Robbs Remains

[Red Wedding Cake]

I think I remember Wyman Manderly commenting to Davos that the Frey's were seriously trying to pass Robb off as a half wolf monster that attacked them and they had to put down, and that they kept the body with Greywind's head still attached to Robb's body as crude pseudoproof that it happened. Whenever that part was in A Dance With Dragons.

So the Frey's might keep the bones as a trophy of killing the monster of the north. They wouldn't necessarily dump it into the river like they did with Catlyn.

[Blazfemur]

You really think Robb deserved to be murdered while at a wedding for breaking his marriage contract? Even by Westerosi standards that was considered a wildly inappropriate reaction on the part of Walder Frey that earned him and his family universal scorn.

Seriously?

Cause all Robb did was break an agreement his life was worth more than that?

Why would anyone think that that is okay to minimize the worth of a human life because of a broken contract?

sorry for the late reply.

Robb usurped the crown, and attempted to bring the Freys into it (by letting Robb cross, the Freys became subject to treason). Walder knew this, and struck up a contract. Robb did tell Catelyn "do whatever it takes." And so she did. A contract was made. Robb crossed, and Walder Frey allowed him to.

Robb broke contract, yet he was already a usurper and a traitor to the crown. Walder Frey (at that point), of course would side with Tywin, he had an out for treason.

No, Robb decided to play war, and broke contract. Catelyn was an innocent victim -- Robb, was not. He knewthe terms and conditions - dont get pissed at the guy that allowedyou to cross after you break contract, there are consequences.

[The Wolves]

sorry for the late reply.

Robb usurped the crown, and attempted to bring the Freys into it (by letting Robb cross, the Freys became subject to treason). Walder knew this, and struck up a contract. Robb did tell Catelyn "do whatever it takes." And so she did. A contract was made. Robb crossed, and Walder Frey allowed him to.

Robb broke contract, yet he was already a usurper and a traitor to the crown. Walder Frey (at that point), of course would side with Tywin, he had an out for treason.

No, Robb decided to play war, and broke contract. Catelyn was an innocent victim -- Robb, was not. He knewthe terms and conditions - dont get pissed at the guy that allowedyou to cross after you break contract, there are consequences.

Robb usurped no crown he had every right to be King in the North his ancestors have held that title for thousands of years compared to the 10 plus years the usurping Baratheons/Lannisteds have held theirs.

And yes Robb did break contract but it's about how the Freys sat lied to his face and lured him to his death, that's not a consequence that's deceit and treachery.

And Robb dying is not a consequence for breaking a marriage contract, that's bullshit if I have ever heard any.

And no it's not Robb's fault that Frey is a greedy monster, he didn't have to throw in with Robb he could have saved his family and stayed out of the war, Robb never asked them to get involved the Freys did it all on their own. All Walder had to do was let Robb cross he didn't ask them to fight or die for him they did that all on their own.

[Blazfemur]

Robb usurped no crown he had every right to be King in the North his ancestors have held that title for thousands of years compared to the 10 plus years the usurping Baratheons/Lannisteds have held theirs.

And yes Robb did break contract but it's about how the Freys sat lied to his face and lured him to his death, that's not a consequence that's deceit and treachery.

And Robb dying is not a consequence for breaking a marriage contract, that's bullshit if I have ever heard any.

And no it's not Robb's fault that Frey is a greedy monster, he didn't have to throw in with Robb he could have saved his family and stayed out of the war, Robb never asked them to get involved the Freys did it all on their own. All Walder had to do was let Robb cross he didn't ask them to fight or die for him they did that all on their own.

youre kidding me, right? Robb usurped the crown in king's landing -- theres only one king, and at that time, it was Joffrey. To claim king in the north, is usurping the one true crown.

Walder Frey did NOT lie when the contract was struck. He committed treason to the one crown by letting a usurper pass.

By committing treason, the freys were subject to death, tywin offered him an out, and that was the plan disguised as a wedding. (i.e. "do this for me, and we'll forget that you helped further the cause of the usurper robb stark")

robb knew what he was getting into -- and did so anyway.

walder and robb reached an agreement. robb took his end, and then didnt fulfill his side. tywin wrote to walder, walder was already slighted, and sided with tywin. walder looks good in the eyes of the crown, and killed the opposition in the process. all is even.

