiled would all of a sudden want revenge?

Maybe, who knows? The difference is that Jon is not King so what is he going to if he does want revenge. And he was not raised on the Throne and had his every whim obeyed

Why tell me would Aegon or Jon or hell anybody want to start shit for 2 men they never met and only heard about through stories or convo.

Same reason Daenerys wants to

Would you throw a country into chaos for 2 dead men who you never saw or talked too in your lifetime? It doesn't make sense to do stupid shit like that.

Men do that all the time, Litarly half of the history of Westeros starts exactly like that

And Jon Arryn could have been a really good regent for Aegon with Elia and Oberyn there to help, he could have been a great King for Westeros, him starting a war for 2 men is not something that would have likely happened.

That is assuming that they were still alive (Tywin didnt have any of them killed), and why would they let Dorne any where near the King you are trying tpo puppet?

[Pod The Impaler]

I don´t think Stannis would have been made king. Neither Renly for that matter.

What is the rebels next move? Jon Arryn or Ned Stark as the next king? Or do they somehow try to negotiate with the mad king, maybe Jon or Ned fostering Aegon?

My excuses if the topic is old. I didn´t find it on a search.

The rebels press on, led by Jon Arryn and Eddard Stark, because it is Aerys who most of all must be destroyed.

Robert being dead does not change the outcome in terms of the Targaryens losing the war - Rhaegar's death was the de facto moment they lost, because the king was mad the crown prince was the hope of the regime.

As the rebels pressed on, the Lannisters would still likely have sacked King's Landing. To say Tywin did what he did to prove loyalty to Robert is only a half-truth; it was done to prove they had broken with the old regime completely. The rebels without Robert are still going to slaughter Aerys at the very least.

I think the biggest change would be in the aftermath of the sack.

If Elia and her children still died, the Lannisters would not be absolved of it, because that was done by King Robert, who of course married a Lannister to shore up his new regime.

The people it affects the most are Viserys, Dany (yet to be born), and Jon Snow (assuming R+L=J).

The rebels would have no easy figurehead. Jon Arryn might be the man who politically could unite the realm, but not necessarily be the next king. Tywin Lannister might be interested in taking power, but I do not think he would be able to do so, since the royalists would dislike him, and the other rebels distrust him.

Eddard Stark has just married Hoster Tully's eldest daughter, so there might be some chance of building a new power base between North, Riverlands, and Vale, but a large portion of the realm would be averse to being ruled by some northern pagan (no matter how benevolent or honourable he is), and Eddard himself & the North may prefer to return to how things were before Argon the Conqueror made the different kingdoms bend the knee. (No dragons, no unity.) Much as he might be the best leader, he would not be a likely choice, at least not for the Iron Throne.

So, with this looming separation in mind, the choice may come down to Aerys' other son Viserys being taken to the North as a ward, to guarantee no retaliation for his father and brother's downfall.

With Robert dead, it may be possible to acknowledge Jon Snow as the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar. If that is the case, the infant Jon may be legitimized and then become king - but it may also mean he is raised in the North instead of Viserys, opening up all sorts of intrigue. And it's anyone's guess what would become of Dany (would her mother Rhaella even have died if she could return from Dragonstone ?)

Jon Arryn becomes Hand, and the surviving Targaryen children end up as wards until they come of age.

[The Wolves]

^ Who in Westeros is waring because of people they have never met?

I think Aegon would and should have been content to keep what is rightfully his by right(the Iron Throne)and have his mother and sister alive with his uncle and aunt.

And the remaining Targs want their throne back and yes they are bitter, who wouldn't be when the babies in their family was brutalized and the women were raped with her child's brains all around her?

And why wouldn't the Dornish be around? Aegon is half Dornish he wouldn't be a hostage he would be a baby/child his mother and her family would get some say in raising him or contact because it would cause tension with Dorne unnecessarily.

[Colonel Green]

and Eddard himself & the North may prefer to return to how things were before Argon the Conqueror made the different kingdoms bend the knee. (No dragons, no unity.)

So, with this looming separation in mind

"Northern separatism" was an idea the Greatjon pulled out to resolve a particular succession problem with the Baratheons. There's never been any indication that Ned favoured it, or that there was any mass movement for it before that moment (which a lot of things had to happen to produce).

The Targaryens would not have been retained on the throne after the rebellion. It is simply not safe for the victors, who do not have any meaningful incentive to do that. They would have installed one of their own as king.

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

^

Who in Westeros is waring because of people they have never met?

Why only Westeros? Daenerys is from Westeros and she is fighting for people she has never met.

I think Aegon would and should have been content to keep what is rightfully his by right(the Iron Throne)and have his mother and sister alive with his uncle and aunt.

Aegon died in the books but you know enough about his character that you think he would act a certain way? I dont have have a clue what whould happen, but neither do the rebels and that is exactly why they wouldnt risk putting a Targaryen back on the Throne.

And the remaining Targs want their throne back and yes they are bitter, who wouldn't be when the babies in their family was brutalized and the women were raped with her child's brains all around her?

You mean like Aegon's Father and Grandfather?

