High Septon = Howland Reed 3.0

[willofDorne]

It feels like I'm watching an episode of the X-Files but Scully is freaking out on Mulder with skepticism. The funny thing is, Scully always sounded reasonable, but Mulder was always right.

[Antler's Fury]

See, this is why no one takes your posts seriously, because you consistantly and continually misrepresent the facts.

The OP never says the septas are Mormont women. The OP explains that the septas are she-bears, and it draws from the descriptions we have of other she-bears.

It draws from descriptions we have of specific she bears: the women of House Mormont. What does "she-bears" mean if not Mormont women? Does it mean general warrior-women from Bear Island? If so, we have no reason to believe that they resemble Mormont women, yet the supposed resemblance between the septas and the Mormont women is the entire basis for the "septas = she bears" argument. As such, this argument is clearly unsupported by the text.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

Heh. I thought "Bonifer Hasty is Dany's father" was flimsy, but this one is a real contender. Assuming the OP is serious (you never know). A lot of assumptions and clues that were, simply, manufactured. No, "stronger than they look" isn't a Mormont thing. No, axe doesn't mean northmen. No, VERY BIG FONTS don't help.

[Faceless Void]

It draws from descriptions we have of specific she bears: the women of House Mormont. What does "she-bears" mean if not Mormont women? Does it mean general warrior-women from Bear Island? If so, we have no reason to believe that they resemble Mormont women, yet the supposed resemblance between the septas and the Mormont women is the entire basis for the "septas = she bears" argument. As such, this argument is clearly unsupported by the text.

You're implacable, really. You've completely ignored the she-bear carving parallel. You've completely ignored the sinner's steps. And, you will continue to do so, or dismiss it as nothing.

Listen, there isn't a point to us arguing. You're apparently deaf to reason, and I'm kinda tired going back and forth. Besides, from all the other iterations of this thread, it's pretty evident that you're not willing to consider the other side of the argument.

In any event, say what you will. I think I'm done with arguing this point.

[Faceless Void]

No, "stronger than they look" isn't a Mormont thing.

It isn't something said, word for word, by Maege, and later reiterated in Cersei's assessment of the septas? Oh wait, it is.

The same thought is spoken or reiterated by any other character in the story? Oh wait, it isn't.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

It isn't something said, word for word, by Maege, and later reiterated in Cersei's assessment of the septas? Oh wait, it is.

The same thought is spoken or reiterated by any other character in the story? Oh wait, it isn't.

Except for, in no particular order: Jaime Lannister (in his own thoughts), Sansa Stark (so said Cersei), Stonesnake (Jon's observation), Lothor Brune (Sansa's observation), the oarsman of the boat carrying Sansa and Dontos (ditto), and Gilly (that's what Sam Tarly said). Oh, and the stairs at the Castle Black, according to black brothers. As I said, fabricated clues.

ETA: sorry, there was also Ser Talbert Serry, in Victarion Greyjoy's opinion.

[Faceless Void]

Except for, in no particular order: Jaime Lannister (in his own thoughts), Sansa Stark (so said Cersei), Stonesnake (Jon's observation), Lothor Brune (Sansa's observation), the oarsman of the boat carrying Sansa and Dontos (ditto), and Gilly (that's what Sam Tarly said). Oh, and the stairs at the Castle Black, according to black brothers. As I said, fabricated clues.

ETA: sorry, there was also Ser Talbert Serry, in Victarion Greyjoy's opinion.

Like I said, the difference is that Cersei's assessment and Maege's statement are practically verbatim. Care to actually cite the other examples?

Hilariously, you've also added in men, when the comparison is strictly between women who are stronger than they appear. Way to fail at understanding the argument :rolleyes:

p.s. the women examples you give are both Northerners... LOL

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

It isn't something said, word for word, by Maege, and later reiterated in Cersei's assessment of the septas? Oh wait, it is.

The same thought is spoken or reiterated by any other character in the story? Oh wait, it isn't.

Like I said, the difference is that Cersei's assessment and Maege's statement are practically verbatim. Care to actually cite the other examples?

Hilariously, you've also added in men, when the comparison is strictly between women who are stronger than they appear. Way to fail at understanding the argument :rolleyes:

p.s. the women examples you give are both Northerners... LOL

Dude, don't change you position so blatantly, when your last post is still visible on the same page. First, what is important that the thought supposedly "never being spoken or reiterated by any other character" (a blatant lie), 58 minutes later it has to be specifically about women, and suddenly exact wording is super important (BTW, Cersei's septas are "stronger than they look", like Lothor Brune and Talbert Serry, and not "stronger than they seem", like Maege and her daughters).

Not only are you a cheater, you're an incompetent cheater, and I refuse to play with you any more. LOL.

[Faceless Void]

Not only are you a cheater, you're an incompetent cheater, and I refuse to play with you any more. LOL.

