High Septon = Howland Reed 3.0

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

:agree:

@AF, where do you think HR is, hiding behind his wife's skirts in the swamp somewhere?

Up until very recently (early chapters of ADWD), he might have been kinda busy fighting a war on his own lands.

[SacredOrderOfGreenMen]

Hate this theory.

[willofDorne]

The supposed look of Mormont girls in these threads is based on the description of one of them (who is freezin' with Stannis for sure, and we do not even know, if she is scowling and ugly), and their male cousin. While one other girl was decribed quite different.

Well, Maege is with her daughters Lyra and Jory. So if you subscribe to this theory, you'd have to take the leap of faith and say Maege, Alysane, Jory and Lyra all look alike. Being that the three are daughters of Maege, this shouldn't be difficult.

Also interesting, there could be another hint here... the name Jory. Coincidentally, Jory is one of the men lost in the ambush, which is followed by a fever dream which includes Howland Reed. There are other subtle connections here as well.

[Antler's Fury]

@Antler's Fury, I would be interested to know why you think HR would be so cowardly as to stay in the Neck when he has sent his children on such a dangerous mission, It would surprise me greatly to find out he didn't anticipate that the journey would lead to Jojen's death.

There is nothing cowardly about defending your home. There is, however, something cowardly about abandoning it for an irrelevant pet project.

What could be so important it prevents HR from going to aid Bran & Rickon himself? You've already stated he would be better served in the Riverland's or at WF fighting the Frey's & Lannisters in response to Robb's letter & appeal but he's clearly not, so where is he? Anything?, Surely with your strong opinions that this theory makes no sense you must have some idea's about where HR is?

We last heard that he was at Greywater Watch, so that's where I'm assuming he is. Aside from that, I have no clue where he could be, but there is almost no evidence that he is in KL playing at being septon. I don't see why this is so difficult for people to admit that they have to concoct implausible theories to explain where else he may be.

[willofDorne]

There is nothing cowardly about defending your home. There is, however, something cowardly about abandoning it for an irrelevant pet project.

We last heard that he was at Greywater Watch, so that's where I'm assuming he is. Aside from that, I have no clue where he could be, but there is almost no evidence that he is in KL playing at being septon. I don't see why this is so difficult for people to admit that they have to concoct implausible theories to explain where else he may be.

That's all your opinion. We have no idea how the chain of command works in the Neck, but we do know they succeeded in a very nasty attack on Moat Cailin. This may have been commanded by Reed, or someone else, but either way Reed wasn't in both places at once. Or perhaps you'd like to put forth that delegating commands is also cowardly?

We simply do not know... so it's far too speculative to say someone must or mustn't stay at Greywater Watch. As far as we know, that only holds true for "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell."

[Clariana]

You did this on the last thread too. Please try to discuss one thing at a time or make your own thread.

Wow! You guys really can't cope can you? Are you children, do you need spoonfeeding? Just read it...

Excellent post Antler.

[Ser Hodor Hodor of Hodor]

High Sparrow's Appearance

....while Howland Reed had enough physical strength to fight several members of the Kingsguard, the best knights alive, and survive.

you can neither proof that he had physical strength, nor that he fought them at all.

this is the problem with all your posts, you do not use the text, but your own interpretation for your arguments. really makes no sense at all to discuss this way.

[Antler's Fury]

you can neither proof that he had physical strength, nor that he fought them at all.

Fighting requires physical strength. We know that he was involved in a fight with several KG, and survived, and even saved Ned. That is what I meant. My point was that this does not sound like an old man that Cersei could simply push aside.

this is the problem with all your posts, you do not use the text, but your own interpretation for your arguments. really makes no sense at all to discuss this way.

This is getting tiresome. See the quotes in my post? I quote the text directly. Yes, I interpret the text in a way that makes sense to me, but so what? Everyone does that, the OP most of all.

[Ser Quork]

Fighting requires physical strength. We know that he was involved in a fight with several KG, and survived, and even saved Ned. That is what I meant. My point was that this does not sound like an old man that Cersei could simply push aside.

There is no quote stating that HR fought the KG. Far from it, the text is actually obfuscating that issue and that is what is interesting.

We know from the story of the KotLT that HR

"the lad was no knight, no more than any of his people."

We know that the crannogmen don't fight in the same way as knights and soldiers, but more guerilla tactics - that's why they are despised. We know that HR saved Ned at the ToJ

"He would have killed me but for Howland Reed."

but not how he saved Ned (this is exactly what my first post on this thread was discussing). Reading between the lines, I'm pretty sure we will get a reveal exactly how that happened, and it will have more to do with what Meera told Bran about 'weaving words' than fighting.

[WeaselPie]

I'll just keep being invisible while my thoughts are reiterated by others, that's fine.

[Antler's Fury]

There is no quote stating that HR fought the KG.

Saving Ned's life in a fight with the KG requires fighting the KG. They were the ones threatening Ned's life. You might say that Ned was badly wounded and that Howland kept him alive, but that would still require Howland to have survived the fight himself. At any rate, we have no reason to believe that Howland is so old and frail that he would not be able to stop Cersei from pushing him aside.