And why wouldn't the Dornish be around? Aegon is half Dornish he wouldn't be a hostage he would be a baby/child his mother and her family would get some say in raising him or contact because it would cause tension with Dorne unnecessarily.

They were also on the losing side of the war. Also, rule number one of raising your enemy's kid and being a puppet master is limilting contact with people that have an opposing view to yours.

Elia simply whispers into Aegon's ear when he is 16 "That guy murdered your father, my husband, and now walks around here like he is the King. But you are the King my sweet child. Why do we need him?" and you are done for.

[Luthien Targaryen]

All hail King Tywin Lannister, who would probably have taken the Iron Throne for himself or Jaime had Ned Stark not intervened...Jaime and Cersei can marry and have kids because it worked for the Targaryens, I'm just hoping Jaime outlives Joffrey. Oh and yes, i expect a war with Dorne at least, if not also the Ironborn and the North. Little Viserys and Daenerys die in their beds. Nobody lives happily ever after.

[Pod The Impaler]

"Northern separatism" was an idea the Greatjon pulled out to resolve a particular succession problem with the Baratheons. There's never been any indication that Ned favoured it, or that there was any mass movement for it before that moment (which a lot of things had to happen to produce).

The North bent the knee to the dragons, and so long as Targaryen dynasty's rule held. Remove that, and the North's loyalty to the Iron Throne stands on nothing much. Eddard was loyal because Robert was his close friend, and when the head of House Starks says the North shall be loyal, it shall. They might do likewise if Jon Arryn had been named as king. However, you wouldn't find the North willing to swear fealty to a Martell, or a Tyrell, and especially not a Lannister. The connections they had with their Tully, Baratheon, and Arryn allies was basically a personal one, through Ned.

The actual question here is whether Eddard Stark himself would choose to be king upon the Iron Throne, and he is not a man with such ambitions. Others such as Jaime and Cersei and Littlefinger consider that when Ned matched into King's Landing, leading the rebel army, he could have taken the throne if he wanted it. They cannot understand why he did not - they viewed his rejection of power as foolish.

So if Eddard marches into that throne room with Jaime cleaning Aerys' blood off his blade, but Robert is dead, does Eddard take the throne? I doubt it. If he did want a throne, I think he would want the traditional Stark throne, not kingship over the Andals and Rhoynar and Ironborn etc. He'd have to think that it was best for the realm, and it would take much convincing.

[Pod The Impaler]

All hail King Tywin Lannister, who would probably have taken the Iron Throne for himself or Jaime had Ned Stark not intervened...Jaime and Cersei can marry and have kids because it worked for the Targaryens, I'm just hoping Jaime outlives Joffrey. Oh and yes, i expect a war with Dorne at least, if not also the Ironborn and the North. Little Viserys and Daenerys die in their beds. Nobody lives happily ever after.

Tywin would not succeed. Dorne would hate him, the Tyrells were staunchly pro-targaryen and would consider him a turncloak (more than the other rebels). The other rebels would view him as having contributed nothing for their cause that they could not have won themselves. The Ironborn would hope for his downfall so they could swoop in and enjoy the spoils.

Tywin's one card was slaughtering the Targaryen children, which worked as a personal appeal to Robert's anger. His other asset was his daughter Cersei, to be given to someone in marriage. But if Robert was dead, then who could it be? I think at that point none of the rebel leaders were single.

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

Tywin would not succeed. Dorne would hate him, the Tyrells were staunchly pro-targaryen and would consider him a turncloak (more than the other rebels). The other rebels would view him as having contributed nothing for their cause that they could not have won themselves. The Ironborn would hope for his downfall so they could swoop in and enjoy the spoils.

Tywin's one card was slaughtering the Targaryen children, which worked as a personal appeal to Robert's anger. His other asset was his daughter Cersei, to be given to someone in marriage. But if Robert was dead, then who could it be? I think at that point none of the rebel leaders were single.

If Hoster Tully took the Throne, Tywin could marry Cersie to Crown Prince Edmure

[Colonel Green]

The actual question here is whether Eddard Stark himself would choose to be king upon the Iron Throne, and he is not a man with such ambitions. Others such as Jaime and Cersei and Littlefinger consider that when Ned matched into King's Landing, leading the rebel army, he could have taken the throne if he wanted it. They cannot understand why he did not - they viewed his rejection of power as foolish.

So if Eddard marches into that throne room with Jaime cleaning Aerys' blood off his blade, but Robert is dead, does Eddard take the throne? I doubt it. If he did want a throne, I think he would want the traditional Stark throne, not kingship over the Andals and Rhoynar and Ironborn etc. He'd have to think that it was best for the realm, and it would take much convincing.

They had already agreed that Robert would be king when Ned went to King's Landing, hence, there was no reason for Ned to declare himself king.

I agree that he didn't especially want it, but having overthrown the Targaryen dynasty, there needed to be a new king, and the election would most likely have fallen on him, given the circumstances (Jon Arryn, if he had a male heir at that moment, might otherwise have been the better candidate, but he didn't, so that's a moot point).