[Robb_Warged]

The most extravagent and depraved display of murder and blasphemy of holy rules held by those in Westoros, done by the Frey's, is not equatable to the mistake Robb made when breaking his wedding contract

Robb deserved punishment. The Frey's went overboard. The Frey's aren't perfect either. Whose to say Robb insulting them with his bad decision wasn't retribution for nonsense the Frey's have pulled in the past? The Starks are always taken advantage of. The Frey's can put up with being taken advantage of too. You really think the Frey's have never slighted any houses? The Red Wedding and Robb's marriage contrace breach aren't of the same value

What became of Robb's remains? That is a very interesting question isn't it? Why is it that Robb's remains and Greywind's death are never given an eye witness view to the readers? We see what happens to the remains of other characters (Sansa sees her father's head, Arya pulls out her dead mother from the river, etc, etc) but the void of an eye witness view of Grey Wind's death and Robb's remains is suspect after considering the teasing of life after death GRRM gives to characters like the Hound with the gravedigger stuff on quiet isle

The reader was told that Daavos was dead. Head and hands cut off and mounted with an onion in his mouth. The reader was told that. The reader never sees it and it turns out to be a lie

A tale the Frey's pass around is that Robb turned into a wolf and attacked them. Hmmmmm....... Hmmmmmmmm......

Robb is returning. Get ready for books 6 and 7. A time for wolves. Winter is here. The King in The North

[The Wolves]

youre kidding me, right? Robb usurped the crown in king's landing -- theres only one king, and at that time, it was Joffrey. To claim king in the north, is usurping the one true crown.

Walder Frey did NOT lie when the contract was struck. He committed treason to the one crown by letting a usurper pass.

By committing treason, the freys were subject to death, tywin offered him an out, and that was the plan disguised as a wedding. (i.e. "do this for me, and we'll forget that you helped further the cause of the usurper robb stark")

robb knew what he was getting into -- and did so anyway.

walder and robb reached an agreement. robb took his end, and then didnt fulfill his side. tywin wrote to walder, walder was already slighted, and sided with tywin. walder looks good in the eyes of the crown,and killed the opposition in the process. all is even.

No I'm not kidding Robb usurped no crown when 1. The crown of Westeros belongs to the Targaryens the Baratheons/Lannisters are all usurpers. 2. The North by right is the Starks, the Lannisters tried contrasting that claim by saying Joffery an inbreed monstrous freak was King but he wasn't.

Walder did lie to Robb about forgiving him for breaking his marriage contract when Robb tried to make amends.

Again the Freys gladly came into the war that is not Robb's fault at all, they could and should have stayed out of it. It's not Robb fault they wanted to latch themselves onto every great and small house in Westeros.

No Robb did not know that while he was trying to find some ways to make up for breaking the marriage contract the Freys were planning on breaking a very sacred unwritten law. Who could see the Freys committing a taboo act of violating guest right of killing thousands because Robb did not marry a Frey, no one especially Robb saw that coming.

And to the bolded no Walder doesn't look good the crown is actively trying to distance themselves away from such a violent, unholy act.

Again I don't get how anybody could sanely argue that Robb dying was a reasonable consequence for breaking his marriage contract. Robb's punishment did not fit his crime at all.

[Blazfemur]

1) No I'm not kidding Robb usurped no crown when 1. The crown of Westeros belongs to the Targaryens the Baratheons/Lannisters are all usurpers. 2. The North by right is the Starks, the Lannisters tried contrasting that claim by saying Joffery an inbreed monstrous freak was King but he wasn't.

2) Walder did lie to Robb about forgiving him for breaking his marriage contract when Robb tried to make amends.

3) Again the Freys gladly came into the war that is not Robb's fault at all, they could and should have stayed out of it. It's not Robb fault they wanted to latch themselves onto every great and small house in Westeros.

4) No Robb did not know that while he was trying to find some ways to make up for breaking the marriage contract the Freys were planning on breaking a very sacred unwritten law. Who could see the Freys committing a taboo act of violating guest right of killing thousands because Robb did not marry a Frey, no one especially Robb saw that coming.