[Ser Quork]

At any rate, we have no reason to believe that Howland is so old and frail that he would not be able to stop Cersei from pushing him aside.

As for Cersei:

"The High Septon tried to seize her, but he was some old sparrow and she was a lionness of the rock. She pushed him aside and burst through the door, slamming it behind her with a clang."

Any woman can unbalance any man if he's unprepared. She knocks over a septa too, and claws another's face - she's a desperate woman, and this isn't an omniscient point of view - it's Cersei's view and clearly partisan from the language used. I suggest we have no reason to believe he is old and frail based on this.

[Ser Hodor Hodor of Hodor]

There is no quote stating that HR fought the KG. Far from it, the text is actually obfuscating that issue and that is what is interesting.

:agree:

the text says:

"They called him the Sword of the Morning, and he would have killed me but for Howland Reed." This is what Bran recalls Ned told him about Arthur dayne. Ned does not say that HR fought at all.We only kowthat he did something that saved Neds life. But it becomes more interesting when Bran then thinks:

"Father had gotten sad then, and he would say no more. Bran wished he had asked him what he meant." So Ned never told Bran what exactly happened at the ToJ and even Bran wonders about what it might be. And it gets even better when you read on: "He went to his bed with his head full of knights in gleaming armor, fighting with swords that shone like starfire..." These are the imaginations of a young boy who has an image of war and fighting that comes from tales, songs and bedtimestories, we are presented a picture full of cliches and fantasy tropes. as howland reed is mentioned just before we get brans imaginations we make a connection between those two things and are lead to assume HR must have been a great fighter too, although nothing like this is stated. It is this image that prevails in most readers minds, but if you revisit everything you really KNOW about howland reed the way you pictured him does not stand up to these informations

[forestchilde]

In response to Antler's Fury: Cersei bears direct responsibility for Ned's execution. From AFFC: (Speaking to the HS)

"We all regret that. Joffrey was young, and not as wise as he might have been. Lord Stark should have been beheaded elsewhere, out of respect for Blessed Baelor...but the man was a traitor, let us not forget."

So her excuse is that her son was responsible? That she really had no control over her son? That he was "not as wise as he might have been"??? Try psychopathic and a cruel sadist, and who's fault is that? And what was that traitorous crime? Trying to keep her son off the throne for being the fruit of incest, which is true and widely known by this time. So he still should have been beheaded, dontcha know. It was Joff's fault that your liege lord was executed at the sept, but c'mon, you know he had it coming.

As for the argument that the HS lost the negotiation with Cersei: (same chapter)

"Cersei could not help but smile. Even her lord father could have done no better. At a stroke, she had rid King's Landing of the plague of sparrows, secured Tommen's blessing, and lessened the crown's debt by close to a million dragons. Her heart was soaring as she allowed the High Septon to escort her back to the Hall of Lamps."

So I guess you wholeheartedly agree with Cersei here. Well, except that she did allow those sparrows to rearm, didn't she? Which led to her incarceration and walk of shame.

Oops!

[willofDorne]

In response to Antler's Fury: Cersei bears direct responsibility for Ned's execution. From AFFC: (Speaking to the HS)

"We all regret that. Joffrey was young, and not as wise as he might have been. Lord Stark should have been beheaded elsewhere, out of respect for Blessed Baelor...but the man was a traitor, let us not forget."

So her excuse is that her son was responsible? That she really had no control over her son? That he was "not as wise as he might have been"??? Try psychopathic and a cruel sadist, and who's fault is that? And what was that traitorous crime? Trying to keep her son off the throne for being the fruit of incest, which is true and widely known by this time. So he still should have been beheaded, dontcha know. It was Joff's fault that your liege lord was executed at the sept, but c'mon, you know he had it coming.

As for the argument that the HS lost the negotiation with Cersei: (same chapter)

"Cersei could not help but smile. Even her lord father could have done no better. At a stroke, she had rid King's Landing of the plague of sparrows, secured Tommen's blessing, and lessened the crown's debt by close to a million dragons. Her heart was soaring as she allowed the High Septon to escort her back to the Hall of Lamps."

So I guess you wholeheartedly agree with Cersei here. Well, except that she did allow those sparrows to rearm, didn't she? Which led to her incarceration and walk of shame.

Oops!

:cheers:

[Antler's Fury]

Any woman can unbalance any man if he's unprepared. She knocks over a septa too, and claws another's face - she's a desperate woman, and this isn't an omniscient point of view - it's Cersei's view and clearly partisan from the language used. I suggest we have no reason to believe he is old and frail based on this.

She calls him an "old sparrow" so what more evidence is required? I agree he's unprepared, but that doesn't mean he's not old as well.

In response to Antler's Fury: Cersei bears direct responsibility for Ned's execution. From AFFC: (Speaking to the HS)

"We all regret that. Joffrey was young, and not as wise as he might have been. Lord Stark should have been beheaded elsewhere, out of respect for Blessed Baelor...but the man was a traitor, let us not forget."

