High Septon = Howland Reed 3.0

[JonSnow4President]

Dude, it was obviously collective punishment. How can you possibly argue otherwise? The whole reason the KotLT targeted those Knights was because of the behavior of their squires. How can you argue this is not the case?

And this is true no matter who you believe the KotLT is.

I argue defeating someone in a joust is NEVER punishment. Kind of like how the Broncos just picking off Andrew Luck isn't punishment.

If you do want to argue they're being punished, then they're being punished for being poor teachers of honor to their squires. I don't think we need to go there because I don't think they're being punished at all, but I think calling that thread proof positive of Reed's acceptance of collective punishment is every bit the stretch that's filled the last 52 or so pages.

[Antler's Fury]

Whilst you have a very confident view of your own posts, I don't agree with your self-assessment. Many of your posts just ask for others to speculate "what about this?" and "what about that?" Whilst I enjoy speculating where theories can take us as much as the next person, questions like that serve no purpose because they don't challenge the theory itself, just people's imagination for story building. Knock yourself out and spend ages posting them if you want, but askng for speculation is not an effective challenge.

Questioning a theory is indeed challenging a theory. I question this theory because it makes no sense.

Already discussed - twice, in fact. Just because you prefer a different interpretation because you are clearly partisan towards Cersei, does not make your interpretation more logical than mine. By my view, I find your bias illogical. We have to agree to differ on that.

I am not partisan towards Cersei, I just don't see any reason why Howland would view her as more guilty than Tywin, Joffrey, or any other Lannister who has done more to hurt the Starks. Indeed, you have yet to explain why he would see her as more guilty than other, more obviously guilty Lannisters and punish her when he could have punished Joffrey or Tywin instead.

So, you set up this quibbling, raise the same quibbles over and over, and then criticise the quibbling stating that such quibbling undermines the OP. I think we've got the measure of your tactics now.

I did not set up the quibbling. It is the OP that is based on quibbling about eye color, hairstyle, axes, and other trivial details, and insisting that they have symbolic meaning. I am criticizing this because it is illogical.

You're pulling my leg now, aren't you? The whole theory is that there is an unrevealed infiltration by one or more Northmen, and your refutation is that such infiltration hasn't been revealed. *head-desk*

No, my refutation is that there is almost no evidence of such an infiltration. If this supposed infiltration is a plot point, there should be some clues for the readers to pick up, even if the characters don't. The OP provides almost no evidence that this is the case.

Btw, do you have text to back up your claim of evidence that any member of the current Faith Militant is hostile specifically to Jon? Please quote it.

The Faith sees bastards and polygamists as sinful, and Jon is either a bastard or born of a polygamous marriage. As such, there is no reason for an order as zealous as the Faith Militant to support his rise to any position of power, be it KitN, the IT, or what have you.

We have canon evidence that he is devoted to the Starks.

...who have repeatedly been on the receiving end of collective punishment, which would suggest that Howland would not be willing to engage in it. While we are on the subject of canon evidence, we have canon evidence that he is in the Neck, like the fact that Robb sent him a letter there and that Galbart and Maege were sent to see him there.

You really think he is sitting around in GW without a plan to avenge and mobilize, other than directing some archers with poison arrows and telling them when to eat and sleep?

That he sent his kids off to a suicide mission, knowing Winter is Coming, without a thought about eliminating the stumbling blocks preventing a mass mobilization towards the threat beyond the Wall?

And what stumbling blocks is he eliminating exactly? You argue that he wants to weaken the IT, but that is the one thing that has consistently enabled continent-wide mobilization.

If HR is the HS, he's done a damned good job putting himself in a position of extreme power.

...that has nothing whatsoever to do with the Others. Instead, Howland is wasting his time on puritanical religious reform. Again, more evidence that the High Sparrow is not Howland Reed and does not care at all about the Others.

The KotLT challenged and defeated Heigh Blount and Frey who were guilty by association.

Even if we assume that this constitutes collective punishment, so what? Do you have any evidence that Howland is the kind of person who would engage in collective punishment merely because it was used to avenge an insult to him years ago? Furthermore, KotLT did not resort to measures as drastic as those used by the High Sparrow, like torture.

[WeaselPie]

I argue defeating someone in a joust is NEVER punishment. Kind of like how the Broncos just picking off Andrew Luck isn't punishment.

