sj4iy Posted September 6, 2014 Share Posted September 6, 2014 Ah, but notice something very important. Barristan does not just up and go to Joffrey. He asks PERMISSION to go. And when Ned - who is only Robert's former hand at the head of the Council - ORDERS Barristan to stay and listen, he stays. He does not flip Ned off as a lesser being without authority and flounce off to guard the king without orders to do so. Just as he asked permission of Tywin to ALLOW him to go rescue Aerys - who'd been sitting alone in a dungeon for six months - the night before Tywin was planning a massive attack that would probably have gotten the king killed. He allowed Tywin to make the decision of whether he should try to rescue Aerys from death or not. IMO, that shows a strong tendency in the KG to obey the orders they're given - NOT to make up orders based on what they think is necessary to protect the king. It certainly does not prove that the KG is allowed to Disobey orders so that they can Protect the King according to their own judgement...it seems to show the opposite, in fact. That doesn't mean that other KG AREN'T with Joffrey already, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted September 6, 2014 Share Posted September 6, 2014 Ned is still the Hand of the King when Robert dies. Robert gave him back the position after Ned resigned due to the Dany incident, hence why Ned (who is Hand and speaks with the King's own voice) was able to summon Barry in the first place. From the same chapter How about this Reposted in case it was missed and because that last quote is screaming at me (and I hope everyone else) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stateofdissipation Posted September 6, 2014 Share Posted September 6, 2014 If one wants to challenge what Ned says the vow is, and remember that we are dealing with the dialog in Ned's dream, they must demonstrate that "vow" means something else to Ned. Very similar to Daenerys' HotU visions. A cloth dragon on poles becomes a "mummer's dragon" in her dialog. A blue flower is further described as a blue rose, to Jorah. We don't deal with our definitions, we must understand the POV's definitions. If one wants to challenge what Ned says the vow is, and remember that we are dealing with the dialog in Ned's dream, they must demonstrate that "vow" means something else to Ned. He remembered Jamie Lannister, a golden youth in scaled white armor, kneeling in the grass in front of the king's pavilion making his vows to protect and defend king Aerys.--aGoT page 607 His sword helped taint the throne you sit on, Ned thought, but did not permit the words to pass his lips. "He swore a vow to protect his king's life with his own. Then he opened that king's throat with a sword." Ned's view of the vow of the kingsguard is given...it just does not support your decision... The vow that Ned cites is specific to Aerys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted September 6, 2014 Share Posted September 6, 2014 Reposted in case it was missed and because that last quote is screaming at me (and I hope everyone else) Thanks :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salazor Ahai Stormborn Posted September 6, 2014 Share Posted September 6, 2014 It matters for Ned. But he has no way of knowing what Rhaegar's plans were, what kind of man each KG was, what the KG did prior to his showing up, and whether Gerold Hightower would swear a vow to Rhaegar. So, IMO, it cannot matter to us more than GRRM's words - that they would not disobey Rhaegar's orders and that's why they were there. GRRM is the one who knows it all, not Ned Stark. I think you forget that the dream is mixed - reality and perception. IRL the dialog might have been totally different, but the dream reveals what Ned discovered after he founds Lyanna and Jon. He dreams an old dream - a recollection of the facts and what he later found out: that Jon was the king and the KG dies protecting him from Robert Baratheon's bff. In the dream Ned knows what happened later, who will live, who will die, and why. The dream's dialog means more than the real life dialog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Weirgaryen Posted September 6, 2014 Author Share Posted September 6, 2014 "as they had in life""In the dream as it had been in life."39 Eddard X hm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtnLion Posted September 6, 2014 Share Posted September 6, 2014 A KG vow? That's what he said? In my edition, he only said 'a vow'. That's a translated version, though. Is it a KG vow in English? This is the dialog in Ned's dream: The Kingsguard does not flee then or now, because (explained) we swore to protect (our) king's life with (our) own. Lord Commander Hightower says: The Kingsguard does not flee Arthur Dayne says: then or now Lord Commander Hightower explains: we swore a vow A vow means to Ned: to protect (our) king's life with (our) own. we (the Kingsguard) swore to protect the king's life with our own, so we would not flee with Viserys then, and we will not flee now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtnLion Posted September 6, 2014 Share Posted September 6, 2014 If one wants to challenge what Ned says the vow is, and remember that we are dealing with the dialog in Ned's dream, they must demonstrate that "vow" means something else to Ned. He remembered Jamie Lannister, a golden youth in scaled white armor, kneeling in the grass in front of the king's pavilion making his vows to protect and defend king Aerys.--aGoT page 607 His sword helped taint the throne you sit on, Ned thought, but did not permit the words to pass his lips. "He swore a vow to protect his king's life with his own. Then he opened that king's throat with a sword." Ned's view of the vow of the kingsguard is given...it just does not support your decision... The vow that Ned cites is specific to Aerys. King Aerys was the king. When Aerys dies he is succeeded immediately by a new king. The king is dead, long live the (new) king. