High Septon = Howland Reed 3.0

[Antler's Fury]

Do you think this argument would matter a whit to Howland Reed? "I tried to stop Joff, I even whispered in his ear at the time to stop, but you know boys at that age, so headstrong. I had made a deal with Ned (after letting his wounds fester and threatening to kill his daughters) that he could honorably admit to treason to save his kids' lives, and then go to the Wall, but Joff always did do what he wanted. How could that be my fault?"

Joff is still as much, if not more responsible for Ned's execution, so why wasn't Howland targeting him? Or Tywin, Walder, and Roose who arranged the Red Wedding? Or Jaime even, for maiming Ned? Why is Cersei and Cersei alone Howland's target long after the Stark leadership and most of their tormenters have died off? And furthermore, if he wants to punish her, why isn't he punishing her for her actual crime of executing Ned rather than fornication?

The North (which includes HR, of course) has no interest in putting Jon on the IT, they want a King in the North.

Then why is Howland in the South wasting time in KL instead of actually attempting to stop the Boltons from bringing the North back under the IT?

The Faith Militant could be of great help fighting the real threat from the north, and the FotS has coexisted peacefully with the religion of the old gods for thousands of years.

The Faith Militant is called Militant for a reason. It's an order of armed religious zealots dedicated to exterminating all enemies of the Faith. I don't understand why people seem to think that the FM has any sort of affection for the Old Gods, or any interest in Northern independence, especially considering that they are ostensibly supporting Tommen, who claims to be King of all of Westeros, and has been blessed by the High Sparrow. "Peaceful" anything is, by definition, the last thing on their minds. And there is no evidence at all that they know or care about the Others. There is, however, plenty of evidence that they would have no interest in putting Jon, who is either a bastard or born of polygamy and therefore a religious abomination, in any sort of position of power.

[BitsOfBrains]

I like the work that went into the theory but I see one major hole in it.

The Faith Militant long run is like THE WORST thing that could happen to the north.

They will start chopping down weirwoods and forcing conversion or death situations.

It was like when Reagan gave support, weapons, and training to Al Qaeda and Osama Bin Laden. Frankensteins monster situation and Howland Reed if smart enough to orchestrate such an awesome plot would be smart enough to see that coming.

[forestchilde]

Joff is still as much, if not more responsible for Ned's execution, so why wasn't Howland targeting him? Or Tywin, Walder, and Roose who arranged the Red Wedding? Or Jaime even, for maiming Ned? Why is Cersei and Cersei alone Howland's target long after the Stark leadership and most of their tormenters have died off? And furthermore, if he wants to punish her, why isn't he punishing her for her actual crime of executing Ned rather than fornication?

Then why is Howland in the South wasting time in KL instead of actually attempting to stop the Boltons from bringing the North back under the IT?

The Faith Militant is called Militant for a reason. It's an order of armed religious zealots dedicated to exterminating all enemies of the Faith. I don't understand why people seem to think that the FM has any sort of affection for the Old Gods, or any interest in Northern independence, especially considering that they are ostensibly supporting Tommen, who claims to be King of all of Westeros, and has been blessed by the High Sparrow. "Peaceful" anything is, by definition, the last thing on their minds. And there is no evidence at all that they know or care about the Others. There is, however, plenty of evidence that they would have no interest in putting Jon, who is either a bastard or born of polygamy and therefore a religious abomination, in any sort of position of power.

Anything Joffrey did can be laid at Cersei's feet. She is an arrogant, merciless, sadistic and vindictive woman who is proud of her equally reprehensible son. HR punished her for what she has admitted doing, I don't think he's through with her if he can get evidence (like Lancel's testimony, and Kettleblack's) into the trial.

HR is doing his part in a larger Northern strategy, i.e., bringing down the Lannisters (Kevan may have been next, Varys just beat him to it). He did bless Tommen, but when it's proven Tommen is Jamie's son, that doesn't matter. Marching an "army" of diminuitive crannogmen North is a joke. Any small force of knights on destriers would carve them up. The Faith Militant certainly caused trouble for the Targaryen regime, but where is the evidence they troubled the North? They'll find out about the Others soon enough, whether they know about them now or not.

[Universal Sword Donor]

Anything Joffrey did can be laid at Cersei's feet. She is an arrogant, merciless, sadistic and vindictive woman who is proud of her equally reprehensible son. HR punished her for what she has admitted doing, I don't think he's through with her if he can get evidence (like Lancel's testimony, and Kettleblack's) into the trial.