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

They had already agreed that Robert would be king when Ned went to King's Landing, hence, there was no reason for Ned to declare himself king.

I agree that he didn't especially want it, but having overthrown the Targaryen dynasty, there needed to be a new king, and the election would most likely have fallen on him, given the circumstances (Jon Arryn, if he had a male heir at that moment, might otherwise have been the better candidate, but he didn't, so that's a moot point).

Over looking Hoster Tully. Tully being King solves every problem.

Jon Arryn doesnt have to worry about an Heir for the Vale.

Jon can become Hand of the King

Ned can stay in the North

Edmure can marry Cersie

And a Tully King makes both Cat and Lysa Princesses and raises the esteem of both the Stark and Arryn houses,

[Colonel Green]

Over looking Hoster Tully.

Latecomer to the rebellion, and so unlikely to be a candidate for the throne, whatever his family ties.

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

Latecomer to the rebellion, and so unlikely to be a candidate for the throne, whatever his family ties.

Latecomer? His daughters are married to Ned and Jon. Hoster was with the Rebels from day one.

In fact there is evidence that Hoster, Jon and Rickard were in the Rebellion way before it actually started.

[Tantan]

Dany isn't fighting for the people that she hasn't met; she's fighting for the idea or the myth of the people that she hasn't met. Vis was just young enough to view his brother and father as heroes fighting against barbarians and not consider any of the legitimate causes for the conflict - an idea that has not been discouraged by Illyrio and Varys. If infant Dany was fostered in Winerfell, the Eyrie, or under one of the other more level-headed rebel leaders then she would never be a walking revenge plot. She would be suitably brainwashed.

I think Dany needs to stick around because she needs to be married into the new royal family (Tully is such a great idea) to give it more legitimacy. Edmure and Dany would ensure unity under a dragon descendent.

That said, I doubt Hoster could take the throne in a dynastic way. The only way he would get it in the first place is the same way the thread came to that conclusion: as a compromise candidate via Great Council of Lords Paramount - which essentially means we are dealing with an elective monarchy and no guarantee Edmure takes the throne next. Could mean civil war every time a king dies.

[Queen Ayras Lord Commander]

Hoster would want Jon to be king.

[UnFit Finlay]

Who in Westeros is waring because of people they have never met?

Why only Westeros? Daenerys is from Westeros and she is fighting for people she has never met.

I think Aegon would and should have been content to keep what is rightfully his by right(the Iron Throne)and have his mother and sister alive with his uncle and aunt.

Aegon died in the books but you know enough about his character that you think he would act a certain way? I dont have have a clue what whould happen, but neither do the rebels and that is exactly why they wouldnt risk putting a Targaryen back on the Throne.

And the remaining Targs want their throne back and yes they are bitter, who wouldn't be when the babies in their family was brutalized and the women were raped with her child's brains all around her?

You mean like Aegon's Father and Grandfather?

And why wouldn't the Dornish be around? Aegon is half Dornish he wouldn't be a hostage he would be a baby/child his mother and her family would get some say in raising him or contact because it would cause tension with Dorne unnecessarily.

They were also on the losing side of the war. Also, rule number one of raising your enemy's kid and being a puppet master is limilting contact with people that have an opposing view to yours.

Elia simply whispers into Aegon's ear when he is 16 "That guy murdered your father, my husband, and now walks around here like he is the King. But you are the King my sweet child. Why do we need him?" and you are done for.

(1) Dany has a totally distorted view of what happened to her family and even now doesn't know the whole truth about her father. This is because she was raised by Viserys, who was eight when they went into exile. Had she been raised in a safe environment in Westeros and properly educated on what really happened, while her nephew sat on the Throne, she'd be unlikely to feel the same way.

I should add that Aegon, who certainly believes that he's real, doesn't appear to be motivated by revenge. He wants his Throne because he believes it's his by rights and because it is best for the realm, because that's how Jon Connington has raised him. Why would he be any different if he was raised by Hoster Tully or Ned Stark?

(2) Yes, that's why the Rebels prefered Robert on the Throne. We're talking about a scenario where Robert wasn't option though and Aegon, a baby that could be raised and moulded to be the perfect King would've been the next best option. He was also Aerys legitimate heir at that point so questions there'd be no question of the legitimacy of his claim.

(3) Are you seriously suggesting that Rhaegar's death in battle or Aerys being murdered when he was trying to commit mass murder is in any way comparable to the brutal and completely unnecessary murders of Elia and her children?

No, really?

(4) The Dornish had no option but to fight for Aerys, since he held Elia as a hostage. Given that she was at court, Elia would know first hand just how bad Aerys madness was and that he had to be removed. The last thing she'd want is her child turning out the same way. She might be more kindly to Rhaegar, she did love him apparently, but Doran and Oberyn would be much less forgiving.

I'd also say that you are slightly over-estimating the actual power of the King. Yes, Joffrey ordered the Kingsguard to beat Sansa and they obeyed, because she was the daughter of a traitor. If he'd ordered them to kill TYWIN it would've been a far different matter. Especially if there was already a precedent set by the removal of Aerys.