If you do want to argue they're being punished, then they're being punished for being poor teachers of honor to their squires. I don't think we need to go there because I don't think they're being punished at all, but I think calling that thread proof positive of Reed's acceptance of collective punishment is every bit the stretch that's filled the last 52 or so pages.

Yet, it was punishment and it was intended as punishment. Even if they're being punished as poor teachers. Guilt by association.

So we agree.

Not sure why you have to twist it simply because you don't think the High Sparrow could be Howland.

[willofDorne]

I argue defeating someone in a joust is NEVER punishment. Kind of like how the Broncos just picking off Andrew Luck isn't punishment.

If you do want to argue they're being punished, then they're being punished for being poor teachers of honor to their squires. I don't think we need to go there because I don't think they're being punished at all, but I think calling that thread proof positive of Reed's acceptance of collective punishment is every bit the stretch that's filled the last 52 or so pages.

That's because you don't understand how the tournament works. If he was able to knock on their shields, then they had already won the right to be champions and defend the maiden's honor. If this KotLT then defeats them, they are out of the tournament, forever. No more collecting ransoms, no more glory, no more honor, etc. Then to be chastised in front of a crowd as well is just insult to injury. That's punishment. Once they lost, they were eliminated from the tournament.

[WeaselPie]

We also have canon evidence that he's in the Neck, like the fact that Robb sent him a letter there and that Galbart and Maege were sent to see him there.

Not since GoT when the shite hit the fan.

[JonSnow4President]

That's because you don't understand how the tournament works. If he was able to knock on their shields, then they had already won the right to be champions and defend the maiden's honor. If this KotLT then defeats them, they are out of the tournament, forever. No more collecting ransoms, no more glory, no more honor, etc. Then to be chastised in front of a crowd as well is just insult to injury. That's punishment. Once they lost, they were eliminated from the tournament.

If you insist, then fine. They are being "punished" for not teaching their squires honor. That is the only thing they're chastised for. The KoLT doesn't charge them with the actual beating of the crannogman.

[WeaselPie]

If you insist, then fine. They are being "punished" for not teaching their squires honor. That is the only thing they're chastised for. The KoLT doesn't charge them with the actual beating of the crannogman.

Wow... not sure if you read that statement before you posted it.

The KotLT chastises the knights because of the charge against the squires... again, not sure we're reading the same books.

And pretty sure if this thread was a different topic, you would agree the the KotLT challenged the Knights because of their squires treatment of Howland.

How you can separate that, I can't even.

[JonSnow4President]

Wow... not sure if you read that statement before you posted it.

Pretty sure I did. I'd rather you say exactly what you have a problem with instead of seeming to passively insult my intelligence because we have a difference of opinion.

Edit: And if you're argument coming is that that's just a weaselly (is that a word) way of wording it, one of the high-level purposes of being a squire is learning how to be a proper knight. Firing a teacher for her student's consistent low test scores isn't collective punishment. It's punishing the teacher for not doing his/her job.

[Antler's Fury]

Not since GoT when the shite hit the fan.

No, Maege and Galbart were charged with going to see Howland in ASOS. Do you have any evidence that Howland has moved since then? So far you have acted as though it is utterly ridiculous for him to be staying in the Neck and insist that he must have some knowledge of the Others and must be preparing to unite the continent and prepare for their arrival, all based on zero evidence.

[WeaselPie]

Pretty sure I did. I'd rather you say exactly what you have a problem with instead of seeming to passively insult my intelligence because we have a difference of opinion.

Edit: And if you're argument coming is that that's just a weaselly (is that a word) way of wording it, one of the high-level purposes of being a squire is learning how to be a proper knight. Firing a teacher for her student's consistent low test scores isn't collective punishment. It's punishing the teacher for not doing his/her job.

Welp. Alright then. You're asserting the the KotLT did not target Blount Haigh or Frey because their squires bullied Howland

[JonSnow4President]

Welp. Alright then. You're asserting the the KotLT did not target Blount Haigh or Frey because their squires bullied Howland

No, I'm ****ing asserting that the KoLT targeted them because they were poor teachers, if you're intent on calling targeting them in the tournament as punishment. Ultimate cause and effect? Yes, they were targeted because their squires bullied Howland. The same way the hypothetical teacher is fired because his/her students weren't prepared for a test.