HR is doing his part in a larger Northern strategy, i.e., bringing down the Lannisters (Kevan may have been next, Varys just beat him to it). He did bless Tommen, but when it's proven Tommen is Jamie's son, that doesn't matter. Marching an "army" of diminuitive crannogmen North is a joke. Any small force of knights on destriers would carve them up. The Faith Militant certainly caused trouble for the Targaryen regime, but where is the evidence they troubled the North? They'll find out about the Others soon enough, whether they know about them now or not.

Like beheading Ned?

HR =/= HS, makes no sense.

Oh and that's a joke.

[Antler's Fury]

Anything Joffrey did can be laid at Cersei's feet. She is an arrogant, merciless, sadistic and vindictive woman who is proud of her equally reprehensible son. HR punished her for what she has admitted doing, I don't think he's through with her if he can get evidence (like Lancel's testimony, and Kettleblack's) into the trial.

No, Joffrey was his own person and made his own decisions independent of Cersei. She played a big role in his becoming the way he was, but it's absurd to say that he had no control over his own behavior. Furthermore, HR punished Cersei for her fornication, not her involvement in the war against the Starks. Why would he do this if he wanted vengeance for the Starks?

HR is doing his part in a larger Northern strategy, i.e., bringing down the Lannisters

Why is bringing down the Lannisters important? There are no Lannister men in the North. Getting them off the IT does nothing to help Northern independence, because Roose and the Freys are actually in the North trying to bring the North back under the IT.

(Kevan may have been next, Varys just beat him to it).

And what was Howland going to do to him? Arrest him for fornication too? Kevan never committed any crimes against the Faith that we know of.

He did bless Tommen, but when it's proven Tommen is Jamie's son, that doesn't matter.

It proves that the High Sparrow blessed an incest born abomination, which would raise questions as to whether he is in fact the embodiment of the Seven on earth. Furthermore, why would a Faith Militant that was opposed to an incest born Tommen support crowning Jon, who is either a bastard or born of polygamy? The Faith hates both of those things.

Marching an "army" of diminuitive crannogmen North is a joke. Any small force of knights on destriers would carve them up.

They'd still be able to be of some military use, which is much more than they are doing at the moment. What have the sparrows accomplished for the North exactly? They didn't even play a role in Cersei's arrest.

The Faith Militant certainly caused trouble for the Targaryen regime, but where is the evidence they troubled the North? They'll find out about the Others soon enough, whether they know about them now or not.

Where is the evidence that they care about the North or the Others?

[Luddsthirdmorph]

Initially I clicked on this thread to argue about how ridiculous the idea of a worshipper of the old gods (possibly one who is already or is to become a Greenseer) doing pretending he was high septon to the faith of the seven.

However some of the points made me gasp and rethink. Several things made me womder. The weirwood staff and orb - yes very strange and then again the sept with the weirwood faces and the description of the septas. GRRM does not waste words so who did he bother to describe them at all!!!!

So here is some additional information to throw into the mix. Historically in Britain (and lets recognise that MOST of GRRMs story is driven by the REAL history of Britain) the ancient "god" the "Green Man" was integrated into the catholic church, so much so that his features were cared into cathedrals and churches. Google the green man and you have a figure VERY like the image of Blood raven in the tree and presumably other green men. Thus GoT parallel the good green man aka Howland Reed is integrated into the faith of the seven.

The many faced god seems to indicate that all faiths are really one, and that ultimately death is the fate of everyone. However note that this cult is also WEIRWOOD based. White and black. Thus a weirwood based greenseer cult may in fact be the single overiding "god" or spirit, with the green seers representing life and the many faced god death. Two sides of the same coin. This would allow a green seer AKA Howland reed to also be the High septon.

[Luddsthirdmorph]

Joffrey was still a child.

I do not think that many in the North would punish a child.

[The Agency of Sansa Stark]

No

If he is, he's one sick fuck-- and I don't envision him like that at all

[Antler's Fury]

Joffrey was still a child.

I do not think that many in the North would punish a child.

And yet we are supposed to believe that Howland is willing to punish Tommen.

[White Ravens]

I am not a believer in this theory. Strangely, one of the things that kills it for me is the description of the High Sparrow's feet.

his feet were bare and black, gnarled and hard as tree roots.