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anath Posted September 6, 2014 Share Posted September 6, 2014 This is the dialog in Ned's dream: The Kingsguard does not flee then or now, because (explained) we swore to protect (our) king's life with (our) own. Lord Commander Hightower says: The Kingsguard does not flee Arthur Dayne says: then or now Lord Commander Hightower explains: we swore a vow A vow means to Ned: to protect (our) king's life with (our) own. we (the Kingsguard) swore to protect the king's life with our own, so we would not flee with Viserys then, and we will not flee now. Aha. That's your perception, then. Thanks. A vow might mean many things to Ned. That doesn't limit its meaning for the KG solely to Ned's meaning. That's also an answer to SAS above you - I agree the dialogue means much. But not more than GRRM's explicit reply to the question why they were there. Because Rhaegar ordered them to. That also encompass why they stayed there. He went to explicit lengths to add that they did not make their own decisions. All in the context of them obeying the orders they were given. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtnLion Posted September 6, 2014 Share Posted September 6, 2014 Aha. That's your perception, then. Thanks. A vow might mean many things to Ned. That doesn't limit its meaning for the KG solely to Ned's meaning. That's also an answer to SAS above you - I agree the dialogue means much. But not more than GRRM's explicit reply to the question why they were there. Because Rhaegar ordered them to. That also encompass why they stayed there. He went to explicit lengths to add that they did not make their own decisions. All in the context of them obeying the orders they were given. It is not my perception, that is directly from the books. It is Ned's dream, it makes sense to Ned. We as readers must try to put our reading comprehension to use in understanding Ned's POV. I dare say you are failing miserably, or deliberately. GRRM is not going to reveal why they fought Ned, is he? They may have stayed for a short period of time, on Rhaegar's orders, but they remained, creating the confrontation that Ned recalls in his dream, because of the vow to protect and defend the king with their own lives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mambru Posted September 6, 2014 Share Posted September 6, 2014 If Rhaegar had ordered them to stay at the tower, I am certain that they would, unless the king's life was in danger. Then you're assuming that they are allowed to DISOBEY orders based on their own personal judgement of whether the king is in danger or not. You're assuming that the KG are allowed to abandon anyone they've been ordered to protect if THEY decide that the king needs them more. You assume that, even though there is no such rule spelled out in the books. You assume that, even though we've never seen it happen in ANY of the books that a KG abandoned someone he'd been ordered to guard so that he could protect the king instead, and been condoned for it. You assume that, even though we've SEEN several instances of KG choosing to Obey over Protect, and not one case of a KG choosing the opposite. So basically, you're assuming the KG are allowed to abandon anyone they've been ordered to protect if they decide their king needs them more - without any evidence that they are so allowed, and indeed some evidence to the contrary. Not to mention it would be a stupid rule for a King to invent for his bodyguards...one that would allow them to abandon his dear old mum or his infant daughter in a warzone because THEY think the King is unprotected without a KG, even though he has a garrison with him. Also, you're assuming it when GRRM said: Shaw: Can you explain why the King's Guard chose to stand and fight Ned at the Tower of the Joy instead of protecting the remaining royal family members?Martin: The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that. They can't say, "No we don't like that order, we'll do something else." They protect the king BUT they're also bound to obey orders. He specifically mentions Rhaegar's order...even though Rhaegar is long dead by the time that the KG chose to stand and fight Ned at the Tower of Joy. Therefore by word of the author, Rhaegar's order remains in force despite his death since giving those orders. Maybe you should take it up with the author. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stateofdissipation Posted September 6, 2014 Share Posted September 6, 2014 King Aerys was the king. When Aerys dies he is succeeded immediately by a new king. The king is dead, long live the (new) king. if you add to protect the king and if you take away "Aerys" from what Ned knew the vow to be.... then what you added matches what remains of Ned knew. If you do not add what is not there and subtract what is there, there is no match.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mambru Posted September 6, 2014 Share Posted September 6, 2014 Reposted in case it was missed and because that last quote is screaming at me (and I hope everyone else) He trusted neither Pycelle nor Varys, and Ser Barristan WAS HONOR BOUND TO PROTECT AND DEFEND THE BOY HE THOUGHT WAS HIS NEW KING Yes. But that doesn't prove that that's the ONLY thing he's honor bound to do...he's also "bound to obey" his orders. Nor does that quote show he's allowed to Disobey in order to Protect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted September 6, 2014 Share Posted September 6, 2014 Aha. That's your perception, then. Thanks. A vow might mean many things to Ned. That doesn't limit its meaning for the KG solely to Ned's meaning. Wrong. A vow means exactly what it says to Ned, and we know that directly from the books. Otherwise he wouldn't have looked upon Jaime Lannister with so much disgust even though Jaime's actions helped win his war against Aerys. His sword helped taint the throne you sit on, Ned thought, but he did not permit the words to pass his lips. “He swore a vow to protect his king’s life with