[WeaselPie]

No, Maege and Galbart were charged with going to see Howland in ASOS. Do you have any evidence that Howland has moved since then? So far you have acted as though it is utterly ridiculous for him to be staying in the Neck and insist that he must have some knowledge of the Others and must be preparing to unite the continent and prepare for their arrival, all based on zero evidence.

And Robb sent word to Howland in AGoT to defend the Neck against the Lannisters.

So the first canon text we have about contact with Howland is in AGoT, with no response..

And are you kidding me? Howland is the most anticipated and missing character in the entire series! Of COURSE we don't KNOW he is in the Neck.

[WeaselPie]

No, I'm ****ing asserting that the KoLT targeted them because they were poor teachers, if you're intent on calling targeting them in the tournament as punishment. Ultimate cause and effect? Yes, they were targeted because their squires bullied Howland. The same way the hypothetical teacher is fired because his/her students weren't prepared for a test.

And how were they assessed as poor teachers? Hmm?

headshake, maybe you shouldn't try to stretch this, pretty sure I could dig up you talking about the motivations of the KotLT

[Antler's Fury]

And Robb sent word to Howland in AGoT to defend the Neck against the Lannisters.

So the first canon text we have about contact with Howland is in AGoT, with no response..

No, Robb sent word in ASOS.

And are you kidding me? Howland is the most anticipated and missing character in the entire series! Of COURSE we don't KNOW he is in the Neck.

The fact that he hasn't shown up yet doesn't mean he isn't where the books say he is: the Neck.

[JonSnow4President]

And how were they assessed as poor teachers? Hmm?

headshake, maybe you shouldn't try to stretch this, pretty sure I could dig up you talking about the motivations of the KotLT

See, we have a fundamental difference of opinion. You're calling firing the teacher collective punishment for his/her students failure, which I clearly think is :bs: . Even though the student's failure is the basis for the assessment, the punishment is still based on the teacher's failure.

[WeaselPie]

No, Robb sent word in ASOS.

The fact that he hasn't shown up yet doesn't mean he isn't where the books say he is: the Neck.

No, Robb sent word in one of Cat's AGoT chapters to Howland to make the Lannisters bleed f they march up the Neck.

The book NEVER says he is in the Neck. What part of that is so incomprehensible to you?

[WeaselPie]

See, we have a fundamental difference of opinion. You're calling firing the teacher collective punishment for his/her students failure, which I clearly think is :bs: . Even though the student's failure is the basis for the assessment, the punishment is still based on the teacher's failure.

I'll ask you one more question. What motivated the KotLT to challenge Blount Haigh and Frey at the ToH?

If your answer is not "that (ETA their squires) bullied the Stark Bannerman Howland Reed" then we can shake hands and not talk again.

ETA sorry watching new show, Utopia, on Fox, what a train wreck

[Kingmonkey]

. It could be a family thing, or it could be just between Howland and Meera. Or it could be just Howland likes wearing his hair like Meera because that's his daughter. Or Meera likes wearing her hair like Howland because it's her father. Or they are both doing it unconciously.

Just catching up on the theory, so apologies if this has been covered before and I missed it, but I'm a little puzzled by this. Where does it say that Howland wears his hair in a knot too?

[Antler's Fury]

The book NEVER says he is in the Neck. What part of that is so incomprehensible to you?

Robb also sends Maege and Galbart with fake copies of his will in ASOS to the Neck to meet Howland Reed in Greywater Watch in the Neck. So yes, Howland was in the Neck last time the books mentioned his location. It is things like this that make me wonder whether you and I are reading the same books.

If your answer is not "that they bullied the Stark Bannerman Howland Reed" then we can shake hands and not talk again.

Collective punishment is punishing someone for the crimes of a person they are associated with. If KotLT punished Haigh and Frey for failing to train their squires properly, then they are being punished for their own failure to train their squires, not for the squires' hurting Howland.

[JonSnow4President]

I'll ask you one more question. What motivated the KotLT to challenge Blount Haigh and Frey at the ToH?

If your answer is not "that they bullied the Stark Bannerman Howland Reed" then we can shake hands and not talk again.

The fact their squires bullied the Stark Bannerman Howland Reed is the basis for determining their own failure, yes.