So her excuse is that her son was responsible? That she really had no control over her son? That he was "not as wise as he might have been"??? Try psychopathic and a cruel sadist, and who's fault is that? And what was that traitorous crime? Trying to keep her son off the throne for being the fruit of incest, which is true and widely known by this time. So he still should have been beheaded, dontcha know. It was Joff's fault that your liege lord was executed at the sept, but c'mon, you know he had it coming.

None of this changes the fact that Cersei did not want Ned beheaded and actually tried to stop it from happening. She wanted Ned to keep his mouth shut and take the black. She really did not have any control over Joffrey at that point; Illyn Payne was listening to him, not her. So yes, Joff was responsible, not Cersei.

"Cersei could not help but smile. Even her lord father could have done no better. At a stroke, she had rid King's Landing of the plague of sparrows, secured Tommen's blessing, and lessened the crown's debt by close to a million dragons. Her heart was soaring as she allowed the High Septon to escort her back to the Hall of Lamps."

So I guess you wholeheartedly agree with Cersei here. Well, except that she did allow those sparrows to rearm, didn't she? Which led to her incarceration and walk of shame.

Oops!

None of this changes the fact that the Faith Militant is of no help to Howland if his goal is to crown Jon as King, (because Jon is either a bastard or born of polygamy, both of which the Faith hates) and that it is no friend of Howland's actual religion, and quite possibly a great threat to it. Howland gains nothing useful to his plans by re-arming the Faith.

[Universal Sword Donor]

:agree:

the text says:

"They called him the Sword of the Morning, and he would have killed me but for Howland Reed." This is what Bran recalls Ned told him about Arthur dayne. Ned does not say that HR fought at all.We only kowthat he did something that saved Neds life. But it becomes more interesting when Bran then thinks:

"Father had gotten sad then, and he would say no more. Bran wished he had asked him what he meant." So Ned never told Bran what exactly happened at the ToJ and even Bran wonders about what it might be. And it gets even better when you read on: "He went to his bed with his head full of knights in gleaming armor, fighting with swords that shone like starfire..." These are the imaginations of a young boy who has an image of war and fighting that comes from tales, songs and bedtimestories, we are presented a picture full of cliches and fantasy tropes. as howland reed is mentioned just before we get brans imaginations we make a connection between those two things and are lead to assume HR must have been a great fighter too, although nothing like this is stated. It is this image that prevails in most readers minds, but if you revisit everything you really KNOW about howland reed the way you pictured him does not stand up to these informations

Or we could listen to Ned:

“They were seven, facing three. In the dream as it had been in life. Yet these were no ordinary three.”

“ They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed.”

Don't get me wrong. It's not definitive that HR fought the KG, but I don't really think that Ned would forgive him for not fighting. Well that and 5 of his companions and all 3 KGs died, so there was obviously fighting.

[Antler's Fury]

Don't get me wrong. It's not definitive that HR fought the KG,

If it was seven against three, and only two lived to ride away (Howland and Ned) then Howland must have fought. Or else it would only have been six against three.

[forestchilde]

She calls him an "old sparrow" so what more evidence is required? I agree he's unprepared, but that doesn't mean he's not old as well.

None of this changes the fact that Cersei did not want Ned beheaded and actually tried to stop it from happening. She wanted Ned to keep his mouth shut and take the black. She really did not have any control over Joffrey at that point; Illyn Payne was listening to him, not her. So yes, Joff was responsible, not Cersei.

None of this changes the fact that the Faith Militant is of no help to Howland if his goal is to crown Jon as King, (because Jon is either a bastard or born of polygamy, both of which the Faith hates) and that it is no friend of Howland's actual religion, and quite possibly a great threat to it. Howland gains nothing useful to his plans by re-arming the Faith.

Do you think this argument would matter a whit to Howland Reed? "I tried to stop Joff, I even whispered in his ear at the time to stop, but you know boys at that age, so headstrong. I had made a deal with Ned (after letting his wounds fester and threatening to kill his daughters) that he could honorably admit to treason to save his kids' lives, and then go to the Wall, but Joff always did do what he wanted. How could that be my fault?"

The North (which includes HR, of course) has no interest in putting Jon on the IT, they want a King in the North. They married dragons, but there are no more dragons, as the Greatjon says. The Faith Militant could be of great help fighting the real threat from the north, and the FotS has coexisted peacefully with the religion of the old gods for thousands of years. An amalgam of the two religions is advantageous to both the realm (vis a vis the war against the white walkers) and the North's cause by caring for the common man and lessening the Southern kingdoms' feudal power.

[Universal Sword Donor]

If it was seven against three, and only two lived to ride away (Howland and Ned) then Howland must have fought. Or else it would only have been six against three.

Definitive in the sense that HR was explicitly described as fighting the KG. For anyone with a brain, those passages obviously narrate a fight and HR would have been part of it.