You know what? I think I'm done here.

This forum seems like a cesspool of idiots who refuse to accept things, even when they're being spoon-fed the answers.

Sorry, but a debate devoid of critical thought isn't my cup of tea. Peace out.

[7th-key]

-snip-

:thumbsup:

[JonSnow4President]

See, this is why no one takes your posts seriously, because you consistantly and continually misrepresent the facts.

The OP never says the septas are Mormont women. The OP explains that the septas are she-bears, and it draws from the descriptions we have of other she-bears. You're so caught up in asserting that they're Mormonts, you can't even realize this simple fact.

Unfortunately, judging by what I've read from the last couple threads, that isn't a point you're going to understand, so I'll just leave it at that. You have your opinion, I have mine.

Excuse me if I'm wrong, but isn't she bears always used to refer to the female Mormonts?

[Lady Woodland]

Random Septon does seem to be a little deux ex machina at the moment (although I don't think it would be bad for the story if that is actually what he is - he is a religious figure after all ;) ).

I'm still very open-minded about the motivations if HS=HR. Whilst I am partial to the various motivations that have been suggested for HR posing as HS (including, quite specifically bringing down Cersei or destabilising King's Landing), based on what we know:

• his loyalty to Ned and the Starks

that he is brave and smart and bold

he can be driven by revenge (this word is used twice by Meera in the story of the KotLT)

the contents of Robb's will possibly appointing Jon as his heir

being able to 'weave words' (which I take to mean he is persuasive, perhaps charismatic) and do all the magic of crannogmen

being in possession of certain pertinent information that we all suspect (Jon's parentage and possible claim)

I do wonder if perhaps his motivations are far deeper, due to whatever knowledge he gained at the Isle of Faces, and the hints we are given that the disparate faiths appear to have more in common than not. I wonder, like you, if he will use this position to consolidate (or at least try to) the faiths to oppose the Others, who (at this stage) present a real and overarching danger to mankind - perhaps even to form a new Pact. Pure speculation, I know, but interesting to think about.

All that said, I think we still have much more to learn about the motivation of the CofF, Others, Green Men, and so on, and this could all impact heavily on other characters and plans, which are yet to be revealed.

Thank you Sir Quork,

Well said, I was struggling to put into words what I meant but you have read my mind particularly about his time of the IoF I believe that will be key but again like you it's a personal belief based on a hunch & definitely not anything I can glean from the text & put out there as a theory, but basically as you said not just the people but their faiths coming together to create a defence.

Sort of off topic but I think of it in terms of our real world situation, I have seen incidents of humanity putting aside their differences & coming together for a common cause, by defending the displaced & helpless in times of war & famine, providing men & arms to defend the oppressed with no way to defend themselves, perhaps this is GRRM's wish for us all through his writing.

[Antler's Fury]

You're implacable, really. You've completely ignored the she-bear carving parallel.

That "parallel" only works if the septas are Mormonts or at least from Bear Island, and thus associated with the she-bear carving of House Mormont. But, as we have established, they are not Mormonts, and we have no reason to believe that they are warrior-women from Bear Island.

You've completely ignored the sinner's steps.

Again, this supposed parallel only works if the septas are in fact she-bears, and they are not.

You're apparently deaf to reason,

What reason? There is almost none in this OP.

and I'm kinda tired going back and forth. Besides, from all the other iterations of this thread, it's pretty evident that you're not willing to consider the other side of the argument.

On the contrary. I have addressed the other side of the argument point by point. You, on the other hand, refuse to even read my posts, so who is ignoring whom exactly?

[willofDorne]

"It would have to be his grandfather, for Jory's father was buried far to the south. Martyn Cassel had perished with the rest..."

This is another reason for vengeance, Howland Reed would want vengeance for Jory's death as well. It's another reason he may have left to go gather evidence against Tywin and the Mountain. I really like putting Howland Reed's timeline about there... because it makes sense that he'd be on a very long mission this whole time.

[Antler's Fury]

This is another reason for vengeance, Howland Reed would want vengeance for Jory's death as well.

So he concocts a byzantine scheme to punish Cersei? Why? Jory was killed by Jaime, not Cersei, and Jaime's still alive, so why not focus on punishing him? As I've mentioned several times already, Cersei is the Lannister least responsible for the North's problems. In this particular case, she definitely did NOT want Jaime to kill Jory, because Ned had just quit the Handship and was leaving KL, leaving the office open for Jaime. Jaime's attack on Ned and his men prevented Ned from leaving, resulted in his being reinstated as Hand, and ultimately resulted in him finding out about the incest.

[Antler's Fury]

Isn't that covered by the weirwood staff

You mean the one that was held by the previous High Septon, NOT the High Sparrow? What does that have to do with anything?

and the 7 faces in his small Sept being faces of the old gods with their eyes that look alive via who he might be using to communicate out (assuming we all buy that he has magic and can communicate with the CotF) which also explains a lot of how the sparrows organized this whole takeover of Kings Landing?