his own. Then he opened that king’s throat with a sword.” “I will,” Ned had promised her. That was his curse. Robert would swear undying love and forget them before evenfall, but Ned Stark kept his vows. He thought of the promises he’d made Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he’d paid to keep them. And we know exactly what the vows say from Barristan himself: "Ser Gerold Hightower himself heard my vows... to ward the king with all my strength... to give my blood for his..." If Ned thinks that Arthur Dayne was a 'shining example' of the KG, then he knows Dayne 'warded the king with all of his strength' and 'gave his blood for his king'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anath Posted September 6, 2014 Share Posted September 6, 2014 It is not my perception, that is directly from the books. It is Ned's dream, it makes sense to Ned. We as readers must try to put our reading comprehension to use in understanding Ned's POV. I dare say you are failing miserably, or deliberately. GRRM is not going to reveal why they fought Ned, is he? They may have stayed for a short period of time, on Rhaegar's orders, but they remained, creating the confrontation that Ned recalls in his dream, because of the vow to protect and defend the king with their own lives. It is your perception. And you're doing a great job in making it all about Ned... to fellow Rhaegar fans, I mean. No one else takes your ramblings about Harrenhall being just like a modern beauty contest with Rhaegar the unbiased judge seriously... or your attempts to make Ned this all-knowing sage who knew everyone else's soul and the only one whose reasoning is valid for everyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtnLion Posted September 6, 2014 Share Posted September 6, 2014 It is your perception. And you're doing a great job in making it all about Ned... to fellow Rhaegar fans, I mean. No one else takes your ramblings about Harrenhall being just like a modern beauty contest with Rhaegar the unbiased judge seriously... or your attempts to make Ned this all-knowing sage who knew everyone else's soul and the only one whose reasoning is valid for everyone else. Quite the opposite, I see where you are trying to read things into the text that do not exist. You are coloring the canon with your own desires, which in no way reflect the story as it has been told. You are even trying to color me as a Rhaegar fan, which I am not. But, I will henceforth ignore you. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtnLion Posted September 6, 2014 Share Posted September 6, 2014 if you add to protect the king Why? You quoted it: He remembered Jamie Lannister, a golden youth in scaled white armor, kneeling in the grass in front of the king's pavilion making his vows to protect and defend king Aerys.--aGoT page 607 If one wants to challenge what Ned says the vow is, and remember that we are dealing with the dialog in Ned's dream, they must demonstrate that "vow" means something else to Ned. He remembered Jamie Lannister, a golden youth in scaled white armor, kneeling in the grass in front of the king's pavilion making his vows to protect and defend king Aerys.--aGoT page 607 His sword helped taint the throne you sit on, Ned thought, but did not permit the words to pass his lips. "He swore a vow to protect his king's life with his own. Then he opened that king's throat with a sword." Ned's view of the vow of the kingsguard is given...it just does not support your decision... The vow that Ned cites is specific to Aerys. King Aerys == The King Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stateofdissipation Posted September 6, 2014 Share Posted September 6, 2014 "as they had in life" "In the dream as it had been in life." 39 Eddard X hm. In the dream they were only shadows, grey wraiths on horses made of mist.--aGoT page 409 hm And these were no shadows, their faces burned clear even now--aGoT page 409 hm A storm of rose petals blew across the blood-streaked sky, blue as the eyes of death.--aGoT page 410 hm I might mention, though, that Ned's account, which you refer to, was in the context of a dream... and a fever dream at that. Our dreams are not always literal.--GRRM http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Category/C91/P60 HM Wraiths on horses made of mist... men in white cloaks with burning faces... a storm of rose petals across a blood streaked sky... as they had been in life? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtnLion Posted September 6, 2014 Share Posted September 6, 2014 In the dream they were only shadows, grey wraiths on horses made of mist.--aGoT page 409 hm And these were no shadows, their faces burned clear even now--aGoT page 409 hm A storm of rose petals blew across the blood-streaked sky, blue as the eyes of death.--aGoT page 410 hm I might mention, though, that Ned's account, which you refer to, was in the context of a dream... and a fever dream at that. Our dreams are not always literal.--GRRM http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Category/C91/P60 HM Wraiths on horses made of mist... men in white cloaks with burning faces... a storm of rose petals across a blood streaked sky... as they had been in life? Ygrain's study of the real versus symbolic portions of the dream. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stateofdissipation Posted September 6, 2014 Share Posted September 6, 2014 Why? You quoted it: He remembered Jamie Lannister, a golden youth in scaled white armor, kneeling in the grass in front of the king's pavilion making his vows to protect and defend king Aerys.--aGoT page 607 King Aerys == The King Yes.. the vow to protect and defend KING AERYS was a given.... King Aerys == The King Your desire to scratch off Aerys is well established. You claimed that we must interpret the vow in terms of Ned's understanding... however you seem to have an issue accepting Ned's understanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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