The OP asks that we play along and find a Reed connection because the High Sparrow is described as wearing his hair tied back behind his head and knotted and that the only other character in the books with the same hair style is Howland Reed's daughter Meera. Similarly, the only other character described in the books with gnarly black feet is Septon Meribald so I invite you to entertain the notion that GRRM describes the HS's feet like this because he wants us to make a connection to poor Septons who wander the countryside barefoot ministering to the poor folk in remote villages. Wearing no footwear and developing hard and tough skin is a notable enough thing that an entire Wildling tribe goes by the name Hornfoot. If similar hair styles is enough to connect Howland to Meera I would think that she and Jojen would share their father's unusual lack of footwear.

[Universal Sword Donor]

I am not a believer in this theory. Strangely, one of this things that kills it for me is the description of the High Sparrow's feet.

The OP asks that we play along and find a Reed connection because the High Sparrow is described as wearing his hair tied back behind his head and knotted and that the only other character in the books with the same hair style is Howland Reed's daughter Meera. Similarly, the only other character described in the books with gnarly black feet is Septon Meribald so I invite you to entertain the notion that GRRM describes the HS's feet like this because he wants us to make a connection to poor Septons who wander the countryside barefoot ministering to the poor folk in remote villages. Wearing no footwear and developing hard and tough skin is a notable enough thing that an entire Wildling tribe goes by the name Hornfoot. If similar hair styles is enough to connect Howland to Meera I would think that she and Jojan would share their father's unusual lack of footwear.

Except Haldon and Lady Dustin wear their hair in a similar manner, and there are wildlings with feet described the exact same way.

[White Ravens]

Except Haldon and Lady Dustin wear their hair in a similar manner, and there are wildlings with feet described the exact same way.

The OP stated that the only other character with that hair style is Meera, so I took him at his word. I guess the hair style connects Howland to Meera even less than I thought. I mentioned the Hornfoot tribe of Wildlings in my post. Forsaking footwear results in notably ugly feet, but no Reeds described in the books have this gnarly feature.

[Universal Sword Donor]

The OP stated that the only other character with that hair style is Meera, so I took him at his word. I guess the hair style connects Howland to Meera even less than I thought. I mentioned the Hornfoot tribe of Wildlings in my post. Forsaking footwear results in notably ugly feet, but no Reeds described in the books have this gnarly feature.

The theory is pretty threadbare. I'll just leave it a that.

[willofDorne]

If it was seven against three, and only two lived to ride away (Howland and Ned) then Howland must have fought. Or else it would only have been six against three.

Definitive in the sense that HR was explicitly described as fighting the KG. For anyone with a brain, those passages obviously narrate a fight and HR would have been part of it.

It doesn't matter if he was able to beat Ser Aurthur Dayne himself, he's still a small man playing a role as High Septon, therefore... Cersei pushes him, he moves. Physics, A moving object of greater mass hits a non-moving object of lesser mass, the smaller object moves. Had it said, "Howland Reed took a combat stance and was promptly pushed aside anyways by Cersei's martial skill" I'd say you have more of a case, but not much. I've never seen anyone on the forums or you-tube analysis say anything but Howland Reed was a wild card in that 7 vs 3 fight, and likely had a very mysterious unknown effect...

This strawman argument you guys chose is too easily dismissed. I can't even add it to the FAQS because of how blatantly it goes against all our common knowledge about Howland Reed.

[Universal Sword Donor]

It doesn't matter if he was able to beat Ser Aurthur Dayne himself, he's still a small man playing a role as High Septon, therefore... Cersei pushes him, he moves. Physics, A moving object of greater mass hits a non-moving object of lesser mass, the smaller object moves. Had it said, "Howland Reed took a combat stance and was promptly pushed aside anyways by Cersei's martial skill" I'd say you have more of a case, but not much. I've never seen anyone on the forums or you-tube analysis say anything but Howland Reed was a wild card in that 7 vs 3 fight, and likely had a very mysterious unknown effect...

This strawman argument you guys chose is too easily dismissed. I can't even add it to the FAQS because of how blatantly it goes against all our common knowledge about Howland Reed.

Okay bro!

[willofDorne]

I like the work that went into the theory but I see one major hole in it.

The Faith Militant long run is like THE WORST thing that could happen to the north.