The 7 faces are the faces of the Seven, not the Old Gods. And there is no evidence at all that he is using them to communicate with anyone, or if that is even possible.

From what I can recall, callaused hands on women is generally a trait of women warriors.

No, it simply indicates that the women in question work with their hands a lot. This could be because they are warriors, or simply because they are engaging in some kind of manual labor. In this case, Cersei tells us that the septas are tougher because they have spent their lives working around the sept.

However, the next Lord of Winterfell was Robb, and Robb's final decree was to legitimize Jon and make him King (upon his death, of course).

So, given that Howland is loyal to House Stark, and the decree was Robb's last wish, I think the argument for Howland trying to establish Jon as King still stands; despite Lyanna's dying wish, in which Ned is the only noted person committed to upholding that promise.

Robb wanted Jon as King in the North, NOT the Iron Throne. So how exactly is Howland fulfilling Robb's will by putting Jon on the Iron Throne?

Howland Reed's liege lord was killed because he exposed the Baratheon children as bastards. So, that's one motive, continue what Ned started.

Ned wanted Stannis on the IT, but Howland apparently is not interested in that. Ned did not want Jon on the IT, but Howland apparently wants that. Ned also explicitly stated that he did not want Cersei or her children punished, yet, that is exactly what Howland is supposedly doing. So, how exactly is Howland finishing what Ned started by doing things that Ned most definitely did not want?

Another motive is simple vengeance for Ned's murder.

...which Cersei was not responsible for, and even wanted to stop. Why punish her?

His liege Lady and new liege Lord were murdered by the Lannisers.

They were murdered by Tywin, the Boltons, and the Freys. Tywin died no thanks to Howland, but the Boltons/Freys are still out there causing trouble. If Howland wants revenge for the RW, why is he punishing Cersei, who had nothing to do with it? People keep saying that "The Lannisters" collectively did things, when they most definitely did not. In fact, it is the members of House Lannister's failure to work together that causes most of their problems. Why is everyone assuming that Howland is unable to distinguish between the actions of individual members of the Lannister family?

Another is that he could be working with other Lord's and factions, and this is the best place he could be to further the destruction of House Lannister and their incest bastards. He's certainly not anywhere else.

Why can't he still be in Greywater Watch, where we last heard he actually was?

Howland Reed sent his children to an uncertain fate. If he is fearful of the coming Ice war, what better way to prepare than to amass armies who aren't beholden to the crown,

Is there any evidence at all that the Faith Militant knows or cares about the Others? And if they do, why aren't they doing something about them, instead of punishing corrupt septons and queens?

sack the sept of valuables to fund these armies,

The sept's wealth was used to feed the poor, not fund an army. In fact, the High Sparrow redistributes the money of the sept before Cersei grants him permission to reform the Faith Militant.

unseat the power on the Iron Throne,

...which accomplishes what exactly aside from break apart a realm that needs to be united against the Others?

We also know Ned often sent letters to Howland. We also know Ned might have written a mysterious letter while in the dungeons.

Sent to Howland by whom? Varys? Varys wants Aegon in power, not Jon. He's definitely not going to aid Ned in sending any letters that reveal Jon's parentage, because that would threaten Aegon's claim.

So there are two more motivations - a request from Robb for hel

How would Howland be helping a dead Robb by pretending to be the High Septon?

[willofDorne]

Anter's Fury raises a lot of points, of course, he's got antlers. What do you expect?

[Lady Woodland]

It seems very few people are able to compartmentalise this theory - there is a lot of information in the OP that has been gleaned from the text, as I said before it is unlikely all the points are correct but many could be.

@Antler's Fury, I would be interested to know why you think HR would be so cowardly as to stay in the Neck when he has sent his children on such a dangerous mission, It would surprise me greatly to find out he didn't anticipate that the journey would lead to Jojen's death.

What could be so important it prevents HR from going to aid Bran & Rickon himself? You've already stated he would be better served in the Riverland's or at WF fighting the Frey's & Lannisters in response to Robb's letter & appeal but he's clearly not, so where is he? Anything?, Surely with your strong opinions that this theory makes no sense you must have some idea's about where HR is?

Robb sent to HR for help so you think he's just sent his heirs to an uncertain fate while he blows poison darts at the Boltons? I find that highly unlikely, I can't think of a better way for HR to help from what we have learned about his character.

[Rhaenys' kitten]

:agree:

@AF, where do you think HR is, hiding behind his wife's skirts in the swamp somewhere?

[Ziriath]

The supposed look of Mormont girls in these threads is based on the description of one of them (who is freezin' with Stannis for sure, and we do not even know, if she is scowling and ugly), and their male cousin. While one other girl was decribed quite different.