5) And to the bolded no Walder doesn't look good the crown is actively trying to distance themselves away from such a violent, unholy act.

6) Again I don't get how anybody could sanely argue that Robb dying was a reasonable consequence for breaking his marriage contract. Robb's punishment did not fit his crime at all.

1) the north, alllllllll the way to the wall (the wall is debatable to include), belongs to the crown. this includes all in the north below the wall. they belong to kings landing

2) this was after robb broke contract. walder did NOT lie while striking contract.

3) they couldnt stay out of it, BECAUSE ROBB BROUGHT THEM INTO IT WHEN HE ASKED TO CROSS

4) alas, a brilliantly written turn of events that puts walder frey back on good terms with the crown ALREADY in office

5) on the surface, of course the lannisters wouldnt condone it, but tywin was the one that WROTE the plan ("some wars won with swords, others with letters")

6) The combination of robb forcing walder frey out of compliance with the crown, then breaking contract, then tywin offering walder terms to get back into compliance, all spells disaster for the Oathbreaker-King

[Hodor's Dragon]

It would be pretty shocking if the Lords of Winterfell who swore fealty to the Iron Throne didn't swear something about fealty for all generations to come. Something that made it perfectly unambiguous that their claim to King in the North was renounced forever. And I'm sure it was set up so that those oaths legally bound every subsequent Lord of Winterfell. You couldn't have every new lord paramount deciding on his own whether or not to reclaim the old crown. I don't think Torrhen the Kneeler's surrender would've been accepted under such a circumstance.

So yeah, Robb usurped a throne. Not that I'm particularly blaming him, but I don't think you can claim that what he did was legal.

[The Wolves]

1) the north, alllllllll the way to the wall (the wall is debatable to include), belongs to the crown. this includes all in the north below the wall. they belong to kings landing

2) this was after robb broke contract. walder did NOT lie while striking contract.

3) they couldnt stay out of it, BECAUSE ROBB BROUGHT THEM INTO IT WHEN HE ASKED TO CROSS

4) alas, a brilliantly written turn of events that puts walder frey back on good terms with the crown ALREADY in office

5) on the surface, of course the lannisters wouldnt condone it, but tywin was the one that WROTE the plan ("some wars won with swords, others with letters")

6) The combination of robb forcing walder frey out of compliance with the crown, then breaking contract, then tywin offering walder terms to get back into compliance, all spells disaster for the Oathbreaker-King

We keep going round and round on this subject so I will say what I have to say and stop.

3. The Freys were already in it when they killed Lannister scouts on their land, that happened way before Robb wanted to cross the bridge. And all Walder had to do was open the bridge and when asked by the Lannisters he could have lied and said Robb threatened to besiege his lands, Tywin would have been very forgiving. Walder did not have to fight(honestly he should have kept out of it)

I don't want to argue the other points

But I'm not saying Robb didn't break contract with Frey and that Walder didn't have a legit grievance, Robb should have had consequences. But I don't agree that him getting killed under violation of guest right is or should be a consequence. Again Robb's punishment did not fit his crime and it was an unnecessary crime that in the long run would have benefited no one.

[Blazfemur]

We keep going round and round on this subject so I will say what I have to say and stop.

3. The Freys were already in it when they killed Lannister scouts on their land, that happened way before Robb wanted to cross the bridge. And all Walder had to do was open the bridge and when asked by the Lannisters he could have lied and said Robb threatened to besiege his lands, Tywin would have been very forgiving. Walder did not have to fight(honestly he should have kept out of it)

I don't want to argue the other points

But I'm not saying Robb didn't break contract with Frey and that Walder didn't have a legit grievance, Robb should have had consequences. But I don't agree that him getting killed under violation of guest right is or should be a consequence. Again Robb's punishment did not fit his crime and it was an unnecessary crime that in the long run would have benefited no one.

unfortunately, it is pointless, and it's furthermore not even on topic.

robb's consequences weren't determined by walder frey, is all im saying. it was more than likely tywins suggestion, no, order, that walder do this to get back into compliance with the crown.