They will start chopping down weirwoods and forcing conversion or death situations.

It was like when Reagan gave support, weapons, and training to Al Qaeda and Osama Bin Laden. Frankensteins monster situation and Howland Reed if smart enough to orchestrate such an awesome plot would be smart enough to see that coming.

The Faith Militant is sworn to the High Septon. Like how the men of the Night's Watch are sworn to the Night's Watch, but still answer to the LC. The Kingsguards are sworn to the king, and obey him, they don't just go around doing what they "think" will protect him they follow his orders and keep his secrets. Otherwise, they'd just be knights, men who took oaths to the seven, but only serve small folk. You don't see knights going around doing anything crazy on behalf of women, the weak and innocent, right? So what makes you think the Faith Militant will?

[Universal Sword Donor]

The Faith Militant is sworn to the High Septon. Like how the men of the Night's Watch is sworn to the Night's Watch, but still answers to the LC. The Kingsguards are sworn to the king, and obey him, they don't just go around doing what they "think" will protect him they follow his orders and keep his secrets. Otherwise, they'd just be knights, men who took oaths to the seven, but only serve small folk. You don't see knights going around doing anything crazy on behalf of women, the weak and innocent, right? So what makes you think the Faith Militant will?

Religious extremists who get deceived don't take real kindly to it, and the NW, KG, and most knights are not extremists in any sense of the word.

There's a reason why the Night's Watch has plenty of people who go whore in Molestown and rebel against Mormont on the ranging.

There's a reason why the KG doesn't have a sterling reputation at this point in time. One kills a king. Another beds his mistress. Another quits mid-battle and says "fuck the king."

There's a reason why knights like Lorch, Clegane, and Mormont are willing to act as slavers, rapers, and pillage to their hearts content.

[willofDorne]

Initially I clicked on this thread to argue about how ridiculous the idea of a worshipper of the old gods (possibly one who is already or is to become a Greenseer) doing pretending he was high septon to the faith of the seven.

However some of the points made me gasp and rethink. Several things made me womder. The weirwood staff and orb - yes very strange and then again the sept with the weirwood faces and the description of the septas. GRRM does not waste words so who did he bother to describe them at all!!!!

So here is some additional information to throw into the mix. Historically in Britain (and lets recognise that MOST of GRRMs story is driven by the REAL history of Britain) the ancient "god" the "Green Man" was integrated into the catholic church, so much so that his features were cared into cathedrals and churches. Google the green man and you have a figure VERY like the image of Blood raven in the tree and presumably other green men. Thus GoT parallel the good green man aka Howland Reed is integrated into the faith of the seven.

The many faced god seems to indicate that all faiths are really one, and that ultimately death is the fate of everyone. However note that this cult is also WEIRWOOD based. White and black. Thus a weirwood based greenseer cult may in fact be the single overiding "god" or spirit, with the green seers representing life and the many faced god death. Two sides of the same coin. This would allow a green seer AKA Howland reed to also be the High septon.

This is a pretty neat find. And certainly adds credence to the feet that are as knarled as tree roots, making me lean again towards the feet being black for "other reasons"

Wow, solid find! This should probably be somehow included in the main OP.

I also found this on the wiki, which links back to my Robin Hood theory! This makes me happy!

"The Green Man is a recurring theme in literature. Sometimes the figure of Robin Hood is associated with a Green Man, as is that of the Green Knight"

[White Ravens]

This is a pretty neat find. And certainly adds credence to the feet that are as knarled as tree roots, making me lean again towards the feet being black for "other reasons"

Wow, solid find! This should probably be somehow included in the main OP.

Seriously? Luddsthirdmorph's post reads as support for the gnarly feet of the HS being linked to HL in your mind? Please explain this to me because I don't see it.

[Alistair Stark]

I actually kind of hate this theory now, after thinking it was possible. It still IS possible, since GRRM could throw us a curveball, but I believe Howland Reed is The Hooded Man in Winterfell over the HR=High Septon theory.

Howland being the Hooded Man has much more believability (especially since he appears to be using guerilla assassination tactics) instead of the High Septon who twiddles his thumbs when it comes to Cersei. The High Septon is probably just a normal, overzealous (and mildly sexist) character introduced as the sparrows'/common people's angry answer to the nobility that wouldn't give two craps about them if they all just died off.